Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[davo78]

In my humble opinion, Hawthorn are sh*t.

maybe. at least we don't cheat by using performance enhancing drugs. that's a fact, not a humble opinion.

 

[WWSD]

Hodge at 1 as well. But just pointing out Hawks success was built entirely on the draft

Premiership players under Clarkson who weren’t first round picks:

Williams
Gibson
McEvoy
Burgoyne
Bateman
Young
Sewell
Lake
Gunston
Hale
Breust
Stratton
Shiels
Spangher
Puopolo
Langford
Brown
Dew
Simpkin
Suckling
Renouf
Campbell
Gilham

 

[Bulldog Joe]

It's an odd thing to say about a premiership team with the fewest players acquired via the National Draft than any other premier of the past 15 years.

Recruited from other clubs + Upgraded rookies

11 - 2014 Hawks: Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, Gunston, McEvoy, Hale, Spangher, Breust, Puopolo, Suckling, Langford
10 - 2015 Hawks: Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, Gunston, McEvoy, Hale, Frawley, Breust, Puopolo, Suckling
10 - 2013 Hawks: Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, Gunston, Hale, Guerra, Simpkin, Breust, Puopolo, Sewell
10 - 2005 Swans: Hall, Schneider, Williams, Davis, Jolly, Ball, Bolton, Kirk, Bevan, Kennelly
10 - 2012 Swans: Kennedy, Shaw, Richards, Mattner, Mumford, Morton, Jack, Grundy, Smith, Pyke
10 - 2019 Tigers: Prestia, Houli, Caddy, Nankervis, Lynch, Lambert, Castagna, Soldo, Baker, Pickett
9 - 2010 Magpies: Ball, Jolly, L.Brown, Maxwell, Toovey, Lumumba, Wellingham, Blair, Macaffer
8 - 2017 Tigers: Prestia, Houli, Caddy, Nankervis, Grigg, Lambert, Castagna, Townsend
8 - 2008 Hawks - Croad, Dew, Guerra, Gilham, Sewell, Osborne, Campbell, Young
7 - 2018 Eagles: Kennedy, Yeo, Jetta, Redden, Cripps, Vardy, McGovern
7 - 2006 Eagles - Chick, Stenglein, Armstrong, Cox, Fletcher, Lynch, B.Jones
7 - 2016 Doggies: T.Boyd, M.Boyd, Morris, Picken, Johanissen, Dahlhaus, Biggs
5 - 2009 Cats: Ottens, Harley, Mooney, Rooke, Byrnes
5 - 2007 Cats: Ottens, Harley, Mooney, Rooke, Byrnes
1 - 2011 Cats: Ottens

I think you can count upgraded rookies as drafted.

I also assume you meant 2005 Swans

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Premiership players under Clarkson who weren’t first round picks:

Williams
Gibson
McEvoy
Burgoyne
Bateman
Young
Sewell
Lake
Gunston
Hale
Breust
Stratton
Shiels
Spangher
Puopolo
Langford
Brown
Dew
Simpkin
Suckling
Renouf
Campbell

Congratulations you have a team that wasn’t entirely first round picks. Your core was though.

 

[Bombfire]

The one bright point of the past 2 weeks has been Will Day though, clearly not 100% ready physically but definitely belongs.

Had Clarko not believed he was entitled to be extravagant and left Wingard alone, Day and Burton and Butters would just about have got him through to another contract.
Almost a certainty now Clarko will he moved on.
The ‘Hawthorn way’ is redundant.

 

[WWSD]

Had Clarko not believed he was entitled to be extravagant and left Wingard alone, Day and Burton and Butters would just about have got him through to another contract.
Almost a certainty now Clarko will he moved on.
The ‘Hawthorn way’ is redundant.

Thanks Dodo.

 

[Bradkli]

Had Clarko not believed he was entitled to be extravagant and left Wingard alone, Day and Burton and Butters would just about have got him through to another contract.
Almost a certainty now Clarko will he moved on.
The ‘Hawthorn way’ is redundant.

Whilst i agree it was a very average trade, it was Burton and pick 18 (Xavier Duursma) for Wingard..not Zak Butters.. and yes i know duursma is going to an excellent player, coincidentally the exact player we need at the moment with Tom Scully and Ricky Henderson both cooked.

However, we will never know who we would have picked at pick 18 had we kept the pick.. we could have ended up with a dud.

 

[Back One Out]

I think you can count upgraded rookies as drafted.

Nah... They're the kids who nobody really wanted. The Hawks have used late draft picks and the Rookie draft. The main premise of the thread (and Happy Mastenator's point) is that there's a smallish pool of highly-talented kids who are snapped up every year in the National Draft and that over the past several years, Hawthorn have ignored this at their peril.

Saying their 2013-2015 success was "built entirely on the draft" is a furphy

1) it's not really saying anything, because every team (apart from Hawks 2020) has their share of good players taken in the draft.
2) it's less true of those successful Hawthorn teams than any other premier of the past 15 years.

Those Hawks premiership teams were characterised by players taken from everywhere: draft, rookies, trades, FA, etc...

 

[Bulldog Joe]

Nah... They're the kids who nobody really wanted. The Hawks have used late draft picks and the Rookie draft. The main premise of the thread (and Happy Mastenator's point) is that there's a smallish pool of highly-talented kids who are snapped up every year in the National Draft and that over the past several years, Hawthorn have ignored this at their peril.

Fair enough, but all the premiership teams have had some.

Collingwood (2010) and Bulldogs (2016) both contained 6 home grown rookies as well as high quality draft picks.

 

[Back One Out]

Will day looks talented. Every other club has 10+ Will Days.

No. Just the cellar-dwellers who tanked and won wooden spoons and got all the good draft picks

A few years ago I could get by watching terrible performance after terrible performance knowing we had a dozen or so very promising young players. I am reasonably confident that this strategy will pay off for my club and recent on field results would support that.

Can't wait to watch you fall.

Congratulations on your crap club finally getting it's act together after 2 decades of failure and Top 5 draft picks

2 seasons from the past 18 when the Blues had a win% greater than .500

You must be really proud of your boys' sparkling 3-4 record in 2020.

 

[Jobe Watson]

Reality is starting to hit Hawthorn supporters hard.

 

[Toump Ass]

I remember when every hawthorn assistant was "in waiting", many of which are now in their own right legendary coaches- hardwick, "bevo", simpson, fagen, ratten.
They show clarko on the weekend and he's sitting next to brendan bolton

He's that desperate he's asking the worst afl coach since neeld for help.

Clarko = cooked. Or maybe he's just lucky he had such nice assistants with him... hasn't won a final for five years and still hasn't committed to a rebuild.

Getting a bit of a Malthouse at Carlton vibe now, he's leaving the place a rabble.

 

[matey]

I remember when every hawthorn assistant was "in waiting", many of which are now in their own right legendary coaches- hardwick, "bevo", simpson, fagen, ratten.
They show clarko on the weekend and he's sitting next to brendan bolton

He's that desperate he's asking the worst afl coach since neeld for help.

Clarko = cooked. Or maybe he's just lucky he had such nice assistants with him... hasn't won a final for five years and still hasn't committed to a rebuild.

Getting a bit of a Malthouse at Carlton vibe now, he's leaving the place a rabble.

Thanks for your genuine concern .... these guys were in the charts when Demons last won a flag

 

[Toump Ass]

Thanks for your genuine concern .... these guys were in the charts when Demons last won a flag

It is fantastic that you still remember songs on the charts back when Melbourne Demons were winning flags, but you are in the wrong thread. This is the "Why did Hawthorn recruit potatos instead of use the draft" thread.

(Also the image you posted didn't work, maybe because you're so old, but good try anyway).

 

[La Dispute]

Yeh the whole 'I've seen 10+ (VFL) premierships' is a really weird flex. I'm far more content cruising around with a probable 50+ years of life remaining.

I guess it's going to be a rough one for the Hawks faithful, and they're going to have to steel themselves somehow - especially with their coach refusing to do the obvious thing and reset the playing list instead of continually cycling their shocking list over in a myopic attempt to protect his legacy.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Yeh the whole 'I've seen 10+ (VFL) premierships' is a really weird flex. I'm far more content cruising around with a probable 50+ years of life remaining.

I guess it's going to be a rough one for the Hawks faithful, and they're going to have to steel themselves somehow - especially with their coach refusing to do the obvious thing and reset the playing list instead of continually cycling their shocking list over in a myopic attempt to protect his legacy.

Nah it’s not rough, it’s what happens. Rebuilding would be rough if it was off the back of a failed list build that HD no success.

clarko isn’t trying to protect anything, his legacy is cemented as the best coach of his era, the club is responsible as a whole for the path we took.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

I remember when every hawthorn assistant was "in waiting", many of which are now in their own right legendary coaches- hardwick, "bevo", simpson, fagen, ratten.
They show clarko on the weekend and he's sitting next to brendan bolton

He's that desperate he's asking the worst afl coach since neeld for help.

Clarko = cooked. Or maybe he's just lucky he had such nice assistants with him... hasn't won a final for five years and still hasn't committed to a rebuild.

Getting a bit of a Malthouse at Carlton vibe now, he's leaving the place a rabble.

Couldn’t care less what he was as a head coach, he has been a great assistant in his time at the Hawks. Not next in line though.

 

[matey]

All the elite end draft picks has really helped Demons and Blues out over the last few decades. Hawks need to follow their lead .

 

[Walshawk]

I remember when every hawthorn assistant was "in waiting", many of which are now in their own right legendary coaches- hardwick, "bevo", simpson, fagen, ratten.
They show clarko on the weekend and he's sitting next to brendan bolton

He's that desperate he's asking the worst afl coach since neeld for help.

Clarko = cooked. Or maybe he's just lucky he had such nice assistants with him... hasn't won a final for five years and still hasn't committed to a rebuild.

Getting a bit of a Malthouse at Carlton vibe now, he's leaving the place a rabble.

Yes, only two top 4 finishes in the four seasons since we won a flag is disappointing. I think we can thank the coach for getting us there and blame the players for going out in straight sets.
Clarkson is still the best coach in the AFL. GWS would win the next four flags if he was coach. He would walk into his next job at any club on over $1m, so if he chooses not to rebuild and we stay mid table, we will have a new coach in 2023. Hawthorn won’t put up with mediocrity for long. If he stops playing Burgoyne, etc and we don’t pick up another batch of 25 year olds post season we know he wants to stick around past 2022. So be it.

 

[LordLucifer]

Was colour TV around then?

Yeah, colour TV arrived in Australia in 1974 which was the same year we saved your sorry arses by allowing Hawthorn to be a co-tenant at Princes Park.

 

[Chism]

I remember when every hawthorn assistant was "in waiting", many of which are now in their own right legendary coaches- hardwick, "bevo", simpson, fagen, ratten.
They show clarko on the weekend and he's sitting next to brendan bolton

He's that desperate he's asking the worst afl coach since neeld for help.

Clarko = cooked. Or maybe he's just lucky he had such nice assistants with him... hasn't won a final for five years and still hasn't committed to a rebuild.

Getting a bit of a Malthouse at Carlton vibe now, he's leaving the place a rabble.

This is actually very close to the truth as much as i hate agreeing with you!

I have a few family members ( In Laws ) that are staunch Hawks supporters and they have jumped off with what they are doing currently list wise which was a shock to me to hear it from their own mouths. They have all but given up chance of success with the current group and agree FULL rebuild mode is needed and now.

Don't get me wrong they love the club and have been members for 30+ years and always will be but it is the first time they think that rebuild time is needed with the current list. Is Clarko the man to do it? IMO of course he is but asking the question of does he want to, is a totally different matter.

That issue needs to resolved quickly before his contract is up or like you mentioned he will just keep plugging holes with other players to get him through ignoring the draft and much like Malthouse did with us leave the list a complete mess and a nightmare for the new coach coming in when / if they mutually move on.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

So this guy gets a holiday for calling a spade a spade?

He's calling out trolls who are trying to rubbish our club after a bad loss.

Mate, I could dine out on four flags in the last 13 years for at least the next decade.

You Hawk fans have nothing to feel insulted about, the AFL equalization system is set to bring down all the great/premiership teams (Richmond will feel the pinch within a year or two)

Any club that can threepeat during this stripped down era of salary cap and player retention (and lost this best player to a Flag rival) deserves nothing but the up most respect (Even if I hate ya mob lol)

 

[LordLucifer]

With Kennett coming out and stating Clarkson will depart Hawthorn at the end of 2021, I'm thinking that Clarkson might be fielding some offers at the end of this season to get out a year early.

I can't see him overseeing a rebuild via the draft and having to deal with a stack of young players, he is better suited to a ready-made list who are capable of playing finals. Mitchell is the ideal candidate to work with a young group going forward.

This makes me think that if things go horribly pear-shaped for the Giants, they may consider making an enquiry about Clarkson this year.

Might work out well for everyone except Cameron.

 

[Hawk Dork]

With Kennett coming out and stating Clarkson will depart Hawthorn at the end of 2021, I'm thinking that Clarkson might be fielding some offers at the end of this season to get out a year early.

I can't see him overseeing a rebuild via the draft and having to deal with a stack of young players, he is better suited to a ready-made list who are capable of playing finals. Mitchell is the ideal candidate to work with a young group going forward.

This makes me think that if things go horribly pear-shaped for the Giants, they may consider making an enquiry about Clarkson this year.

Might work out well for everyone except Cameron.

Carlton will offer a mill and a bit again a year
AFL will do the same and more to get him to one of their franchises

 

[WWSD]

With Kennett coming out and stating Clarkson will depart Hawthorn at the end of 2021, I'm thinking that Clarkson might be fielding some offers at the end of this season to get out a year early.

I can't see him overseeing a rebuild via the draft and having to deal with a stack of young players, he is better suited to a ready-made list who are capable of playing finals. Mitchell is the ideal candidate to work with a young group going forward.

This makes me think that if things go horribly pear-shaped for the Giants, they may consider making an enquiry about Clarkson this year.

Might work out well for everyone except Cameron.

GWS receive: Clarkson
Hawthorn receive: Giants 2020 + 2021 first round picks.

Clarkson is contracted. If any team wants him they are going to pay a hefty price.