News Chris Davies departs for Carlton

[Adz2332]

anyone in the recruiting, drafting trading and talent scouts can stay.

 

[P4Life]

While Davies is getting paid to be responsible for the Footy Dept, he's responsible for the Footy Dept. He's one of the list of key decision makers at the club who has either retained his position or left on his own terms in the past 8 years of failure. We've had significant issues around list management and coaching in that time. He's in charge of that department.

You can argue he's given the coaching staff every opportunity to succeed, but we haven't. Any genuine review into the club would be very closely assessing his decision making.

There is no point being a recruiting guru if you can't sort your coaching and list management out.

We don't know how much his hands are tied, all we know is we've been very well resourced but we haven't won a knockout final in 8 years.

What is wrong with our list management?
The profile of age, early draft picks and experience is excellent.
2 prelims in 3 years and the No 1 draft pick from a year ago doesn’t look to bad to me.
No salary cap problems.
I know the frustrations are there but barking up the wrong tree with that one.
If Davies has been sounded out twice by the head office about switching for what would be a significant pay increase and higher potential job position and decides to stay, I say thank you for your support.

 

[PowerLil]

Our results since 2015 would suggest that our football department isn't exactly humming.

 

[Jojay]

This thread seems like a ‘bored of off season thread’… going after Davies? The guy does a great job.

So much this.

Seriously, he's just had a great off season bringing in a potential legacy player and brought in a new senior assistant with decent credentials.

If he was to accept a gig from afl house, there would be melts on here. Really can't win.

 

[Alberton Proud]

Very happy living in Adelaide.

 

[Powerade 08]

What is wrong with our list management?

Thats like saying whats wrong with Keninkley, he has a good win rate.
Theres 15 years worth of threads about our list management, its been covered.

 

[P4Life]

Thats like saying whats wrong with Keninkley, he has a good win rate.
Theres 15 years worth of threads about our list management, its been covered.

Rather than giving a generic negative BF answer, explain what is wrong with the current list. I except a monster KPD would be nice but list managers and recruiters can only give you a list that has the ability to perform at the high level. I would suggest 2 prelims is evidence that the list is relatively strong.
Have your opinion on Ken Hinkley but don’t roll that out for Chris Davies and the list team

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

This thread seems like a ‘bored of off season thread’… going after Davies? The guy does a great job.

This thread was started in August 2018 when we were on a run of 4 years of nothingness.

 

[El_Scorcho]

What is wrong with our list management?
The profile of age, early draft picks and experience is excellent.
2 prelims in 3 years and the No 1 draft pick from a year ago doesn’t look to bad to me.
No salary cap problems.
I know the frustrations are there but barking up the wrong tree with that one.
If Davies has been sounded out twice by the head office about switching for what would be a significant pay increase and higher potential job position and decides to stay, I say thank you for your support.

Throughout the Hinkley era we've seemingly had frustrating and easy to predict holes on our list holding us back. At the moment it's at KPD, but previously it's been in the ruck, elite mid and KPF.

We've frequently been required to shoehorn players out of position into key positions and ruck.

We get the players we go after the vast majority of the time, so our recruiting is very good, but our list management hasn't been ideal. We can blame Hinkley for this I guess for a lack of development, but again it's under Davies umbrella.

 

[El_Scorcho]

While Davies has been our footy boss we played Jackson Trengove

8

Jackson Trengove

Age

35

Ht

197cm

Wt

97kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.5

3star

K

6.3

2star

HB

7.2

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

2.7

4star

MG

167.1

3star

D

8.0

2star

K

2.0

1star

HB

6.0

3star

M

1.0

1star

T

4.0

5star

MG

16.0

1star

D

9.8

3star

K

2.6

1star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.2

3star

T

3.4

5star

as a ruckman and then a key forward. We played a key forward line of Ryder and Westhoff. We're playing Finlayson as a ruckman. We're playing undersized key defenders and getting burned. Over the years we've struggled with midfield, both elite and depth while having a sea of flankers on the list.

There is filling holes with players with transferable skillsets, and there is being caught with your pants down again and again. Davies is the footy dept boss. It's his job to manage this better.

I'm not saying I'd move Davies on, but he's not blameless. It's his responsibility.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

While Davies has been our footy boss we played Jackson Trengove as a ruckman and then a key forward. We played a key forward line of Ryder and Westhoff. We're playing Finlayson as a ruckman. We're playing undersized key defenders and getting burned. Over the years we've struggled with midfield, both elite and depth while having a sea of flankers on the list.

There is filling holes with players with transferable skillsets, and there is being caught with your pants down again and again. Davies is the footy dept boss. It's his job to manage this better.

I'm not saying I'd move Davies on, but he's not blameless. It's his responsibility.

I've said it before, but when it comes to rucks and KPP's our list management, recruiters and coaches are like the mechanics who when they have a problem with the carburettor, they go and take something out of the differential to try and fix it. And it continually fails.

We love recruiting in too many sexy little flakey flankers who when the going gets tough, against the best sides and cut throat finals, go missing.

 

[Schulzenfest]

While Davies has been our footy boss we played Jackson Trengove as a ruckman and then a key forward. We played a key forward line of Ryder and Westhoff. We're playing Finlayson as a ruckman. We're playing undersized key defenders and getting burned. Over the years we've struggled with midfield, both elite and depth while having a sea of flankers on the list.

There is filling holes with players with transferable skillsets, and there is being caught with your pants down again and again. Davies is the footy dept boss. It's his job to manage this better.

I'm not saying I'd move Davies on, but he's not blameless. It's his responsibility.

Is this list management's fault?

We had Marshall, Eddy and Frampton on our list when we played Trengove, Ryder and Westhoff as key forwards. We had Hayes on our list when we played Finlayson as a ruckman. The list managers can pick these guys for Hinkley but they can't make him play them.

The only real hole on the list is a KPD. That hole was only created because Hinkley didn't want to play a guy who is going to be a ten year KPD at AFL level in Dougal Howard (again, the list managers can deliver Ken the KPD he needs, but they can't force Ken to play him). And it would have been filled by now if not for Andrew Mackie being a campaigner who refused to trade a player in circumstances where every other club in the league bar maybe Essendon would have.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

CD is far from blameless, but he's one of the last I'm going after.

 

[Wargreymon90]

I love the contempt in his voice when anyone mentions the crows when asking him a question.

 

[PatientMental]

I love the contempt in his voice when anyone mentions the crows when asking him a question.

Ah yes. Contempt for an uncompetitive minnow.

King shit.

 

[Jonts]

While Davies has been our footy boss we played Jackson Trengove as a ruckman and then a key forward. We played a key forward line of Ryder and Westhoff. We're playing Finlayson as a ruckman. We're playing undersized key defenders and getting burned. Over the years we've struggled with midfield, both elite and depth while having a sea of flankers on the list.

There is filling holes with players with transferable skillsets, and there is being caught with your pants down again and again. Davies is the footy dept boss. It's his job to manage this better.

I'm not saying I'd move Davies on, but he's not blameless. It's his responsibility.

All of those times though weve had decent options available in the 2s

Thought the leader of the we need to play our young KPFs would get that

 

[Duck Farmer]

If Davies has been sounded out twice by the head office about switching for what would be a significant pay increase and higher potential job position and decides to stay, I say thank you for your support.

He should have used it to hold a gun to Koch's head to force an unwarranted contract extension and substantial pay increase.

Has he learned nothing from Hinkley?

Amateur.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Is this list management's fault?

We had Marshall, Eddy and Frampton on our list when we played Trengove, Ryder and Westhoff as key forwards. We had Hayes on our list when we played Finlayson as a ruckman. The list managers can pick these guys for Hinkley but they can't make him play them.

The only real hole on the list is a KPD. That hole was only created because Hinkley didn't want to play a guy who is going to be a ten year KPD at AFL level in Dougal Howard (again, the list managers can deliver Ken the KPD he needs, but they can't force Ken to play him). And it would have been filled by now if not for Andrew Mackie being a campaigner who refused to trade a player in circumstances where every other club in the league bar maybe Essendon would have.

All of those times though weve had decent options available in the 2s

Thought the leader of the we need to play our young KPFs would get that

Davies works with the coaches to give them what they want, ideally. He oversees both coaching and list management. If the coaches and list management team are butting heads and the coaches won't play the players we have ready to go in the 2s like Hayes this year, that's a huge issue.

In 2016, we all knew Ryder was going to be banned, didn't plan for it and ruined Trengove's career. There's another one along with Howard who could still be on our list holding down a KPD spot if we didn't use him out of position and then change the entire defensive setup while he was filling in in the ruck so he couldn't find his way back in.

At the end of 2016 Schulz's body gave out and we insanely delisted our only other AFL experienced KPF aside from Dixon in Butcher, leaving us playing Trengove at KPF for most of the 2017 season. Sure, we had Marshall, Frampton and Eddy, but they were 2 kids and an SANFL player in an era where Hinkley flat out refused to play unproven talls.

These aren't non-issues and the list management team are allowed to talk to the coaches. The fact that we regularly shoehorn players out of position to fill holes is a footy department problem.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

You can give someone the best hammer in the world but if they try to hit the nail in with the handle its not gonna look great.

 

[Janus]

Davies works with the coaches to give them what they want, ideally. He oversees both coaching and list management. If the coaches and list management team are butting heads and the coaches won't play the players we have ready to go in the 2s like Hayes this year, that's a huge issue.

In 2016, we all knew Ryder was going to be banned, didn't plan for it and ruined Trengove's career. There's another one along with Howard who could still be on our list holding down a KPD spot if we didn't use him out of position and then change the entire defensive setup while he was filling in in the ruck so he couldn't find his way back in.

Complete and utter rubbish. Port wanted Ryder to take the deal with ASADA and miss four games with a no-fault admission, but Monfries and his ****ing buddies at Essendon convinced Paddy to stick with them because Essendon's lawyers had convinced them that they would get off if no-one broke ranks. I'm sorry that we didn't plan for a player that plays for us to put his old club ahead of the club he played for at the time.

As for Trengove, no one ruined his career other than his own lack of fitness for a key back. He could only manage 82% TOG in 2014 and 90.9% in 2013. Compare that to Aliir who averages 96.5% TOG and 94.6% TOG in his two years for us, or Jonas who has consistently hovered around 90-95% TOG from 2013 onward. Jackson's enemy was the interchange cap and the fact that he was playing as an old school CHB in a game that had begun to require a CHB more in the form of Alex Rance - to not only negate, but to become the genesis point of rebound attacks - to be a premiership contender. That's why he was shunted up forward in 2017.

If you could have combined the defensive prowess of Trengove with the athletic and physical attributes of Howard, you would have had a multiple All Australian CHB.

At the end of 2016 Schulz's body gave out and we insanely delisted our only other AFL experienced KPF aside from Dixon in Butcher, leaving us playing Trengove at KPF for most of the 2017 season. Sure, we had Marshall, Frampton and Eddy, but they were 2 kids and an SANFL player in an era where Hinkley flat out refused to play unproven talls.

Stupidity is continuing to keep a player on your list that you know isn't up to the task just because you're afraid another player might get injured. In a salary capped league resources are finite.

These aren't non-issues and the list management team are allowed to talk to the coaches. The fact that we regularly shoehorn players out of position to fill holes is a footy department problem.

Nah, it's just your perception of it being a problem.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

In 2016, we all knew Ryder was going to be banned, didn't plan for it and ruined Trengove's career. There's another one along with Howard who could still be on our list holding down a KPD spot if we didn't use him out of position and then change the entire defensive setup while he was filling in in the ruck so he couldn't find his way back in.

We had an 84 game ruckman on our list who we did not to trade at the end of 2015 despite excessive offers. The List Management side were absolutely still planning for Ryder possibly getting suspended. People here bitch about us not trading Lobbe, but that was the reason why.

Lobbe did a knee in 2016 and missed most of the season because of that. Frampton also missed most of the season for Magpies due to injury in 2016 as well.

Also WADA submitted the appeal to CAS over the AFL Tribunal's not guilty finding on November 2 2015. Well after the trade period was closed. And then the AFL refused to allow us to recruit a player to replace Ryder once he was suspended.

But yeah playing Trengove in the ruck in 2017 was a list management stuff up for not covering losing three ruckmen.

At the end of 2016 Schulz's body gave out and we insanely delisted our only other AFL experienced KPF aside from Dixon in Butcher, leaving us playing Trengove at KPF for most of the 2017 season. Sure, we had Marshall, Frampton and Eddy, but they were 2 kids and an SANFL player in an era where Hinkley flat out refused to play unproven talls.

So why would you waste a list spot on a player who is not up to AFL standard in Butcher when Hinkley was refusing to play unproven talls? Instead we got another player onto the list who might turn out to be AFL quality.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Complete and utter rubbish. Port wanted Ryder to take the deal with ASADA and miss four games with a no-fault admission, but Monfries and his ******* buddies at Essendon convinced Paddy to stick with them because Essendon's lawyers had convinced them that they would get off if no-one broke ranks. I'm sorry that we didn't plan for a player that plays for us to put his old club ahead of the club he played for at the time.

Planning for a player who we all know might have a year off is exactly what the club should have done, regardless of why that was happening. You can blame Ryder all you want but we all knew it was coming and we were all shocked that we didn't take a backup at the time.

As for Trengove, no one ruined his career other than his own lack of fitness for a key back. He could only manage 82% TOG in 2014 and 90.9% in 2013. Compare that to Aliir who averages 96.5% TOG and 94.6% TOG in his two years for us, or Jonas who has consistently hovered around 90-95% TOG from 2013 onward. Jackson's enemy was the interchange cap and the fact that he was playing as an old school CHB in a game that had begun to require a CHB more in the form of Alex Rance - to not only negate, but to become the genesis point of rebound attacks - to be a premiership contender. That's why he was shunted up forward in 2017.

If you could have combined the defensive prowess of Trengove with the athletic and physical attributes of Howard, you would have had a multiple All Australian CHB.

Trengove was a smart player who absolutely could have adjusted to a modern style of defending as Jonas did. He just didn't get that opportunity because we changed the defensive setup while he was in the ruck. In 2014, Jonas was no better an intercept marker or rebounder than Trengove. I'm not saying he could replace Aliir, but the idea that he couldn't have learned to do as well as what Clurey and Jonas have offered for half a decade? I disagree.

Stupidity is continuing to keep a player on your list that you know isn't up to the task just because you're afraid another player might get injured. In a salary capped league resources are finite.

Butcher would have taken a minimum contract. Leaving ourselves with 1 AFL experienced KPF was a huge mistake and it cost us for years.

Let's not pretend we don't keep players who aren't up to it on the list every year, as does every other club.

 

[Janus]

Planning for a player who we all know might have a year off is exactly what the club should have done, regardless of why that was happening. You can blame Ryder all you want but we all knew it was coming and we were all shocked that we didn't take a backup at the time.

This is the problem with this forum. You lot just focus on the players on our list for any given year and think that is how a professional club runs things. 'Oh, we should have taken a backup ruck just in case we lost Ryder.' Yep, in a non-salary capped league, that's exactly what we should have done and we would have been negligent otherwise. But when you have a limited amount of resources, you need to figure out where the best use of those resources is. Key questions would have been: a) How much experience would a ruck need to have to be able to affect games if Ryder is suspended? Any kid who was still learning would be rubbish and not help at all, so we're not going to draft one. Any state league ruck who would could be good enough to play AFL should be already and wouldn't have been any better than Trengove, who was already proving to be a liability in defence (see below). And any second string ruck who was already playing for another club wouldn't want to be traded to Port just to be used as a 'break-glass' option. Which leaves only one criteria - recruit a ruck that had been delisted...which is EXACTLY what we tried to do with Mark Jamar:

Essendon and Port Adelaide want Mark Jamar

Essendon and Port Adelaide are vying to secure former Demons ruckman Mark Jamar as a top-up player for this season.

www.theage.com.au

But worse than that, you don't consider b) how would recruiting this player for the 2-3 years that it would take to pry them out of Victoria or wherever completely **** up our list management strategy, where we suddenly are paying $350-$400k a year for a ruck that we only really needed for one year now that Ryder is back?

Trengove was a smart player who absolutely could have adjusted to a modern style of defending as Jonas did. He just didn't get that opportunity because we changed the defensive setup while he was in the ruck. In 2014, Jonas was no better an intercept marker or rebounder than Trengove. I'm not saying he could replace Aliir, but the idea that he couldn't have learned to do as well as what Clurey and Jonas have offered for half a decade? I disagree.

If he was a smart player and could adjust to modern defending, why didn't he do just that?

You're speaking as if Trengove didn't go and play for the Western Bulldogs after he played for us. He didn't set the world on fire there, did he? I mean, in 2019, he had 12.6 disposals to Jonas' 15.7 per game, 3.9 marks to Jonas' 5.3 per game, 1.9 rebound 50s to Jonas' 4.6 per game and averaged 158.5 meters gained compared to Jonas' 287.1 per game.

In pretty much all metrics as a defender, Jonas is a) a better defender and b) a better attacking option. And this idea that a 197cm, 97 kg Trengove could have learned to do 'as well as' a 188cm, 90 kg Jonas is pretty poor. If someone is 9 cm taller and 7 kg heavier, I'd be expecting them to be doing better than the shorter and lighter player in terms of a key defensive position, not the same...and certainly not worse.

Butcher would have taken a minimum contract. Leaving ourselves with 1 AFL experienced KPF was a huge mistake and it cost us for years.

Let's not pretend we don't keep players who aren't up to it on the list every year, as does every other club.

Butcher could have paid us to play and I still wouldn't have wasted a spot on the list on him. It's opportunity cost. Going into 2017 it was decided that Trengove would shift into the forward line to support Dixon. We ended up 2nd for goals scored and 2nd for points scored in both average per game and differential per game.

Yes, we keep players who aren't up to it on the list - we will even re-sign players for the express purpose of having the ability to delist them at a later date (see the last contract that Jake Neade got). The problem is that we already had Marshall and Frampton on our list at that point who were showing more than Butcher ever did, so what was the point of keeping him? I'm sure the club could have foreseen that Marshall would lose both parents in 2018.

 

[davo999]

Trengove among others is more proof the players play their best footy at Port .

 

[Spadge]

Jacko was fairly anonymous when he went to the bulldogs wasnt he
Much like Polec

Silk not so much