Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

BJK#5

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Patton the secondary ruck or Lewis?

Is the Big boy defensive move an actual thing or more a gimmick/tactic for certain teams?
I genuinely do not know, i would be surprised if Big Boy was going to be moved down back but Clarko is just a little bit crazy so who knows. I also feel like Cegs must have had some sort of role guaranteed to hang around because he showed at the end of the season that he is capable of holding his own as an AFL level ruckmen.

I would kind of hope Big Boy is our number 1 option with Lewis chipping in when needed. I don't want to risk Patton in the ruck (except for maybe some forward stoppages). Big Boy is really strong aerobically and will be able to take the bulk of the ruck work.
 

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Vindicater

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 16, 2013
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Have Hawthorn fans forgotten that their team were sitting in the bottom 4 as late as Round 15? They saved themselves by getting a few junk time wins at end the season when the pressure was off, but they were crap for most of 2019. Hawthorn's list isn't tracking in any direction but downwards and they will again slump in 2020. There are plenty of better teams with more scope for improvement.
I am not that bad on them.

I think they have arrested the slide but to do that they have limited their top potential.

They will be 5th-12th for number of years. Likely yoyoing up and down based on scehdule.
 

sr36

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Richmond supporters sure are stubborn.

Is beating Collingwood 14 of 15 times once?

Is beating West Coast 10 of 14 times once?
Hawthorn are more then capable of knocking off any of the top eight teams on their day. Except for Richmond.
A lot of the wins you are referencing are from when you were dominant and are thus irrelevant.

Your wins against the Pies over the last two years are relevant, but when you look at them in context they're not as relevant as you're suggesting: Rd 1 2018, before we'd got our shit together. Mid year this year, when we were playing crap, struggled to beat Carlton, lost to Freo, lost to North, lost to Hawks.

You were a middle of the road team over the last two years, you beat some of the top 6 teams and you lost to some of bottom 6 teams. Same as most of the other middle of the road teams. All it really says is that its a pretty even comp, where everyone is a chance on the right day. And unless the right day is a final you shouldn't hold too much stock in a couple of wins or a couple of losses.
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
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No you are just ignoring the point.

Hawks fans are not saying it makes them better than those teams, it shows that in the crunch time of the season we could match it with them. We need to improve on consistency and maintaining the level of those teams but we have the ability.
Except that it doesn't.

Crunch time of the season was when you turned 5-5 into 5-9 and all but killed off your finals chances.

5-6 in, 6-5 out isn't that noteworthy. Hawthorn aren't terrible by any means, I tipped middle third of the ladder this year and that's where they finished having never really challenged the top or bottom 4 for a spot, but they aren't a team full of kids either.

Who goes out of the Rd 23 team? Average age of 27, 2990 total games played, 7 players 30 or over. Injuries permitting I would expect Mitchell (26, 111 games), Frost (26, 91) and Patton (26, 89) to go in at the expense of maybe Nash (21, 19), Hanrahan (21, 9) and Howe (23, 62). Possible Puopolo goes out or one of the ruckmen but they aren't like for like swaps. Impey could also return but from memory he was injured pretty late in the year so probably not straight away. Lewis also didn't play so I would expect him in also. Lewis, O'Brien, Patton, McEvoy, Ceglar + Gunston at once is probably too tall.
 

juss

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No you are just ignoring the point.

Hawks fans are not saying it makes them better than those teams, it shows that in the crunch time of the season we could match it with them. We need to improve on consistency and maintaining the level of those teams but we have the ability.
And this is different to any other bottom team knocking off a top team how? This is not unique to Hawthorn, bottom teams beat better teams every year.

It doesn't really mean much, just about every team has the "ability" to match better teams on their day.
 

ML4Hodgy

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Except that it doesn't.

Crunch time of the season was when you turned 5-5 into 5-9 and all but killed off your finals chances.

5-6 in, 6-5 out isn't that noteworthy. Hawthorn aren't terrible by any means, I tipped middle third of the ladder this year and that's where they finished having never really challenged the top or bottom 4 for a spot, but they aren't a team full of kids either.

Who goes out of the Rd 23 team? Average age of 27, 2990 total games played, 7 players 30 or over. Injuries permitting I would expect Mitchell (26, 111 games), Frost (26, 91) and Patton (26, 89) to go in at the expense of maybe Nash (21, 19), Hanrahan (21, 9) and Howe (23, 62). Possible Puopolo goes out or one of the ruckmen but they aren't like for like swaps. Impey could also return but from memory he was injured pretty late in the year so probably not straight away. Lewis also didn't play so I would expect him in also. Lewis, O'Brien, Patton, McEvoy, Ceglar + Gunston at once is probably too tall.
That ‘crunch time of the season’ coincided with a inside midfield of:
O’meara, Shiels, Worpel, and some of Cousins, Howe, Morrison who were in/out.
That was our weakness during the season. Worpel improved as the year went on, Wingard went in late and showed that was his spot, and Mitchell will be back. It’s a massive improvement and goes from close to the worst in the comp to a strength.
That’s where hawks fans see the most improvement for next year (IMO).
 

Marcel Proust

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Beat literally every team you just listed this season, with a side weaker than what we will put out on the park in 2020.
Anyone is capable of beating anyone one off.

What I mean by 'able to match it' is have a similar number of wins at the end of the regular season

And the Demons had a young highly talented list that most would have been projecting them upwards and we all know how that panned out this year. Being young doesn't guarantee anything.

The AFL has plenty of good teams at the moment but it is about as open as it has been in a very long time. A good run with injury at the right time of the year and timing a run through finals and you give yourself every chance to be contending at the end of the season.
small sample size. We will have a better idea where Melbourne are at in 12 months, i think.

like you say they too have good young prospects. Would not surprise if they leapfrog the hawks
 

parsons nose

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As the above poster mentions, the midfield took on a different complexion late- to the betterment of the side. Mitchell adds to this. Also significant was the improvement of Lewis and O’Brien, culminating in our best scores in the last two games of the season. Patton will add to this. It will be a vastly different side running out in round 1, both development wise (Lewis, O’Brien, Wingard, Scully and Worpel) and personnel wise (Mitchell, Patton, Frost) to the one that struggled in the early part of last season. Only an idiot would ignore our late form reversal.
 

Marcel Proust

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As the above poster mentions, the midfield took on a different complexion late- to the betterment of the side. Mitchell adds to this. Also significant was the improvement of Lewis and O’Brien, culminating in our best scores in the last two games of the season. Patton will add to this. It will be a vastly different side running out in round 1, both development wise (Lewis, O’Brien, Wingard, Scully and Worpel) and personnel wise (Mitchell, Patton, Frost) to the one that struggled in the early part of last season. Only an idiot would ignore our late form reversal.
Carlton won some games too
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
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That ‘crunch time of the season’ coincided with a inside midfield of:
O’meara, Shiels, Worpel, and some of Cousins, Howe, Morrison who were in/out.
That was our weakness during the season. Worpel improved as the year went on, Wingard went in late and showed that was his spot, and Mitchell will be back. It’s a massive improvement and goes from close to the worst in the comp to a strength.
That’s where hawks fans see the most improvement for next year (IMO).
Every team could say the same thing, though. We took a premiership team and added Gaff back in and went backwards a bit. We banked on Naitanui coming back and he played 5 games. We hoped to see more from young players like Duggan and Venables and they got injured. I bet Richmond would love to bank on having Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Lynch, Rance all available for every game.

Like every single team you have to balance who/what will get better against who/what will get worse.
 

BJK#5

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Anyone is capable of beating anyone one off.

What I mean by 'able to match it' is have a similar number of wins at the end of the regular season



small sample size. We will have a better idea where Melbourne are at in 12 months, i think.

like you say they too have good young prospects. Would not surprise if they leapfrog the hawks
Just another example of being young is more important than being good. They finished 2nd last this season yet somehow are still rated?

Bizarre
 

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Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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As the above poster mentions, the midfield took on a different complexion late- to the betterment of the side. Mitchell adds to this. Also significant was the improvement of Lewis and O’Brien, culminating in our best scores in the last two games of the season. Patton will add to this. It will be a vastly different side running out in round 1, both development wise (Lewis, O’Brien, Wingard, Scully and Worpel) and personnel wise (Mitchell, Patton, Frost) to the one that struggled in the early part of last season. Only an idiot would ignore our late form reversal.
Ran out games much better at the end of the season than the beginning. i was expecting it to be a little the other way
 

sr36

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As the above poster mentions, the midfield took on a different complexion late- to the betterment of the side. Mitchell adds to this. Also significant was the improvement of Lewis and O’Brien, culminating in our best scores in the last two games of the season. Patton will add to this. It will be a vastly different side running out in round 1, both development wise (Lewis, O’Brien, Wingard, Scully and Worpel) and personnel wise (Mitchell, Patton, Frost) to the one that struggled in the early part of last season. Only an idiot would ignore our late form reversal.
True, but only an idiot would ignore that late form reversals often amount to nothing the following year.
 

Socrates2

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Aug 11, 2015
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No, I don't believe they can. They lack quality and depth.They don't like the draft because they can't afford to bottom out like other clubs can. I think the Hawks are happy to sit at 6th to 12th for the next 5 years.
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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No, I don't believe they can. They lack quality and depth.They don't like the draft because they can't afford to bottom out like other clubs can. I think the Hawks are happy to sit at 6th to 12th for the next 5 years.
Pretty soon everyone will know the bottoming out is one of the great brainwashes. Look forward to you joining us

That would be a much better discussion. Is bottoming out the great lie?
 

Socrates2

Norm Smith Medallist
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Pretty soon everyone will know the bottoming out is one of the great brainwashes. Look forward to you joining us

That would be a much better discussion. Is bottoming out the great lie?
You need top 5 draft picks to get players like Franklin , Dustin Martin, Hodge, Whitfield, Jeremy Cameron, Josh Kelly, Clayton Oliver and Tom Lynch ect otherwise you have to be lucky.
 

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