Carlton 1979-82; Why don't we rate them?

[Shane Hird]

Claremont beat them in '82 without Jimmy and Phil

End of season?

 

[South of the Yarra]

Claremont beat them in '82 without Jimmy and Phil

Yes and Cameroon beat Argentina.

 

[footyfan1978]

We are talking of a 4 season era

and you are claiming those 4 years were full of super teams Carlton, Richmond, North and Hawks.

Incorrect. Quite clearly I was focussing the example of how good that group of players was in context of the quality of teams around at that time. The list of players I gave was of 1982 to highlight one of those four years where I felt it was an awesome level of football these teams could play at.

I am not denying Carlton of that time were a great team but the others were not. That is in the context we are discussing.

No, you are making your view that you place no context of what teams were around at the time to beat. It is dismissive of other teams around. I accept that is your way of thinking but I don't buy it myself. It is interesting for me to understand that lack of real context put into rating teams some do. I on the other hand, do actually consider what premierships teams had to beat around them and more importantly having watched the seasons over time I do consider this the highest quality season I seen in terms of how talented the best four were. I've seen seasons where I felt there were only one quality side. Some years two, sometimes three and even a few years I felt no side has been outstanding but still someone has to win the premiership and be the best of a season.
I am giving actual facts on the list of players in top four sides of 1982 and those that were around then. This gives context of what Carlton faced to win another flag in 1982 after already won two a few years before and what one will notice if a keen eye for footy back then, is the amount of gun players those teams had is above what teams can get in a 16 or 18 team league. Just because those other teams were denied the premiership by Carlton being better in 1982 does not mean they were no good.

 

[footyfan1978]

1978 through to 86' was golden era in footy. Plenty of thuggery and late whacks around the jaw during fast, brutal play.

Carlton side were brilliant in those early 80s and recruiting the Buzz to the club was a master stroke. He was the Stevie J of the time.

Always felt that Stevie J both in character and flair reminded me a lot of how Mr Modesty used to strut his stuff back then.

 

[footyfan1978]

And Never forget that Hawks dynasty was rudely interrupted by 2 complete annihilations in those GFs.
And if not for an unbelievable run of back luck with season ending injuries to key Essendon players from 86 to 89..you might have not done all you did.

No denying that Essendon were a champion team in 85 ( after the GF demolition job - you would have thought theyd win the next 3 on the trot) however i thought they lost their hunger and fell away a fair bit - went to a Swans v Dons game at the SCG - i think it was in 86 ( Edelstens 1st year) and the Swans won by about 20 plus goals - way over 100 points - i dont think you could use the injury card for that

Well I can start with 86 and tell you..

Our number one champion rover Darren Williams played just 4 games that year. Gone by rd 5.

Tim Watson broken leg gone by Rd 4.

Bill Duckworth missed 9 games.

Van Der Haar played just 5 games.

Premiership star defender/winger Nobby Clarke missed 9 games.

Fair chuck of premiership power missing that year you'd have to say.

I distinctly remember having the feeling after 84 and 85 that this was a monster quality team Essendon had created. I was feeling they were as classy as the Carlton teams I watched win 3 flags as a kid but as you pointed out in 1986 they simply were decimated by injuries early in season and as a result it opened the door for Hawks that I genuinely felt were second best in mid 80's to win another flag themselves. Our Carlton 86 side was not as classy as our sides a few years before that but we got in the grand final. For whatever reason though Essendon never got even close to the dizzy heights they displayed in 84 and 85 after the injuries of 86 went away. By mid 1987 it was clear it was just Hawks and Carlton as a clear two best and a spirited Dees nearly toppled Hawks in preliminary final. Cannot even remember if Essendon were in finals in 1987. However I rate that Essendon 84 and then 85 as an increasing powerhouse.
What the Hawks did was remain in many grand finals in a row knocking at the door and for consistency they had it over Essendon and Carlton put for sheer brilliance when Essendon got into top gear of their premierships or Carlton in 82, the Hawks were just slightly behind. Seven grand finals in a row by Hawks was an awesome effort though. I think 1989 or 83 were their best teams. I remember being annoyed in 1988 as felt if Wayne Johnston had not got injured we should have taken the Hawks down again. Kudos to Gary Ayres making sure that did not happen.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

They were overshadowed by the dynasty that began in '83.

No, it started in 1976. Blues just interrupted for a few seasons

 

[Freo]

End of season?

Preseason game at Claremont between the two '81 premiers.

 

[nickrebellious]

If father son was such a big deal for Geelong, perhaps it's Hawthorn who have benefitted most from changes to the rules like Free Agency which has nabbed Lake and Frawley. Priority draft picks which nabbed the Hawks Roughead, Hodge and Ellis plus the timely introduction of GWS and GC to keep other sides down just as the hawks were hitting their straps.

Don't pretend like the Hawks haven't been beneficiaries of fortuitous rule changes to get where they are now.

Lake and Hodge's pick was traded for.

It was Franklin who we gained with the PP and we lost him and Ellis to FA to grand final opponents. If anything we've been weakened and our rivals have been strengthened through free agency.

 

[HBF]

Happy to provide a list of 70s and 80s players as hard as Hunter and will do so throughout the evening when I have the time to type such a list. By the way Hunter was the first player I would pick from an opposition side. Absolute champion. Incidents such as Barry Hall ring a bell in the modern game. Players of the 20s and 30s were even tougher and harder. Men such as Collier, Dyer and Chitty. By the way love the way you construct your opinion without being personal. A BF user well worth having a discussion with. Cheers .... Still disagree with you strongly though.

Hunter was as fearless as they come. The number of times he would put his body in situations where most players wouldn't was amazing.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Hunter was as fearless as they come. The number of times he would put his body in situations where most players wouldn't was amazing.

He was amazing. Absolute champion.

 

[Shane Hird]

Hunter was as fearless as they come. The number of times he would put his body in situations where most players wouldn't was amazing.

The only player who comes close (even from today's players) to having the sort of courage Hunter displayed was Wanganeen I reckon.

 

[Shane Hird]

Preseason game at Claremont between the two '81 premiers.

Which means CFC players would've been on the drink big time in sunny perth and not taken it too serious.

In the other shed the Claremont boys would've been treated the game like a life or death. For the glory of it...

 

[HBF]

The only player who comes close (even from today's players) to having the sort of courage Hunter displayed was Wanganeen I reckon.

What about Archer?
Not dis-similar players, although Arch had a more aggressive streak in him.

 

[HBF]

He was amazing. Absolute champion.

Wayne Johnston is my favourite player of all time, but Hunter is right up there.

 

[Shane Hird]

I distinctly remember having the feeling after 84 and 85 that this was a monster quality team Essendon had created. I was feeling they were as classy as the Carlton teams I watched win 3 flags as a kid but as you pointed out in 1986 they simply were decimated by injuries early in season and as a result it opened the door for Hawks that I genuinely felt were second best in mid 80's to win another flag themselves. Our Carlton 86 side was not as classy as our sides a few years before that but we got in the grand final. For whatever reason though Essendon never got even close to the dizzy heights they displayed in 84 and 85 after the injuries of 86 went away. By mid 1987 it was clear it was just Hawks and Carlton as a clear two best and a spirited Dees nearly toppled Hawks in preliminary final. Cannot even remember if Essendon were in finals in 1987. However I rate that Essendon 84 and then 85 as an increasing powerhouse.
What the Hawks did was remain in many grand finals in a row knocking at the door and for consistency they had it over Essendon and Carlton put for sheer brilliance when Essendon got into top gear of their premierships or Carlton in 82, the Hawks were just slightly behind. Seven grand finals in a row by Hawks was an awesome effort though. I think 1989 or 83 were their best teams. I remember being annoyed in 1988 as felt if Wayne Johnston had not got injured we should have taken the Hawks down again. Kudos to Gary Ayres making sure that did not happen.

the other big thing that happened in 86 was the loss of arguably our best player in Merv Neagle to the Sydney Swans on a $395,000 three year contract and one of our best defenders Paul Weston returning home to SA to coach West Torrens.

1987 started off dismally with star Mark Harvey breaking his keg in pre season and Madden and Duckworth missing huge chunks of games at start of year.
Watson was still out too from previous season, came back in rd 5, played two games then missed the next 11 before playing last 5 games of year.

Harvey came back in rd 9 and broke his leg again in reserves match.

Van der haar missed 11 games in the middle of year..and Leon Baker was out for 8 or 9 as well.

Horrific year..won 9..lost 12..drawn 1 to finish 9th.

1988 we got Greg Anderson which didn't work out as good as we wanted. Roger Merrett went to Brisbane for $350,000 over 3 years...and basically the core group compared to 84,85 was much different by then.

 

[Shane Hird]

What about Archer?
Not dis-similar players, although Arch had a more aggressive streak in him.

Archer was awesome. But he was more chunky..Hunter and Wangas were rangy, skinny blokes who had no right jumping into packs and cutting off passes in front of big opposition.

 

[Roysforever]

As touched on by numerous posters the Carlton side of the era was a great finals side. The 1981 final series was a wide open affair such that any of the competing five clubs could lay claims to be the best side of the year. The fact Essendon won fifteen straight games before being knocked out in an elimination final emphasises this. Carlton's performance to then knock over their nemesis Richmond in the 1982 Grand Final justified their position as the dominant team of the era.

 

[Roysforever]

the other big thing that happened in 86 was the loss of arguably our best player in Merv Neagle to the Sydney Swans on a $395,000 three year contract and one of our best defenders Paul Weston returning home to SA to coach West Torrens.

1987 started off dismally with star Mark Harvey breaking his keg in pre season and Madden and Duckworth missing huge chunks of games at start of year.
Watson was still out too from previous season, came back in rd 5, played two games then missed the next 11 before playing last 5 games of year.

Harvey came back in rd 9 and broke his leg again in reserves match.

Van der haar missed 11 games in the middle of year..and Leon Baker was out for 8 or 9 as well.

Horrific year..won 9..lost 12..drawn 1 to finish 9th.

1988 we got Greg Anderson which didn't work out as good as we wanted. Roger Merrett went to Brisbane for $350,000 over 3 years...and basically the core group compared to 84,85 was much different by then.

Very valid points as always SH. I also recall Paul Van der Haar suggesting that Sheedy's coaching in the immediate years following 1985 displayed overconfidence and the perception players could succeed in any position at any time of a game. As you can imagine I've watched the 86 elimination final a fair share of times and agree that Sheedy's coaching cost the Bombers the match and the chance for (dare I say it) a three-peat.

 

[krisholio14]

the other big thing that happened in 86 was the loss of arguably our best player in Merv Neagle to the Sydney Swans on a $395,000 three year contract and one of our best defenders Paul Weston returning home to SA to coach West Torrens.

1987 started off dismally with star Mark Harvey breaking his keg in pre season and Madden and Duckworth missing huge chunks of games at start of year.
Watson was still out too from previous season, came back in rd 5, played two games then missed the next 11 before playing last 5 games of year.

Harvey came back in rd 9 and broke his leg again in reserves match.

Van der haar missed 11 games in the middle of year..and Leon Baker was out for 8 or 9 as well.

Horrific year..won 9..lost 12..drawn 1 to finish 9th.

1988 we got Greg Anderson which didn't work out as good as we wanted. Roger Merrett went to Brisbane for $350,000 over 3 years...and basically the core group compared to 84,85 was much different by then.

That's what made Hawthorn so great though. Have a look at the difference in their list between '83 and '91. That's a fair turnover of bodies for them to continue dominating. Essendon had opportunities to bounce back with a lot of guys from those 83-5 sides and weren't quite good enough.

Would have loved to see a Grand Final between '85 Essendon and '88 Hawthorn. What a game that would have been.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Well I can start with 86 and tell you..

Our number one champion rover Darren Williams played just 4 games that year. Gone by rd 5.

Tim Watson broken leg gone by Rd 4.

Bill Duckworth missed 9 games.

Van Der Haar played just 5 games.

Premiership star defender/winger Nobby Clarke missed 9 games.

Fair chuck of premiership power missing that year you'd have to say.

That game i was referring to - i looked it up Round 17 1987

Sydney Swans 36G 20b 236

Essendon 11g 7b 73

That is one hell of a hammering - you still had plenty of premiership players in the team that day

Hawthorn in that era - just kept on keeping on - thats why they get the kudos

 

[Shane Hird]

That game i was referring to - i looked it up Round 17 1987

Sydney Swans 36G 20b 236

Essendon 11g 7b 73

That is one hell of a hammering - you still had plenty of premiership players in the team that day

Hawthorn in that era - just kept on keeping on - thats why they get the kudos

Yeah..but again that day we had no Harvey, Watson, Daisy Williams Vanders and Baker and a young Chris Daniher playing his very first game as well.


Sheedy actually got resigned for two years a week after that game.

At the time it was said Sheedy was spending way too much time doing speeches and events and lost his attention with the players.

Sheedy's decision to trade popular clubmen like Steve Carey really put off the players too and many lost respect for the coach.

It wasn't until 89 when he got focused again and had one last chance to snag another flag ..( Watson returned to win a BnF )

1990 gf we looked old and clunky. Pies out worked us and ended the era.

Hawthorn were lucky in a lot of finals 86 onwards. Very lucky things went their way. But like a bunch of teams around the time they were a quality side.

But HFC coming back with much older players in 91 to win a flag was pretty impressive .

 

[blueboy25]

Preseason game at Claremont between the two '81 premiers.

Any interview with the Carlton guys from that era they always say that they always got belted in pre season games back then but come rd1 they were a different team.

 

[Freo]

Which means CFC players would've been on the drink big time in sunny perth and not taken it too serious.

In the other shed the Claremont boys would've been treated the game like a life or death. For the glory of it...

Not quite, I was there, it was a cracking game of football between two brilliant teams.
The WAFL was very strong in those days.

 

[HBF]

Archer was awesome. But he was more chunky..Hunter and Wangas were rangy, skinny blokes who had no right jumping into packs and cutting off passes in front of big opposition.

One of my favourite Hunter highlights:

 

[Freo]

Hunter was as fearless as they come. The number of times he would put his body in situations where most players wouldn't was amazing.

I saw every one of Kenny Hunter's first 99 games with Claremont. What a legend. Early on he was an incredible high marking defender playing as a center half back. Being only about 6 feet tall and slight of build, that was quite an achievement. As gutsy as they come and still one of my all time favs. Although not as big, he moved in a similar way to Fyfe, albeit having an awkward left foot kicking action.