Carlton 1979-82; Why don't we rate them?

[Gone Critical]

They might run the off their feet but teams from back then would physically target a player like Mitchell and smash him in the literal sense. They threw real punches back then and made them stick.

Remember also Mitchell is built along Leigh Matthews dimensions. Would have been considered a very big and strong rover / centre an in those days. They would not have been lining up to take a shot at him

Ken Hunter's bravery to the contest surpasses pretty much todays whole league. And that's only one player from back then.

Yep one of the bravest I have seen. Stood out in his day. Today's players play much more like Hunter in terms of attack on the contest than Hunters peers did.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Those opening notes still strike fear into the heart of most footy fans, they just don't like to admit it...

The music itself is slightly upbeat and doesn't both me. It's the deep voices in unison, especially the "old, dark" bit. It's designed to cause maximum misery as you're leaving the ground.

 

[Gone Critical]

I hear your view but to borrow your own phrase , again I would look at it differently. I would suggest 1982 as an example when Carlton ended 1st, Richmond 2nd , Hawks 3rd and North 4th as having the best quality lists of a top 4 sides I can remember in all my time of following football. It may have been even better in the late 60s and early 70s but I was not watching then so cannot say.
You say North dropped away. I would contend they got overtaken by the likes of Carlton getting stronger in quality and Richmond too. This is why they did not make the grand final in my view. Hawthorn had Dermot Brereton on debut kick them out eventually at the G in finals. Sometimes you just fail to make it as others rise to the top.

Lets look at some of quality of North's list that ended 4th that season.
Wayne Schimmelbusch
Malcolm Blight
Gary Dempsey
Keith Greig
Ross Glendinning
David Dench
Phil Carman
Phil Krakouer
Jim Krakouer
Bruce Abernethy
Kym Hodgeman
Phil Kelly
Arnold Briedis
Kerry Good
Ross Henshaw
Stephen McCann
Xavier Tanner
Craig Holden
The quality of the players they could put on field were top shelf.
Almost nuts the cream of the crop in terms of quality.
No club now would be able to fit the cream of the crop in current football prices anywhere near under the salary cap.

Hawthorn had a list with the likes of
Leigh Matthews
Gary Ayres
Gary Buckenara
Terry Wallace
Kelvin Moore
Chris Mew
Peter Knights
Michael Tuck
Russell Greene
Michael Moncrief
John Kennedy
Peter Schwab
Richard Loveridge
Alan Goad
Rodney Eade
Geoff Ablett
a young Gary Ablett
Colin Roberston
Dipper
Peter Russo
Brereton
Polkinghorne
O'Hallaron
Michael Byrne
Ian Paton
A list with two of the greatest players of all time in a few games such as Lethal Leigh and Gary Ablett were unable to make the grand final that year.
Why, because Richmond and Carlton were just damn bloody good.




I would contend because the quality of some of the top four or five in many of those years was too strong for just two clubs to dominate. I would suggest the 3rd premiership in 1982 in four years highlighted to me there were four awesome clubs in terms of talent around in that year to just even make the grand final, let alone win it.
4 does not go into 2. I actually believe it is easier to dominate now as you will never find the quality in top four clubs can get to that level ever again. The salary caps and drafts do not allow it.

You can list a whole group of NM or Hawthorn players that played through the 70s and into the 80s and yes they had great careers and did great things as teams through those decades. Doesn't get away from the fact that Hawthorn and NM didn't do very much, didn't really contend and were not great sides through 1979-82. They are the years we are discussing.

 

[krisholio14]

When you have Mario Bortolotto coming into your finals team to replace first choice key defenders two years in a row, and win both times, you have a bloody good side. Enough said.

 

[gavaniacono]

Agreed Kenny Hunter was 50 times more Coursgeous then any player today. And I could name another 20 players as hard as him. The game was so much harder and tougher. It was played by footballers not chemically and lab designed athletes.

Go hard SOTY. I agree on this. Tolerance levels of the public, umpires and the VFL were much higher. It was visceral, rather than computer programmed and regulated.

 

[gavaniacono]

You can list a whole group of NM or Hawthorn players that played through the 70s and into the 80s and yes they had great careers and did great things as teams through those decades. Doesn't get away from the fact that Hawthorn and NM didn't do very much, didn't really contend and were not great sides through 1979-82. They are the years we are discussing.

...weren't allowed to do much per chance...

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Its hard to rate different eras - but you look at the teams that Carlton beat in those 3 GFs Collingwood 79/81 twice and Richmond in 82

Collingwood 79/80 were a hard working honest team - and nearly rolled the Blues - to put it in perspective the best Collingwood side i have seen ever - and by a big margin was their 1970 GF team ( tradgedy it isnt a flag winning team - because it would be rated so highly)

I went to all 4 finals in 1970 - in the GF Collingwood should have been 15 goals in front at half time - it was a total demolition job - a massacre - but they were so wasteful and left the door ajar - in that year they beat Carlton 3 times - they smashed Carlton at Victoria Park - where Carlton only kicked a piddly 2 goals for the day - they beat Sth Melb ( who finished 4th ) by about 25 goals in the last game of the year - thats how good they were - easily the best Collingwood team ive seen and a mile better than 79/81 or 90 or even 2010

You look at that Richmond team of 82 - that wasnt a great side - Emmet Dunne at CHB and an ageing Allan Martello at full back - please - yet 2 weeks earlier they smashed Carlton (who the opening poster is calling a great team) in the 2nd semi final - they were 10 goals in front at one stage

That Richmond team 82 was not a patch on their earlier really great teams - Bourke Barrot and Clay ( best centreline ever) Royce Hart - KB at his peak - Ian Stewart etc etc etc

Carlton had some top notch teams 68/72 and 79/81 but as a neutral i allways thought Richmond had the upper hand over Carlton over that period - they allways had Carltons measure

So to answer the opening post - i disagree - for example i would rate Richmond 67/74 far superior to Carlton of either 68/72 or 79/81

 

[footyfan1978]

Doesn't get away from the fact that Hawthorn and NM didn't do very much, didn't really contend and were not great sides through 1979-82. They are the years we are discussing.

We are discussing indeed the years I been talking about.


Carlton fixed up North when they played in 1 v 2 Second Semi-Final in 1979

"didn't really contend"

apparently

...weren't allowed to do much per chance...

This!!!!

also

1982 Hawks played Carlton twice in finals and Carlton once again did not allow them to go any further. Richmond and Carlton were too good.
Some people just do not get sometimes there are more than two serious heavyweights around at same time. North and Hawks were seriously talented in 1982. It simply was a case Richmond and Carlton were even better. Hence why some of us discuss this and do not buy the superficial "didn't really contend " as reasons do try to downgrade the quality of the Richmond and Carlton side of such a grand final match up.
Never been more excited for two teams to match up in the big one.
In fact at the time, the prize for Carlton was not only the premiership that year but if they won it, they were to be outright leader on premierships in the league history at the time. So at the end of 1982 we had 3 flag in those four years and was the pinnacle of that teams achievements for that period.
After that the hunger of some of the group seemed to wane a bit but showed spurts in 1983 they still had a bit of the old magic but not enough to win the next flag. Remember late 83 we took Hawks apart and looked to be ready for a late season charge but then Bosustow and Johnston got injured or suspended against North in last round or two and we never got the form back.

Then by 84 and 85 it was Essendon the power team of mid's 80's.
They were awesome too.

 

[footyfan1978]

Regarding 1982 Second Semi-Final

2 weeks earlier they smashed Carlton (who the opening poster is calling a great team) in the 2nd semi final - they were 10 goals in front at one stage

It should be noted Carlton lost Johnston and Bosustow in 1982 for 2nd week of finals that the week before destroyed Hawks at the G. Have a feeling a few more key players out so Richmond got us ideal time that week. Wayne Johnston in fact got suspended for 2 weeks so could not play in second and third week of finals. Not saying we lost to Richmond the next week on purpose but as a little kid I was almost barracking for us to lose as I wanted Johnston back for the grand final and if we won in 2nd week the 2nd match suspension would be the grand final. Not good situation to be in for him.
Thankfully in a way we lost to Richmond in week two as he was part of our two opening goals in almost a minute at start of 82 grand final.

 

[gavaniacono]

Its hard to rate different eras - but you look at the teams that Carlton beat in those 3 GFs Collingwood 79/81 twice and Richmond in 82

Collingwood 79/80 were a hard working honest team - and nearly rolled the Blues - to put it in perspective the best Collingwood side i have seen ever - and by a big margin was their 1970 GF team ( tradgedy it isnt a flag winning team - because it would be rated so highly)

I went to all 4 finals in 1970 - in the GF Collingwood should have been 15 goals in front at half time - it was a total demolition job - a massacre - but they were so wasteful and left the door ajar - in that year they beat Carlton 3 times - they smashed Carlton at Victoria Park - where Carlton only kicked a piddly 2 goals for the day - they beat Sth Melb ( who finished 4th ) by about 25 goals in the last game of the year - thats how good they were - easily the best Collingwood team ive seen and a mile better than 79/81 or 90 or even 2010

You look at that Richmond team of 82 - that wasnt a great side - Emmet Dunne at CHB and an ageing Allan Martello at full back - please - yet 2 weeks earlier they smashed Carlton (who the opening poster is calling a great team) in the 2nd semi final - they were 10 goals in front at one stage

That Richmond team 82 was not a patch on their earlier really great teams - Bourke Barrot and Clay ( best centreline ever) Royce Hart - KB at his peak - Ian Stewart etc etc etc

Carlton had some top notch teams 68/72 and 79/81 but as a neutral i allways thought Richmond had the upper hand over Carlton over that period - they allways had Carltons measure

So to answer the opening post - i disagree - for example i would rate Richmond 67/74 far superior to Carlton of either 68/72 or 79/81

It's very nice of you to say so

 

[gavaniacono]

We are discussing indeed the years I been talking about.


Carlton fixed up North when they played in 1 v 2 Second Semi-Final in 1979

"didn't really contend"

apparently



This!!!!

also

1982 Hawks played Carlton twice in finals and Carlton once again did not allow them to go any further. Richmond and Carlton were too good.
Some people just do not get sometimes there are more than two serious heavyweights around at same time. North and Hawks were seriously talented in 1982. It simply was a case Richmond and Carlton were even better. Hence why some of us discuss this and do not buy the superficial "didn't really contend " as reasons do try to downgrade the quality of the Richmond and Carlton side of such a grand final match up.
Never been more excited for two teams to match up in the big one.
In fact at the time, the prize for Carlton was not only the premiership that year but if they won it, they were to be outright leader on premierships in the league history at the time. So at the end of 1982 we had 3 flag in those four years and was the pinnacle of that teams achievements for that period.
After that the hunger of some of the group seemed to wane a bit but showed spurts in 1983 they still had a bit of the old magic but not enough to win the next flag. Remember late 83 we took Hawks apart and looked to be ready for a late season charge but then Bosustow and Johnston got injured or suspended against North in last round or two and we never got the form back.

Then by 84 and 85 it was Essendon the power team of mid's 80's.
They were awesome too.

What a funny Ol world where a Richmond supporter agrees with a Carlton one. Well, I never. What'll they think of next?

 

[Blueboys11]

One thing i will say after watching the Winners rebooted last night where they played the 1982 grand Final. How horrendous was the umpiring back then? Some of the decisions were just horrendous. Of course no replays and commentators not harping on it means this largely gets ignored, but gee whiz there were some absolute howlers in the half of the game i watched last night. The beauty of foxtel IQ was i could rewind and actually try and decipher what some free kicks were actually payed for

 

[JPetro83]

Cos that was the VFL...

 

[South of the Yarra]

Cos that was the VFL...

And all you ever dreamt about was being a part of it.

 

[JPetro83]

And all you ever dreamt about was being a part of it.

Actually no.. SA was asked in the early 80s and we said no. we joined the AFL.. we were never apart of the VFL. The name 'Adelaide Football Club" was registered in 1982-83.. but only got put into action when the scumbag Port magpies tried to backdoor the SANFL. Anyway that's a another argument.
The SANFL was a bloody strong comp before 1991.

 

[Tigersman]

That Carlton sides efforts were immediately eclipsed by hawthorn who put 7 GFs in a row together from 83-89. Hard to pump a side up with that effort right after them

 

[South of the Yarra]

Actually no.. SA was asked in the early 80s and we said no. we joined the AFL.. we were never apart of the VFL. The name 'Adelaide Football Club" was registered in 1982-83.. but only got put into action when the scumbag Port magpies tried to backdoor the SANFL. Anyway that's a another argument.
The SANFL was a bloody strong comp before 1991.

That's why so many SA players came to the VFL as it was their dream. Some lived it, some couldn't cope and others were not up to it after coming as stars from a lowly comp.

 

[pazza]

Cos that was the VFL...

As per usual, our SA and WA friends like to make it all about them.

 

[Thuggee_Cult]

Shit list, overpaying dud players, no genuine KPP whatsoever, lots of showboaters, Daisy Thomas, Liam Jones, Steven Trigg, Patrick Cripps our only good young player, Chris Judd just retired ;(, Andy Carrazzo retired, Chris Yarran doesn't like us anymore, Lachie Henderson and the rest of his family don't like us, lots of talented forwards have left us recently, Robbie Warnock, Lawrence Angwin and Carl Norman, Kouta's knee, Salary cap breaches, Brendan Fevola left, SouvlakiHut, Sam Jacobs is an A-Grade ruckman, Shaun Grigg is a B-Grade midfielder (an upgrade from D-Grade), Levi Casboult being handcuffed to a senior player and forced against his will to drink, We passed on Daniel Talia and Nathan Fyfe to draft Kane Lucas, Peter Riccardi's kick after the siren in 2002, Ben Dixon's kick after the siren in 2001, Brock McLean, Liam Jones, Bryce Gibbs ahead of Selwood, The light blue guernsey, Mick Malthouse, global warming, Liam Jones, Tony Liberatore and tanking, Josh Bootsma, Adam Goodes wanted to spear our supporters, we came last again, Liam Jones, Liam Jones

Awesome

Souvlaki Hut was the best bit.

 

[South of the Yarra]

As per usual, our SA and WA friends like to make it all about them.

They are so jealous they weren't a part of the big league.

 

[Thuggee_Cult]

I don't know if the actual teams have been posted but here they are.
They all have strong spines but lacked a superstar full forward, however the flanks and pockets are full of guns.
They were certainly great teams, the half forward line of 81/82 = scary

1979
B: 37 Wayne Harmes 20 Geoff Southby 43 David McKay
HB: 22 Robbert Klomp 11 Bruce Doull 33 Peter McConville
C: 47 Peter Francis 25 Alex Jesaulenko (c) 19 Michael Young
HF: 7 Wayne Johnston 36 Mark Maclure 8 Trevor Keogh
F: 3 Mike Fitzpatrick 41 Peter Brown 5 Ken Sheldon
Foll: 28 Peter Jones (vc) 12 Barry Armstrong 16 Jim Buckley
Int: 21 Rod Austin 34 Alex Marcou
Coach: Alex Jesaulenko

1981
B: 27 Des English 40 Scott Howell 15 Val Perovic
HB: 9 Ken Hunter 11 Bruce Doull 37 Wayne Harmes
C: 13 Phil Maylin 1 Greg Wells 32 David Glascott
HF: 4 Peter Bosustow 36 Mark Maclure 7 Wayne Johnston
F: 43 David McKay 33 Peter McConville 16 Jim Buckley
Foll: 3 Mike Fitzpatrick (c) 5 Ken Sheldon 14 Rod Ashman
Int: 34 Alex Marcou 6 Mario Bortolotto
Coach: David Parkin

1982
B: 27 Des English 11 Bruce Doull 15 Val Perovic
HB: 6 Mario Bortolotto 9 Ken Hunter 5 Ken Sheldon
C: 32 David Glascott 16 Jim Buckley 37 Wayne Harmes
HF: 4 Peter Bosustow 36 Mark Maclure 7 Wayne Johnston
F: 33 Peter McConville 8 Ross Ditchburn 34 Alex Marcou
Foll: 3 Mike Fitzpatrick (c) 13 Phil Maylin 14 Rod Ashman
Int: 2 Warren Jones 22 Robbert Klomp
Coach: David Parkin

 

[FootyGeek]

You guys might be interested in the interview which was conducted in the week of the 1982 prelim final. Parkin has a bit to say about that particular finals series.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Regarding 1982 Second Semi-Final



It should be noted Carlton lost Johnston and Bosustow in 1982 for 2nd week of finals that the week before destroyed Hawks at the G. Have a feeling a few more key players out so Richmond got us ideal time that week. Wayne Johnston in fact got suspended for 2 weeks so could not play in second and third week of finals. Not saying we lost to Richmond the next week on purpose but as a little kid I was almost barracking for us to lose as I wanted Johnston back for the grand final and if we won in 2nd week the 2nd match suspension would be the grand final. Not good situation to be in for him.
Thankfully in a way we lost to Richmond in week two as he was part of our two opening goals in almost a minute at start of 82 grand final.

Ha. I remember being happy we lost so Dom could come back too. He was my favourite player and I was supremely confident we would win the flag anyway.

 

[Gone Critical]

We are discussing indeed the years I been talking about.


Carlton fixed up North when they played in 1 v 2 Second Semi-Final in 1979

"didn't really contend"

apparently



This!!!!

also

1982 Hawks played Carlton twice in finals and Carlton once again did not allow them to go any further. Richmond and Carlton were too good.
Some people just do not get sometimes there are more than two serious heavyweights around at same time. North and Hawks were seriously talented in 1982. It simply was a case Richmond and Carlton were even better. Hence why some of us discuss this and do not buy the superficial "didn't really contend " as reasons do try to downgrade the quality of the Richmond and Carlton side of such a grand final match up.
Never been more excited for two teams to match up in the big one.
In fact at the time, the prize for Carlton was not only the premiership that year but if they won it, they were to be outright leader on premierships in the league history at the time. So at the end of 1982 we had 3 flag in those four years and was the pinnacle of that teams achievements for that period.
After that the hunger of some of the group seemed to wane a bit but showed spurts in 1983 they still had a bit of the old magic but not enough to win the next flag. Remember late 83 we took Hawks apart and looked to be ready for a late season charge but then Bosustow and Johnston got injured or suspended against North in last round or two and we never got the form back.

Then by 84 and 85 it was Essendon the power team of mid's 80's.
They were awesome too.

We are talking of a 4 season era and you are claiming those 4 years were full of super teams Carlton, Richmond, North and Hawks. Truth is Hawks won one finals match in that 4 season time and North never even played off in a GF. One PF was their best. I am not denying Carlton of that time were a great team but the others were not. That is in the context we are discussing. We are comparing them to the all time great teams through the history of the AFL. Richmond, North, and Hawthorn of 79-82 don't belong in that discussion for mine. Carlton do.

 

[Gone Critical]

Agreed Kenny Hunter was 50 times more Coursgeous then any player today. And I could name another 20 players as hard as him. The game was so much harder and tougher. It was played by footballers not chemically and lab designed athletes.

You have drifted into hyperbole. "Chemically designed athletes" just undermines you argument. I have been watching the game through all these eras and what you say IMHO is incorrect. In the 70s and 80s there were more dirty off the ball belts. Some really cowardly stuff and whacks for blokes who just didn't even see it coming. There was nothing glamorous or brave about the felling of Hudson in the 71 GF by Cowboy, what Balme did to Southby or Greenings major head injury from O'Dea. They were some famous examples of what Weston too often

It's a good thing such stuff has been kicked out of the game. But that doesn't mean today's players don't go hard, they go harder than ever, short steps were prevalent back in the 70's and 80's. Plenty of players would step off a line and whack their opponent rather than go into a 50:50 contest. These days anyone who so much as is a little tentative is up on camera and discussed immediately. Players today know that and commit like never before. They are bigger stronger and faster and hit harder.

Listen to Lethal talk about that and praise the courage of our current players. I am not knocking the old timers. It was a different time with different rules.

I would like to hear of your list of 20 players from Hunters time who were as hard as him. His courage stood out, there were not many who lived with him what it came to bravery