Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[Sonny Hayes]

Oh this thread is on the front page again, nice.

Hope we trade out O'meara, Mitchell, Wingard, Scully, Sicily, Gunston and Breust next week for a bunch of Draft picks because that guarantees a premiership i hear.

 

[Wojcinski]

We've won the same number of prelims as Geelong has in the last 4 years. The difference is we've won 4 prelims since Geelong won their last. Which apart from rendering any dick measuring contest over before it began, also means we should be behind schedule compared to Geelong on rebuilding our next flag tilt given Geelong's last prelim win was 8 years ago now.

Geelong were a massive 1 month average age younger than the Hawthorn team that beat them in round 18, and we had the oldest player in the competition out on the park. Our list age was slightly deceptive this year compared to the best 22's age because players like Roughy and Birchall sat out for the majority of the year.

Personally, I appreciate your input, because I see Geelong as a cautionary tale about how chasing a rebuild on the fly can go horribly wrong. And from that point of view, you have a valuable perspective, having been up close to a failed attempt at what Hawthorn are now trying to achieve.

Given our 3 wins against the preliminary finalists during the last 8 rounds of the season I reckon we are much better placed for success in 2020 than Geelong who is losing the runner up in their best and fairest, while Hawthorn is getting the 2018 Brownlow medalist back in its side.

Incidentally, using your bizarre logic, Kelly was a failed recruitment because he's headed back home so soon and didn't win a Brownlow while at Geelong.

Kelly is a successful recruit because the Cats got 2 excellent seasons out of him and will get a number of high draft picks in return with the only real cost being pick 24.

Wins against finals teams are a great start, but with the oldest team in the league you would expect them to be competing with the best in the finals. Old teams have usually reached their ceilings like the Cats in 2011 or the Hawks in 2015 had.

No one that supports a team other than Hawthorn expects them to improve next year, even with the addition of Mitchell, Patton and maybe some other top ups. The core that Hawthorn relies on is a mix of prime and exciting players such as Sicily, O'Meara, Mitchell and Impey as well as older veterans like Smith, Breust, Burgoyne, Stratton, Puopolo, Frawley and McEvoy. It is completely reasonable to think that none of these players will improve and many in the latter group will continue a downwards trajectory as most footballers naturally do in the later years playing.

The only players in Hawthorns current pre-draft/trade best 22 that should improve further are Worpel, Scrimshaw and Hardwick. I don't see where the overall team improvement is coming from next season?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

lol you keep attacking me and my club when neither of them have anything to do with Hawthorns list. Don't get upset mate, Hawthorns list is in bad shape right now (mostly because of the recent success) and the list manager is making it worse by topping up with average mercenaries. Everyone can see it except you and it's great for the rest of the league.

Hang on tight to those cups because you won't see any again in the next 10 years minimum

I’m not attacking you I’m just stating facts and I have nothing to be upset about.

The most dominate side in recent memory is re-tooling and looking damn good already. I’m a Hawthorn supporter.

Geelong have topped up for zero reward and are desperately holding onto blokes who are cooked.

 

[Wojcinski]

I’m not attacking you I’m just stating facts and I have nothing to be upset about.

The most dominate side in recent memory is re-tooling and looking damn good already. I’m a Hawthorn supporter.

Geelong have topped up for zero reward and are desperately holding onto blokes who are cooked.

You obviously have no idea because your argument is the same every time "But but but Geelong!!!!"

 

[hk89]

Kelly is a successful recruit because the Cats got 2 excellent seasons out of him and will get a number of high draft picks in return with the only real cost being pick 24.

And yet Frawley is a recruit that missed the mark because we only got 1 flag and at least 5 years out of him, while picking him up for zero. Wojcinski logic.

Wins against finals teams are a great start, but with the oldest team in the league you would expect them to be competing with the best in the finals.

We didn't get a chance to beat them in the finals because we spent the first half of the year failing to cover for Mitchell. Worpel and Wingard got into gear in the midfield late in the season and we started collecting some impressive scalps, including Geelong's.

Old teams have usually reached their ceilings like the Cats in 2011 or the Hawks in 2015 had.

1 month older than the Geelong team we beat in round 18. 1 month.

No one that supports a team other than Hawthorn expects them to improve next year, even with the addition of Mitchell, Patton and maybe some other top ups.

Lol. Nobody expects Hawthorn to improve with the addition of the 2018 brownlow medalist? That's like saying nobody expects Geelong to get worse when Kelly returns to WA. More Wojcinski logic.

The only players in Hawthorns current pre-draft/trade best 22 that should improve further are Worpel, Scrimshaw and Hardwick. I don't see where the overall team improvement is coming from next season?

We don't need to improve much. We just beat 3 of the 4 prelim finalists in our run home, including your mob. How good do you want us to be? If we play all of next season like we played the last 8 rounds (which was seen as a very tough part of our draw) we'll play finals in 2020 with zero improvement, then we'll see if we can move from beating the teams who made the prelim during finals instead of just the H&A season.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You obviously have no idea because your argument is the same every time "But but but Geelong!!!!"

Actually it’s not, it’s that I am very happy with my successful club and the state of the list.

I’m just letting you know that your attention might be best served elsewhere.

 

[Wojcinski]

And yet Frawley is a recruit that missed the mark because we only got 1 flag and at least 5 years out of him, while picking him up for zero. Wojcinski logic.



We didn't get a chance to beat them in the finals because we spent the first half of the year failing to cover for Mitchell. Worpel and Wingard got into gear in the midfield late in the season and we started collecting some impressive scalps, including Geelong's.



1 month older than the Geelong team we beat in round 18. 1 month.



Lol. Nobody expects Hawthorn to improve with the addition of the 2018 brownlow medalist? That's like saying nobody expects Geelong to get worse when Kelly returns to WA. More Wojcinski logic.



We don't need to improve much. We just beat 3 of the 4 prelim finalists in our run home, including your mob. How good do you want us to be? If we play all of next season like we played the last 8 rounds (which was seen as a very tough part of our draw) we'll play finals in 2020 with zero improvement, then we'll see if we can move from beating the teams who made the prelim during finals instead of just the H&A season.

Just a huge wall of excuses, the reason why this thread is nearly 300 pages long.

Oldest list
Oldest best 22
10 30+ year olds in 2019
Didn't make finals
Chasing a dud FF off his third ACL
Gun mid coming back from broken leg

...but will dominate in 2020.

 

[Wojcinski]

Actually it’s not, it’s that I am very happy with my successful club and the state of the list.

I’m just letting you know that your attention might be best served elsewhere.

Well this is a thread on the mainboard about Hawthorns list, if you can't handle people discussing the state of the Hawks list without crying then maybe you need some time away from BigFooty.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Well this is a thread on the mainboard about Hawthorns list, if you can't handle people discussing the state of the Hawks list without crying then maybe you need some time away from BigFooty.

I have nothing to be upset about.

If I’d watched my club top up for 8yrs without success....then I’d be a little frazzled.

 

[Wojcinski]

I have nothing to be upset about.

If I’d watched my club top up for 8yrs without success....then I’d be a little frazzled.

Again trying to attack me about Geelong lmao. You've got nothing

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Again trying to attack me about Geelong lmao. You've got nothing

 

[Wojcinski]

As I said, you've got nothing

 

[hk89]

Just a huge wall of excuses, the reason why this thread is nearly 300 pages long.

Oldest list
Oldest best 22
10 30+ year olds in 2019
Didn't make finals
Chasing a dud FF off his third ACL
Gun mid coming back from broken leg

...but will dominate in 2020.

Beat Geelong, WC , GWS, Pies in last 8 weeks of season. Getting best player back in 2020. Don't really need to add any more than that do I?

 

[Wojcinski]

Beat Geelong, WC , GWS, Pies in last 8 weeks of season. Getting best player back in 2020. Don't really need to add any more than that do I?

My point is that the list isn't getting better because it is already old. We both know older players can drop off very quickly and my opinion is that Hawthorn relies on too many of the older guys.

You and some of the other Hawthorn posters have to realise that the question raised in this topic is "Will the Hawks succeed without drafting talented players" which I don't think they will. You obviously do, you don't need to continually make excuses as to why they haven't done so yet, clearly not everyone shares the same opinions as you so you make it impossible for there to even be a discussion instead. It's a really weird thread.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

You must be really disappointed with Geelong's efforts over recent years then Wojcinski.

Far greater reliance on their oldest players, yet nothing to show for it.

Dangerfield, Ablett, Selwood, (Duncan), Kelly leaving - vs Mitchell, O'Meara, Worpel, Wingard.

Expect the four Hawks to improve as fitness/maturity improve. Expect the four Cats to deteriorate as age catches up.

I expect Cats to go backwards next year, and Hawthorn to improve - even without allowing for the loss of Kelly.

 

[Wojcinski]

You must be really disappointed with Geelong's efforts over recent years then Wojcinski.

Far greater reliance on their oldest players, yet nothing to show for it.

Dangerfield, Ablett, Selwood, (Duncan), Kelly leaving - vs Mitchell, O'Meara, Worpel, Wingard.

Expect the four Hawks to improve as fitness/maturity improve. Expect the four Cats to deteriorate as age catches up.

I expect Cats to go backwards next year, and Hawthorn to improve - even without allowing for the loss of Kelly.

That's fine, what has Geelong got to do with it though?

 

[juss]

Oh this thread is on the front page again, nice.

Hope we trade out O'meara, Mitchell, Wingard, Scully, Sicily, Gunston and Breust next week for a bunch of Draft picks because that guarantees a premiership i hear.

You're obviously taking the piss, but the funny irony is that Hawthorn's dominance was built on the team core of their high draft picks.

Hodge, Rioli, Franklin, Roughead Lewis, Birchall. Probably 6/10 of the core excluding Burgoyne, Mitchell, Gibson and possibly Lake/Gunston?
That's more than half of that essential group that came from the high draft picks.

 

[4THAWN]

My point is that the list isn't getting better because it is already old. We both know older players can drop off very quickly and my opinion is that Hawthorn relies on too many of the older guys.

You and some of the other Hawthorn posters have to realise that the question raised in this topic is "Will the Hawks succeed without drafting talented players" which I don't think they will. You obviously do, you don't need to continually make excuses as to why they haven't done so yet, clearly not everyone shares the same opinions as you so you make it impossible for there to even be a discussion instead. It's really weird a thread.

Ablett - 36
Blicavs - 29
Dangerfield - 30
Duncan - 29
Hawkins 32
Henderson - 30
Rohan - 29
Selwood - 32
Taylor - 34
Tuohy - 30



but according to you we are the team with too heavy of a reliance on our older players. Get a grip mate.

Of your top 10 in the BnF, 6 are 29 or older and the best young player of them all is leaving to West Coast.

 

[Aramis]

Yeah no you're right trading out high draft picks for potatos and failing to win finals is the goal

Yeh sorry I forgot you guys were the benchmark for winning finals and flags over the last 8 years.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

As I said, you've got nothing

I’ve got the most recent premiership memorabilia of the two of us.

 

[Wojcinski]

Ablett - 36
Blicavs - 29
Dangerfield - 30
Duncan - 29
Hawkins 32
Henderson - 30
Rohan - 29
Selwood - 32
Taylor - 34
Tuohy - 30



but according to you we are the team with too heavy of a reliance on our older players. Get a grip mate.

Of your top 10 in the BnF, 6 are 29 or older and the best young player of them all is leaving to West Coast.

Literally every single player age in that list is listed as older than they actually are, if you're going to troll then do it with actual facts. 6 of the top 10 were 28 or under.

Yeh sorry I forgot you guys were the benchmark for winning finals and flags over the last 8 years.

Every response is "but but we won flags years ago" or "omg wat about geelonk!!!"

None of that changes your current list issues. Geelong was clearly the second best team in 2019, pushing the Tigers in the prelim missing 5 best 22 players and eventually going down by 19 points. The Tigers won their other two finals by 47 and 89 points. This isn't about Geelong though so get some new material or at least some rational arguements.

 

[Wojcinski]

I’ve got the most recent premiership memorabilia of the two of us.

Congratulations, I'm sure that will assist the players on the park in 2020

 

[Aramis]

Literally every single player age in that list is listed as older than they actually are, if you're going to troll then do it with actual facts. 6 of the top 10 were 28 or under.

Every response is "but but we won flags years ago" or "omg wat about geelonk!!!"

None of that changes your current list issues. Geelong was clearly the second best team in 2019, pushing the Tigers in the prelim missing 5 best 22 players and eventually going down by 19 points. The Tigers won their other two finals by 47 and 89 points. This isn't about Geelong though so get some new material or at least some rational arguements.

Actually, I revert you back to my post which was an over the top analysis of your drivel which you conveniently ignored. Go read that and learning something.

 

[Gralin]

Sun's priority package dropped our first pick to 11 does that still count as elite if we use it at the draft?

 

[4THAWN]

Literally every single player age in that list is listed as older than they actually are, if you're going to troll then do it with actual facts. 6 of the top 10 were 28 or under.

Every response is "but but we won flags years ago" or "omg wat about geelonk!!!"

None of that changes your current list issues. Geelong was clearly the second best team in 2019, pushing the Tigers in the prelim missing 5 best 22 players and eventually going down by 19 points. The Tigers won their other two finals by 47 and 89 points. This isn't about Geelong though so get some new material or at least some rational arguements.

literally every single one of those players will be a year older next season