Changes for Hawthorn

[abs_of_STEELE]

Need to see what happens in the VFL tomorrow, but these would be my changes ATM.

OUT: L.Brown, Fraser, O'Bree
IN: Shaw, Reid/Brown, Dawes

But yeah, depending what happens in VFL tomorrow and if Heater is fit.

I want to give J-Mac and Caff another go as they need more than one game, against the best side in the comp, to prove themselves. Caff was ok and while J-Mac was disappointing, I think we should play them both.

Leigh has done nothing the last 2 weeks, although he'll probably stay in as an MM favourite, but I think he should go back to the VFL.

Both Jolly and Fraser have been hopeless. I think Jolly needs a game where he is the solo ruck as it could turn around his form. Back him in against Hawthorn's ruckless team and give him a chance to show us that he is a good player. Dawes can ruck for stints as we saw last year at times.

O'Bree and Ball doesn't work IMO. Ball was better than O'Bree and this will give us a chance to actually use Pendles in the guts where he is useful.

But I'm sure MM will keep all three in.

(Although maybe I'm just not thinking straight because I'm still upset)

 

[The Royal Sampler]

With explanations -

IN:
Dawes - We have a contested marking forward who can't kick, and a kicking forward who can't take a contested mark. Dawes is somewhere in between and we need to find out if he can do the job. Can also ruck, hence the corresponding out, see below.

Shaw - Because he's a gun.

Reid - He's been well ahead of Brown this preseason and we need a second tall backman.

Anthony - After getting a bit of touch in the twos, he comes back in. He probably still won't get heaps of ball, but he will make the most of his opportunities.

OUT:
Fraser - Fraser is no longer in the side to ruck, he's in the side as a forward who can back up in the ruck. At his primary task he's been completely ineffectual so far this season.

O'Bree - 13 possessions isn't good enough.

Toovey - We need a tall more than a small. Reid comes in and Shaw gives us better rebound, surer hands, a more accurate kick, better one-on-one ability... need I go on?

L Brown - We showed against the Saints that we weren't good enough, simply not up to their standard. How do we access the improvement required to get to their standard? Not by playing L Brown.

 

[soreplums]

Did I hear Presti also hurt his ankle late in the game?

 

[NatheM]

**** Lockyer was shithouse tonight. He really showed his age.
He and Didak should not be moved from HF.
**** how hard is it.
Lockyer will be exposed every week in the backline.

Dale, Steele and Beams were all big posatives.
Gotta remember that they are still babies, and they all were our best.
Harry was Harry, Swan has been off the last 2 weeks.
We missed Heath, but he was cancelled out by Kosi.

Jolly performed much better, he will keep improving.
Fraser is on thin ice, I agree.

We need Cloke to be able to kick like Jack.

After having time to digest the frustration of our inaccuracy, I have come to realise that this team has performed pretty damn well, considering that they are still boys and they really served it up to the best.

I think it was a good selection, and MM couldn't of done anything more to give us a shot, just a few let us down *cough*cough*Obree*CoughLockyer*cough*fraser
and the ****ing points to goal ratio.

 

[JOELY]

what do we think about brown's report? i don't feel that great saying it, but i would't be too unhappy if he goes. lucky for him i'm not sure there's much in it, but who knows with the MRP. they hate that way off the ball stuff.

 

[PieBeast]

Cant believe the calls of Tarks being dropped , he was played out of position.

Out- Fraser, O'Bree
In-anyone

 

[CursoryMercenary]

Out: Malthouse
In: Buckley

Only change that would appease me right now.

was thinking of doing that myself but I see you got it out there.

John Anthony back maybe? certainly would help accuracy wise?

 

[the_fresh]

Why are you guys not saying Davis & Didak?
Both have been shocking the last 2 weeks, both are there to kick goals and get the ball in the midfield, both have failed big time in those departments and should be dropped to make a statement.

 

[Brent24]

With explanations -

IN:
Dawes - We have a contested marking forward who can't kick, and a kicking forward who can't take a contested mark. Dawes is somewhere in between and we need to find out if he can do the job. Can also ruck, hence the corresponding out, see below.

Shaw - Because he's a gun.

Reid - He's been well ahead of Brown this preseason and we need a second tall backman.

Anthony - After getting a bit of touch in the twos, he comes back in. He probably still won't get heaps of ball, but he will make the most of his opportunities.

OUT:
Fraser - Fraser is no longer in the side to ruck, he's in the side as a forward who can back up in the ruck. At his primary task he's been completely ineffectual so far this season.

O'Bree - 13 possessions isn't good enough.

Toovey - We need a tall more than a small. Reid comes in and Shaw gives us better rebound, surer hands, a more accurate kick, better one-on-one ability... need I go on?

L Brown - We showed against the Saints that we weren't good enough, simply not up to their standard. How do we access the improvement required to get to their standard? Not by playing L Brown.

Exactly what I would be doing. Unfortunately, they're all Malthouse lovechilds and it's very unlikely any will be omitted.

Expect to see minimal changes, with younger players making way.

 

[lukey69]

outs sidebottom toovey leigh brown fraser
ins shaw anthony dawes goldsack

 

[Scodog10]

outs sidebottom toovey leigh brown fraser
ins shaw anthony dawes goldsack

Im curious did you watch the game last night? Because in the game i watched he was one of the few players that can hold their head up.

Also I cannot believe the easy run Toovey is getting from some posters he has issues in every fundamental area of his game. His kicking is poor, so is his handballing, he fumbles at ground level, he has no awareness of his opponent when he has the ball in hand and the only thing he does at AFL level is shutting a man down which he is struggling with atm. Same goes for Leigh Brown I just hope the MRP give him a couple of weeks to save us having to put up with him. It is quite staggering how these two are gifted game after game despite poor performances whereas younger players like Reid, Dawes and Macaffer are brought in and out of the team after one such performance.

Ins: Anthony, Shaw (if fit), Reid
Outs: L. Brown, Toovey, O'Bree

FWIW Lockyer was played out of position tonight it was poor coaching from Malthouse to have him in the defensive half, he hasnt been able to play as a defender since he did his knee.

 

[magman29]

why is everyone calling for Anthony to be back in? He got dropped for doing nothing and hasn"t even played one VFL game yet. How about we wait and see how he goes today first? Also I agree ,leave Lockyer in the forward line as he can kick straight for goal.. Bring in Dawes and Goldy if they go well in Vfl today, Heater is a no brainer.. to be dropped? O'Brea, Fraser, Tooves

 

[Ron]

I was a little annoyed that dawes wasn't brought in last night. I will be very much annoyed if he misses again next week.

Mick has to get with it, 10 years of picking favourites has achieved nothing.

Out - Brown, O'Bree, Toovey (probably needs some confidence in the magoos)

Ins - Either Reid or Nathan Brown, whoever they feel is more up to it atm, Shaw, Dawes

 

[HFF]

why is everyone calling for Anthony to be back in? He got dropped for doing nothing and hasn"t even played one VFL game yet. How about we wait and see how he goes today first?

Because, he makes the most of his limited opportunities. Even if he is playing badly, he is still good for a goal or two- something we could have used last night.

FFS, if Jack has done nothing, where does that leave Leroy Brown and Toovey?

 

[Typhoon]

I don't want to sound like I've hit the panic button and I'm not really sure about changes for next week against the Hawks but there are many that have time and time again, when needing to stand up and make a statement have failed miserably.
I'm not sure if the following can cut it or take us to a flag after last nights litmus test against a very good football side.
Take your pick from Toovey, Davis, Macaffer, McCarthy, Medhurst, Fraser, Cloke and the worst of all, O'bree.

 

[hellfire]

outs sidebottom toovey leigh brown fraser
ins shaw anthony dawes goldsack

Geez you're hard to please. Sidebottom was one of our best last night.

Nice ins, and your other three outs are okay, but you have to reward effort and performance, and Sidebottom has been one of our best the last two weeks. Obree deserves to go far more than Steele, same with McCarthy and Macaffer.

Anyway, after sleeping on it, I've revised my changes, VFL form ignored:

OUT: L.Brown, Fraser, Obree, McCarthy
IN: Dawes, Reid, Anthony, Shaw

I would drop Toovey, but I think we need him to take one of their small forwards: Brown, Rioli, Osbourne. I initially wanted to drop Macaffer instead of McCarthy, but I think we need better disposal and a big body against the Hawks.

You could argue we could exploit their lack of ruck power by playing Fraser as well as Jolly, but realistically, Jolly should annihilate Renouf on his own, like he always beat the Hawks at Sydney. That way, we can bring in both Dawes and Anthony, two relatively accurate "big" forwards who can take a grab far better than last nights forward line.

HF: Didak, Cloke, Davis
FF: Medhurst, Dawes, Anthony

That will really stretch their defense, they have Schoenmakers, Gilham and Gibson to play tall, I think we should comfortably come out on top.

Heath Shaw back in vital for our chances, he always plays well against the Hawks. He breaks the lines of their zone, provides some drive. We really need to tag Hodge and Mitchell, both absolute destroy us each and every time. Possibly Sidebottom to Mitchell and the Caff to Hodge, the latter told to sacrifice his own game if necessary. I'd like to see Reid go with Buddy [yes, I'm serious, Maxwell can help him out], Presti to Roughead [not an ideal matchup for Presti, but necessary], O'Brien to Rioli, Toovey to Brown and Shaw to Osbourne.

Pendlebury and Ball will hold their own around the stoppages will Jolly dominating the ruck, which is an area that has lost us matches against the Hawks in recent encounters. Wellingham and Thomas need to keep up their good work in the midfield, moving the ball through the zone with their speed.

I think this is a game we can certainly win. We have a decent break, we will be salivating to redeem ourselves after last night [a loss will do that more than a close win], we finally have an extractor and ruckman [our two biggest deficiencies against the Hawks in the past], and I really think Reid can do well on Buddy. Bring it on.

 

[Invigoration]

OUT: L.Brown, Fraser, Obree, McCarthy
IN: Dawes, Reid, Anthony, Shaw

There is no way we are going to lose 600 games of experience in one swoop, to add to what we are already missing with Johnson out. There's just no way Brown, Fraser and O'Bree will all go out in one week, so I don't really even see the point of mentioning it.

Leaves Dawes as our backup ruckman on the MCG as well... no thanks.

I suspect who ever performs better today of Dawes and Anthony will see themselves brought up for next week, highly doubt we'll see both. Hopefully Lethal gets suspended though and takes at least one of the decisions out of our hands.

 

[hellfire]

There is no way we are going to lose 600 games of experience in one swoop, to add to what we are already missing with Johnson out. There's just no way Brown, Fraser and O'Bree will all go out in one week, so I don't really even see the point of mentioning it.

Leaves Dawes as our backup ruckman on the MCG as well... no thanks.

I suspect who ever performs better today of Dawes and Anthony will see themselves brought up for next week, highly doubt we'll see both. Hopefully Lethal gets suspended though and takes at least one of the decisions out of our hands.

Yes, because leaving three experienced players who continue to serve up absolute tripe will really benefit the side. I know it won't happen, but that's because our selection panel is too scared to make real changes. We're playing a side that has Renouf as their number 1 ruck, Birchall and Hodge as backup, Jolly should eat them for breakfast. If he can't, at least we'll know early that the trade was a bust. He rucked on his own a lot at Sydney, albeit at the SCG, but against Hawthorn's poor excuse for a ruck division, it won't be a problem. With Dawes and Anthony in the side, Cloke can ruck if necessary when Jolly needs a rest. Bottom line is we need to try something different, because the same old shit never works against the Hawks. Our inexperienced kids are carrying our experienced veterans... players like Thomas, Wellingham, Beams, Sidebottom and O'Brien are literally carrying the bloody side [and Swan]... Obree and Fraser were liabilities last night, and a statement needs to be made at the selection table.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Leaves Dawes as our backup ruckman on the MCG as well... no thanks.

Rucking against a tiring Renouf, I'd take that in a heartbeat given he should out-perform Fraser up forward... comfortably.

 

[Greening Magic]

McCarthy was trying to play an AFL game at the pace of a VFL game.

This struck me as well. Reminded me of Danny Stanley who I thought did the same thing. J-Mac needs to rectify this.

 

[Big Cox]

Surely Darren Jolly will be dropped? Terrible terrible player atm. Doesnt care about the club and is only around to pick up a paycheque. Doesnt really hide it either with his so called 'effort' he puts in.

 

[loki04]

With explanations -

IN:
Dawes - We have a contested marking forward who can't kick, and a kicking forward who can't take a contested mark. Dawes is somewhere in between and we need to find out if he can do the job. Can also ruck, hence the corresponding out, see below.

Shaw - Because he's a gun.

Reid - He's been well ahead of Brown this preseason and we need a second tall backman.

Anthony - After getting a bit of touch in the twos, he comes back in. He probably still won't get heaps of ball, but he will make the most of his opportunities.

OUT:
Fraser - Fraser is no longer in the side to ruck, he's in the side as a forward who can back up in the ruck. At his primary task he's been completely ineffectual so far this season.

O'Bree - 13 possessions isn't good enough.

Toovey - We need a tall more than a small. Reid comes in and Shaw gives us better rebound, surer hands, a more accurate kick, better one-on-one ability... need I go on?

L Brown - We showed against the Saints that we weren't good enough, simply not up to their standard. How do we access the improvement required to get to their standard? Not by playing L Brown.

Agree with these changes.

 

[Buddy Goes Bang]

As a Hawthorn supporter reading this thread with interest, I'm amazed at the calls to drop Fraser.

It's pretty obvious that Hawthorn is exposed by only have one ruckman available. That creates two big opportunites for the opposition, particularly as Renouf tires in the second half of the match.

It creates opportunities for easy clearances from stoppages (as evidenced by Geelong's last quarter ruck domination last week).

It also creates opportunities around the ground if you've got a mobile and intelligent second ruckman who can run off and create options. I'd be more concerned about Fraser's impact in this second role than I would be about just about any other Collingwood player at the moment.

I reckon Fraser could carve us up. Happy to see him dropped next week (acknowledging that he's not your answer as first ruck) if indeed you do go down that path.

 

[daics_35]

In- Nathan Brown,C Dawes, H Shaw and J Anthony
Out- L.Brown , T Cloke, J Macarthy and B Macaffer

Nathan Brown has a good record on Roughead so i think we should bring him in also Chris Dawes he pretty much plays the sam role as cloke except he kicks the goals and you need goals to win games. H Shaw becuase he is a star and we really missed Jack Anthony. I also think simon Buckley should be brought in for Toovey because after watching the VFL team his run from deffence and he breaks the lines pretty well and we need that to beat the Hawks.

Macarthy must be dropped he is another danny Stannly and Macaffer really needs to improve on his kicking. L.Brown should also be sent back to the VFL because i dont think he is the right player to stop Roughead and up forward he has been useless.

 

[mattys123]

After watching the VFL game today in person, here are the changes we should make;

In: Nathan Brown, Jack Anthony, Heath Shaw

Out: McCaffer, McCarthy, Leigh Brown.

Nathan Brown looked very good today, wasn't beaten one on one too often by the best VFL side there is, and we need to him as a second tall defender against Buddy and Uglyhead (Roughead).

Shaw speaks for himself (top 3 player) and Anthony did enough to come back in straighten us up a bit, especially against a weaker backline.

Reid, Goldsack or Dawes didn't do enough today to get a game IMO, but they will all push for selection in the coming weeks with games against weaker VFL opposition.

Leigh Brown has had his time, 3 bad games, low possessions, and cameo inputs are not good enough from a KPP sized player.

WE CAN'T DROP TRAVIS CLOKE, he just hit form, and Dawes is about 1/20th as good a player as Cloke.

Dawes would be lucky to get 2 shots for goal at AFL level in a whole match.