Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[Gralin]

Hawthorn were pretty average during most of the 90s and early 2000s took the draft and early picks (however it was acquired) to build your core and team and good trading to get that 3 peat.

How unsuccessful we were in the 90s had little to do with our success later on.
The draft and the odd trade used to be the only options.
FA has opened up trading a lot more. More avenues to get players in, different costs for the different methods.
It's all limited resources it's just how you manage to use them.
What happend 18 years ago has little bearing on what happens today

 

[FairKouta]

How unsuccessful we were in the 90s had little to do with our success later on.
The draft and the odd trade used to be the only options.
FA has opened up trading a lot more. More avenues to get players in, different costs for the different methods.
It's all limited resources it's just how you manage to use them.
What happend 18 years ago has little bearing on what happens today

Was a response to the other poster saying you never bottomed out. Every team will go through a lean patch. It's all a cycle. Interesting times ahead for your team. Will be good to see what clarko does.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Do all Hawks fans on this thread think that they are still a chance at the silverware without bottoming out for a few years to stock up on draft picks ?
Is this current group plus coniglio/patton/Jenkins or however they get enough to win a premiership with the likes of Brisbane Richmond Gws West coast still relatively young and in the window for the next few years ?

Hawks fans have seen enough development in recent years from our own club to be bullish about what can happen.

 

[matey]

So Clarko is too good a coach to keep the Hawks out of the bottom 4 but over the last 6 weeks on numerous occasions he has spoken about how the Hawks are progressing in their 3rd rebuild/wave while he has been at the club. You can’t have both! Either many don’t listen when he speaks or they think he is no good and speaks s##t.

 

[cryptor]

How unsuccessful we were in the 90s had little to do with our success later on.
The draft and the odd trade used to be the only options.
FA has opened up trading a lot more. More avenues to get players in, different costs for the different methods.
It's all limited resources it's just how you manage to use them.
What happend 18 years ago has little bearing on what happens today

Also the ability to trade future picks has given clubs the ability to do deals that don't have to involve trading out players.

 

[citizen-erased]

Also the ability to trade future picks has given clubs the ability to do deals that don't have to involve trading out players.

True, but it also throws you to the mercy of destination trends.

During the flag years, it was easy to attract players.
Since then, outside Jaeger (which i believe was down to your medico who is now at Carlton) and Mitchell for a steal, the Hawks have slipped down that ladder with teams looking closer to contention attracting more talent.

Probably time to strike a balance.
Pick up the bargain trades where you can (Impey, Scully, Scrimshaw), but look to build your elite talent with the sharper picks.

Moves like the Wingard one were silly.
Losing a kid with a massive ceiling, and a 1st rd pick is not the way to rebuild.
Felt more like a move the contending Hawthorn would do.

 

[KermitJagger]

True, but it also throws you to the mercy of destination trends.

During the flag years, it was easy to attract players.
Since then, outside Jaeger (which i believe was down to your medico who is now at Carlton) and Mitchell for a steal, the Hawks have slipped down that ladder with teams looking closer to contention attracting more talent.

Probably time to strike a balance.
Pick up the bargain trades where you can (Impey, Scully, Scrimshaw), but look to build your elite talent with the sharper picks.

Moves like the Wingard one were silly.
Losing a kid with a massive ceiling, and a 1st rd pick is not the way to rebuild.
Felt more like a move the contending Hawthorn would do.

Our fitness boss went to Carlton, not the medico.

Burton's ceiling has yet to be proven. He's had 3 hamstring injuries this year already, and we managed to pick up a reasonable replacement in Scrimshaw who is a year younger for an absolute bargain. We already had a glut of half back flankers and similar players so he was more expendable.

There are only so many classy small forwards who can rotate into the midfield in the league, and we needed one with Cyril leaving. Wingard was more of a need.

 

[Furn2]

What you have to consider is that the draft pick v player equation is fluid, the value of each is like is like shares, they are only worth what people are willing to pay.

When Hawthorn built their empire from 2001-2005 with high picks it was a different time, drafts picks weren't as highly value and there where priority picks, gun players rarely moved and there was no free agency. A disgraced, sacked and past it Carey once got you pick 3, the Hawks effectively turned Hay, Thompson and Lonie into picks 7,14,18 and we traded in the no1 pick in a super draft. That's impossible now. It would take 5 years at the bottom to get the picks we got in 2004-5 alone.

Thing have gone the other way since with high picks being prized to the point you can get a contracted 24 year old McEvoy for pick 19 and a small drop in the 20s, a prime Tom Mitchell for pick 14 or even a Tom Lynch for nothing pick wise.

As I said earlier if all teams started trying to bring in proven players and ignore the draft then going there other way becomes much more viable again.

 

[Luv_our_club]

What you have to consider is that the draft pick v player equation is fluid, the value of each is like is like shares, they are only worth what people are willing to pay.

When Hawthorn built their empire from 2001-2005 with high picks it was a different time, drafts picks weren't as highly value and there where priority picks, gun players rarely moved and there was no free agency. A disgraced, sacked and past it Carey once got you pick 3, the Hawks effectively turned Hay, Thompson and Lonie into picks 7,14,18 and we traded in the no1 pick in a super draft. That's impossible now. It would take 5 years at the bottom to get the picks we got in 2004-5 alone.

Thing have gone the other way since with high picks being prized to the point you can get a contracted 24 year old McEvoy for pick 19 and a small drop in the 20s, a prime Tom Mitchell for pick 14 or even a Tom Lynch for nothing pick wise.

As I said earlier if all teams started trying to bring in proven players and ignore the draft then going there other way becomes much more viable again.

Clarko and the club would have put this into a formula and modeled it over and over, partly using the knowledge and experiences they gained from visiting overseas leagues. Even if I and others can't think 3 season into the future, Clarko can.

The way to build a team has changed and the Hawks will prove it.

 

[Pessimistic]

True, but it also throws you to the mercy of destination trends.

During the flag years, it was easy to attract players.
Since then, outside Jaeger (which i believe was down to your medico who is now at Carlton) and Mitchell for a steal, the Hawks have slipped down that ladder with teams looking closer to contention attracting more talent.

Probably time to strike a balance.
Pick up the bargain trades where you can (Impey, Scully, Scrimshaw), but look to build your elite talent with the sharper picks.

Moves like the Wingard one were silly.
Losing a kid with a massive ceiling, and a 1st rd pick is not the way to rebuild.
Felt more like a move the contending Hawthorn would do.

At least he'll never get that ceiling and come back to bite us at Port

 

[Pessimistic]

What you have to consider is that the draft pick v player equation is fluid, the value of each is like is like shares, they are only worth what people are willing to pay.

When Hawthorn built their empire from 2001-2005 with high picks it was a different time, drafts picks weren't as highly value and there where priority picks, gun players rarely moved and there was no free agency. A disgraced, sacked and past it Carey once got you pick 3, the Hawks effectively turned Hay, Thompson and Lonie into picks 7,14,18 and we traded in the no1 pick in a super draft. That's impossible now. It would take 5 years at the bottom to get the picks we got in 2004-5 alone.

Thing have gone the other way since with high picks being prized to the point you can get a contracted 24 year old McEvoy for pick 19 and a small drop in the 20s, a prime Tom Mitchell for pick 14 or even a Tom Lynch for nothing pick wise.

As I said earlier if all teams started trying to bring in proven players and ignore the draft then going there other way becomes much more viable again.

Like shares, if you want to buy bargains, you need a nervous nellie who is off loading.
The main problem wit the current hawks strategy id everyone might realise bottoming out is fools gold and the bargains might dry up. the price of shiel and wingard sort of reinforces that.
Its heartening to know in this thread that theres plenty of bottom out evangelists left, even if its just BF posters

 

[stfan]

you can get a contracted 24 year old McEvoy for pick 19 and a small drop in the 20s,

That was not actually the trade at all.

 

[4THAWN]

That was not actually the trade at all.

Savage, 18 and 19 for Mcevoy 24 and 59. So cost essentially Savage, pick 18 and a slight downgrade in another pick to get a contracted 24 year old Mcevoy

 

[Pessimistic]

Savage, 18 and 19 for Mcevoy 24 and 59. So cost essentially Savage, pick 18 and a slight downgrade in another pick to get a contracted 24 year old Mcevoy

And they raised the average squad age. Shocking

 

[Timo pez]

Our fitness boss went to Carlton, not the medico.

Burton's ceiling has yet to be proven. He's had 3 hamstring injuries this year already, and we managed to pick up a reasonable replacement in Scrimshaw who is a year younger for an absolute bargain. We already had a glut of half back flankers and similar players so he was more expendable.

There are only so many classy small forwards who can rotate into the midfield in the league, and we needed one with Cyril leaving. Wingard was more of a need.

Burton has had a fair year at Port besides the hammies, but had a dog of a year last year and if hadn't of shown so much promise early would have been dropped from the team more than just the once. In addition, i dont know if he was your model team guy, with a notoriously big ego.

 

[cryptor]

True, but it also throws you to the mercy of destination trends.

During the flag years, it was easy to attract players.
Since then, outside Jaeger (which i believe was down to your medico who is now at Carlton) and Mitchell for a steal, the Hawks have slipped down that ladder with teams looking closer to contention attracting more talent.

Probably time to strike a balance.
Pick up the bargain trades where you can (Impey, Scully, Scrimshaw), but look to build your elite talent with the sharper picks.

Moves like the Wingard one were silly.
Losing a kid with a massive ceiling, and a 1st rd pick is not the way to rebuild.
Felt more like a move the contending Hawthorn would do.

I feel like you’re trying too hard here to make excuses for why the players we’ve managed to attract recently aren’t legitimately good signings.

It will be interesting to see what it eventuates for Hawthorn this post-season. The talk this year suggests we plan to again be very active in trade week.

 

[Bradkli]

Has anyone mentioned that Mitchell Lewis was pick 76 and James worpel was pick 45???? Both would be top 10 picks if draft was tomorrow... elite talent


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[Maxabillions]

Bruce just said Hawks have 8 players over 30 playing tonight??? Concerning if true

 

[Bradkli]

Bruce just said Hawks have 8 players over 30 playing tonight??? Concerning if true

Their 3 best players have been Lewis, worpel and omera. How old are they??

 

[Maxabillions]

Their 3 best players have been Lewis, worpel and omera. How old are they??

Hmmm yeah it’s not those players they have to worry about

 

[cryptor]

Bruce just said Hawks have 8 players over 30 playing tonight??? Concerning if true

Looking at the scoreboard, not concerned. Rather be old and winning.

 

[Maxabillions]

Looking at the scoreboard, not concerned. Rather be old and winning.

What are your thoughts on being old and not making finals?

 

[cryptor]

What are your thoughts on being old and not making finals?

I’m ok with it given our injuries to some of our best players and the development of our younger ones. Not going to make finals every year.

 

[beta_condition]

What are your thoughts on being old and not making finals?

What are your thoughts on making finals and then losing by 15 goals?

 

[Cadillac]

If you’re Coniglio surely you have no interest at all in going to Hawthorn. They are miles off being contenders. Go to Carlton and earn an extra 200K+ a season than what Hawks can offer. And be a genuine contender in two years.