Cardinal Pell honorary role with Richmond - Is this the last straw?

[telsor]

Very selective quoting there telsor. Perhaps you'd like to delve into the rationale behind my stance and join the ongoing discussion? For instance, seeing as his employer has suspended his activities for the duration of the trial, why shouldn't we? After all, our connection is very tenuous, and from a professional standpoint is no longer serving our interests (if it ever did).

Not really...To me it's simple.

Innocent until PROVEN guilty. (pretty fundamental principle...It's actually quite rare in history/cultures, but critical to the growth of a free society and is a topic well worth looking into).

He hasn't been proven guilty, therefore he should be treated as if he is innocent.


If you want to convince me otherwise, you're going to need to convince me that innocent until proven guilty is wrong, and that would be an extremely difficult task, well beyond what we're likely to find in an online forum.

 

[TJASTA]

Everybody deserves the presumption of innocent. Let the courts do their process, then the club will changed their position according.

 

[The Goon]

You’ve not read a lot into religion then I take it?

If the fundamentals of your religion are peaceful, the fundamentalists would be peaceful. But that’s just not true in the major religions. From Christianity to Islam the fundamentalists are dangerous. Unless you are talking about Jainism in which case I agree.

IMHO I've found that it's not religions that are fundamentally bad or good, it's the people that interpret them in light of their own agendas and cultures. Almost any religion grown to a significant size will have these extremist fringe elements. At the end of the day, religions are simply a reflection of our species.

Having said that, respectfully, perhaps we could take any further discussion to PM? It's not what this thread is for.

 

[The Goon]

Not really...To me it's simple.

Innocent until PROVEN guilty. (pretty fundamental principle...It's actually quite rare in history/cultures, but critical to the growth of a free society and is a topic well worth looking into).

He hasn't been proven guilty, therefore he should be treated as if he is innocent.


If you want to convince me otherwise, you're going to need to convince me that innocent until proven guilty is wrong, and that would be an extremely difficult task, well beyond what we're likely to find in an online forum.

We'll have to disagree there then mate, as innocence or guilt has little to do with my position. I believe the RFC has no benefit from associating with this man, and plenty of negatives. What has he done for us that we would continue to have him as our representative? Why not suspend him from this role, as his employer has done?

Please, if you're going to answer, address the points I've made instead of just going on about not being proven guilty again.

 

[Helen Wheels]

The principle of innocent until proven guilty is one of the main pillars of our legal system.
Evidence is weighed up in a sober, rational fashion according to our laws.
In a court of law, you get law.
People may be divided on what they consider to be just or unjust.

 

[biaseddustyfan]

just * the old campaigner off

 

[Ancient Tiger]

You’ve not read a lot into religion then I take it?

If the fundamentals of your religion are peaceful, the fundamentalists would be peaceful. But that’s just not true in the major religions. From Christianity to Islam the fundamentalists are dangerous. Unless you are talking about Jainism in which case I agree.

Have you read the Gospels?
In Christianity they are the most fundamental teachings you can get.
What is dangerous in them?

If you haven't read them, it is you that is poorly read.

 

[telsor]

We'll have to disagree there then mate, as innocence or guilt has little to do with my position. I believe the RFC has no benefit from associating with this man, and plenty of negatives. What has he done for us that we would continue to have him as our representative? Why not suspend him from this role, as his employer has done?

Please, if you're going to answer, address the points I've made instead of just going on about not being proven guilty again.

But that is the only relevant point.

If you want to avoid the substantive issue so you can discuss minor details, then what's the point?

It's like trying discussing the Palestinian situation by focusing on the table settling at the conference table.

 

[17Dream]

The 20th Century, with two world wars, was probably the most violent and destructive we have seen in human history.
I hope we do not see a repeat.
World War I was caused by German military and economic expansionism.
World War I led later to World War II encompassing Hitler's desire for revenge.
Again, economic strength was one of the reasons for Hitler's popularity throughout the 1930s.
Neither of those two conflicts were caused by religions.

 

[TigerImposter]

I have to laugh when an organisation is blamed and shot down bc of the actions of a few of it members. It’s like saying the police force is corrupt bc two policemen were busted drug trafficking or the medical system is incompetent bc one surgeon happened to leave scissors inside a patient or Councils are corrupt bc a Mayor was busted taking bribes from developers.

In this case Pell hasn’t even been convicted , yet the church is the blame. Now I challenge anybody to bring on here a Catholic doctrine stating that the church accepts abhorrent sex crimes in its teachings.
Come on guys we’re better than this as surely this politically correct world has taught us the values to be sensitive, caring , tolerant and understanding over sensibleness, ability to think for yourself , justice and protection of human rights.

This case could go either way as they’re proven to be historically , but I’m not going to give up my Christianity bc of some evil person as he won’t be the last lapsed catholic to commit atrocities and go against its teachings.
As I said earlier evil people will hide in safe organisations/ environments to commit their sex crimes bc they believe can get away it , but it’s not the organisation that’s in the wrong . People saying the RFC should distant themselves from Pell are being so petty bc as if the media gives a hoot about a token position as they’re too busy trying to convince the ignorant members of society to use them as fodder to fight their battles in bringing down Christianity.

 

[biaseddustyfan]

Shut down all religions imo

Worship a footy team or * off

 

[rowlingsdevsqd]

The 20th Century, with two world wars, was probably the most violent and destructive we have seen in human history.
I hope we do not see a repeat.
World War I was caused by German military and economic expansionism.
World War I led later to World War II encompassing Hitler's desire for revenge.
Again, economic strength was one of the reasons for Hitler's popularity throughout the 1930s.
Neither of those two conflicts were caused by religions.

Hmmm not sure about that, but the crusades say HELLLLOOOOOOOOO!


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[Wacko23Jacko]

I’ve been thinking about this a bit and was always in the wait for an outcome of trial boat. But if we had a player or coaching staff or off field official who was embroiled in a case like this. Would we not stand them down or enforce leave upon them until resolution? It’s a way to distance the club from any wrong doings and show respect for the course of law and any victims involved - without breaching any laws or treating people poorly (ie unfair dismissal or defamation, etc).

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Hmmm not sure about that, but the crusades say HELLLLOOOOOOOOO!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're getting a bit desperate if you are going back that far to incriminate the Church as a whole......

 

[lewigie]

If the Catholic Church have stepped him down during this court case why can't Richmond?

 

[Goldust]

What has he done for us that we would continue to have him as our representative? Why not suspend him from this role, as his employer has done?

Excellent point. His employer has stood him down.

 

[Al Heimer]

If the Catholic Church have stepped him down during this court case why can't Richmond?

There is a difference between stepped down and kicked out.

I think you'll find we at Richmond, high and low, want him gone (and he will be gone) but there has to be a proper process.

 

[Oprah From Tigerland]

Seeing the name George Pell and "honorary" in this thread title is like opening the letter box to find an issue of People magazine anointing Lingy "Sexiest Man Alive". It's totally incompatible.

During his time in leadership roles in the Catholic church in Melbourne and Ballarat, Pell and the Catholic church were dealing with their rampant "child abusing priests problem" like they were an organised crime ring. They covered up the crimes and did not report them to police or other parties, they lied and victim blamed causing untold damage, they 'laundered' their priests from parish to parish in Australia and then to third world countries where they could repeat the cycle of abuse, and they used complex legal and taxation maneuvers to avoid being held accountable if they ever were found out. This was over decades and decades and decades.

They were as dodgy AF and completely unrepentant about it until they were dragged kicking and screaming to the Royal Commission and put under intense pressure to apologise, where amidst "I don't recall that" after "I don't recall that" they finally did offer a limited apology.

That's why at the very least Pell's role with the club should be at least suspended for the foreseeable future IMO.

 

[Helen Wheels]

If the Catholic Church have stepped him down during this court case why can't Richmond?

They didn't. He took leave of absence.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

Seeing the name George Pell and "honorary" in this thread title is like opening the letter box to find an issue of People magazine anointing Lingy "Sexiest Man Alive". It's totally incompatible.

During his time in leadership roles in the Catholic church in Melbourne and Ballarat, Pell and the Catholic church were dealing with their rampant "child abusing priests problem" like they were an organised crime ring. They covered up the crimes and did not report them to police or other parties, they lied and victim blamed causing untold damage, they 'laundered' their priests from parish to parish in Australia and then to third world countries where they could repeat the cycle of abuse, and they used complex legal and taxation maneuvers to avoid being held accountable if they ever were found out. This was over decades and decades and decades.

They were as dodgy AF and completely unrepentant about it until they were dragged kicking and screaming to the Royal Commission and put under intense pressure to apologise, where amidst "I don't recall that" after "I don't recall that" they finally did offer a limited apology.

That's why at the very least Pell's role with the club should be at least suspended for the foreseeable future IMO.

What he said!

 

[The Goon]

But that is the only relevant point.

If you want to avoid the substantive issue so you can discuss minor details, then what's the point?

It's like trying discussing the Palestinian situation by focusing on the table settling at the conference table.

I disagree that the presumption of innocence or guilt is necessarily the most substantive, and certainly not the only, issue on the table here. There is also the freedom to choose to associate, or not associate, with a given individual.

Pell's role with the RFC is effectively a form social contract between us. We both receive enhanced social and community status by associating with a prestigious partner. Obviously this is no longer working in this way, and regardless of guilt or innocence the reflection on our club is poor. Looking at it another way, if Pell was an RFC player sponsored by Puma, he would certainly have been suspended from both the club and sponsorship the second he was committed to stand trial. This is freedom of association at work, and does not necessarily have to be prefaced on guilt or innocence, but how we as a club wish to present our values.

I'd also note that by suspending his role we are neither hurting him financially or prejudicing his trail. As far as I know Pell has done nothing that would suggest the club is indebted to him, so I believe we are free to take this step with a clear conscience.

I don't see the world as black and white, so I can respect your position while disagreeing with it. At the same time, I hope you understand that there are other valid positions in this complex discussion. I'm happy to let you have the last right of reply - i.e. I'll leave it at that unless you want to go into it further.

 

[DrMike]

"In light of Cardinal Pell's fundamental rights to the presumption of innocence and to a fair trial, he will remain a vice-patron of the club pending the outcome of any trial," Gale told Fox Footy."

Not sure what else there is to discuss. Completely agree with Gale.

Pell isn't going to step down as he has other things on his mind and the club isn't going to get involved in the trial while it is ongoing as that makes people consider the link between the club and Pell, and also that the club doesn't have respect for due process. The same due process the club was asking for when people were trying to hang Dusty.

This has nothing to do with religion. Stop bring personal beliefs into something that is purely a criminal and subsequently administrative issue.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Seeing the name George Pell and "honorary" in this thread title is like opening the letter box to find an issue of People magazine anointing Lingy "Sexiest Man Alive". It's totally incompatible.

During his time in leadership roles in the Catholic church in Melbourne and Ballarat, Pell and the Catholic church were dealing with their rampant "child abusing priests problem" like they were an organised crime ring. They covered up the crimes and did not report them to police or other parties, they lied and victim blamed causing untold damage, they 'laundered' their priests from parish to parish in Australia and then to third world countries where they could repeat the cycle of abuse, and they used complex legal and taxation maneuvers to avoid being held accountable if they ever were found out. This was over decades and decades and decades.

They were as dodgy AF and completely unrepentant about it until they were dragged kicking and screaming to the Royal Commission and put under intense pressure to apologise, where amidst "I don't recall that" after "I don't recall that" they finally did offer a limited apology.

That's why at the very least Pell's role with the club should be at least suspended for the foreseeable future IMO.

You do realise that honorary in this case could mean an unpaid position. That is the usual meaning when applied to jobs.

 

[Oprah From Tigerland]

You do realise that honorary in this case could mean an unpaid position. That is the usual meaning when applied to jobs.

I was thinking more along the lines of an honorary doctorate where someone hasn't truly earned the title/award but have achieved great things in that field, but I guess you could interpret that either way. Or not, as I may be completely on the wrong track and happy to stand corrected!

 

[Goldust]

More to the point, why don't we have a vice-patron who is relevant to our club??
Someone who might turn up or show an interest every so often?