Chris Grant

[Olmy]

Originally posted by McCartney5
Olmy.. there are even some players that don't deserve to win it like... Akermanis

So exactly why didn't Akermanis deserve to win the Brownlow?

C'mon, out with it, you said it after all! I want good reasons, not just your usual crap either.

I am going to hold you to this one, until you PROVE categorically, that Akermanis didn't deserve the Brownlow.

You won't.

In fact, I doubt you even have the slightest understanding of the Brownlow concept. I guess that ties in with most of your other contributions too.

 

[The Starchild]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky


Chris Grant, yes a champion but a class below the Brereton's , Ablett's, Carey's, Lockett's and Dunstall's.

Cheers

I'd be adding Stephen Kernahan to that list quick smart.

 

[Waltzing Woof Biscuit]

Brereton is rightly remembered for about three great finals games, and his reputation has traded off that ever since. The most inconsistent 'great' that I can recall.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by The Starchild


I'd be adding Stephen Kernahan to that list quick smart.

He'd be around the mark.

My list of best forwards i've seen would go like this:

Ablett

Daylight second

Brereton

Carey

Dunstall

Lockett

Kernahan

Cheers

 

[McCartney5]

Originally posted by Olmy

The Brownlow is not an all-encompassing indicator of how good a player might, or might not have been.

Said it yourself mate..

People are now rating Akermanis along side Ratten, Voss, MacLeod and Cousins.. he is no better than Black or Lappin.. both had more possies this year than him

As far as what I said about Dermie.. he had a great team around him.. Grant has 5 other great players around him.. I would have love to see how Dermie did in the Bulldogs team of the last ten years

I never said anything about his courage

I never said anything about him not being a big game player

He certainly had both

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Chris Grant played in his share of good teams yet he hasn't won finals of his own boot (in some sort of consistent way), Dermie did.
That makes Dermie a better player.

 

[McCartney5]

ok then Carey was better than Ablett

 

[McCartney5]

By the way, if you are even comparing the last 5 years Bulldogs team to Hawthorns 80's team... you must be smoking something

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by McCartney5
ok then Carey was better than Ablett

When did i say that winning games off one's own boot was the only criteria to judge greatness?

BTW Gary Ablett still holds the record for the most goals in a finals series

And no i was not comparing the Doggies and Hawthorn of the late 80's, just pointing out that Chris has played in some decent sides.

 

[McCartney5]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky

When did i say that winning games off one's own boot was the only criteria to judge greatness?

Want me to show you?

Originally posted by phatandphreaky

Chris Grant played in his share of good teams yet he hasn't won finals of his own boot (in some sort of consistent way), Dermie did.
That makes Dermie a better player.

You decided Dermie was a better player by that so I decided Carey was a better player than Ablett by that.. and in that finals series that Ablett kick the most goals.. you lost that grand final too right??

 

[PC28]

Fellas Fellas, please, this is a thread about Chris Grant, so lets keep it that was please.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by McCartney5


Want me to show you?

Please do. Please show me where i said that the ONLY criteria for greatness was the ability to win games of one's own boot.

and in that finals series that Ablett kick the most goals.. you lost that grand final too right??

And your point?

 

[McCartney5]

hardly mattesr how many goals you kick it's the players around you

Which is why I am saying Grant is better than Dermie

Dermie had Dunstall, Tuck, Dipper, Matthews, Langford, Wallace, Platten.. the list goes on and on

Grant has had Johnson, West, Libba and Wynd

Put Grant in West Coast or North Melbournes 90's team and he would be being hailed as one of if not the greatest ever

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by McCartney5

Put Grant in West Coast or North Melbournes 90's team and he would be being hailed as one of if not the greatest ever

Each to their own but that has to be the most ludicrous statement EVER .
From the start i said Chris was a champion but not a all time great

 

[Bulldog1954]

Originally posted by kizza


Come on!
Course he was.
If we take his brownlow record:

In 1996, it all came down to the last round of the year, Essendon v Footscray, we won by 2 pts (i think!), and Hird and Grant were both fantastic. In the brownlow, HIrd got the three because we won, Grant got the 2 votes. Grant came second by a vote!

NExt year, he wins outright, but was robbed by a bull**** suspension, thanks to Ian "i love Carlton" Collins!!


Course he was in the top ten players in the 90's!!

Kizza is officially the smartest Essendon supporter ever born
And as for McCartney5 it is obvious just from your nickname that you are smart.

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky


Better than Dermott Brereton????? Dermie had qualities that Chris grant doesn't. He was able to kick bags of goals on regular occasions, his courage was unquestionable, his toughness at the ball was unheard of and he was a big time finals performer. Something that Chris Grant has never been.

Cheers

Are you therefore placing a question mark over Chris Grants courage?

Im not saying Grant is better but there are a few qualities Chris Grant has, that Dermie didn't

1. When down there Grant is the best CHB in the league. Brereton was only a forward
2. Loyalty: Grant is a one club player, he hasnt had embarrasing stints at other clubs
3. Discipline: Grants physical, but not stupid
4. Humble: Grants not an arrogant bastard
5. Consistency

 

[Grendel]

Originally posted by The_Flying_Egg


Are you therefore placing a question mark over Chris Grants courage?

Im not saying Grant is better but there are a few qualities Chris Grant has, that Dermie didn't

1. When down there Grant is the best CHB in the league. Brereton was only a forward
2. Loyalty: Grant is a one club player, he hasnt had embarrasing stints at other clubs
3. Discipline: Grants physical, but not stupid
4. Humble: Grants not an arrogant bastard
5. Consistency

I saw Dermie play forward, back and through the middle. Only a forward? Bull.

Oh, Grant, gun total gun player. Id pick Dermie over him though, hell id pick Dermie over near enough anyone!

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Chris' stats don't stand up to the theories that he's an all time great :

His major failing is his inabilty to take enough marks.

in 2001 Chris averaged only 5 marks (thats ordinary for a key position player) , 14.68 possessions and 2.1 goals, hardly a performance of an all time great.

Those stats are similar to players that play similar positions yet aren't considered champions:

John Barker 7.27 marks, 13.27 poss and 2.14 goals

Warren Tredrea 7.34 marks, 16.3 poss and 2.21 goals

Jonathon Brown (he's only 19) 6.28 marks, 14 poss and 1.52 goals

Lance Whitnall 6.95 marks, 14.38 poss and 1.76 goals.

Matthew Pavlich (only 19 and played in the worst side in the league) 5.42 marks, 13.76 poss and 1.33 goals.

Ben Graham 6.9 marks, 14.22 poss and 1.5 goals (after speding the first half of the season as a permanent defender).

In fact Chris' marking stats are disgraceful when compared with the majority of key forwards in the league.

Cheers

 

[HighFlyer]

I was almost convinced egg until you mentioned Granty as the best CHB in the competition when he is down there.

Surely your not suggesting that he is better than

Welman, Gaspar, Haye when they play there.

 

[jim440]

High flyer, if you saw Grant in '96 when he played CHB all year, you would comfortably put him ahead of Gaspar, wellman and Hay.
Ask Stewie Loewe R21 Optus Oval (before Stewie got old) Loewe 1 kick, 1 mark; Grant 26 possessions and 12 marks.
The most dominating performance I've ever seen by a defender.

 

[Westy_Boy]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky

In fact Chris' marking stats are disgraceful when compared with the majority of key forwards in the league.

Fat Red quoted this site in his Brett Ratten topic -- check it out.
http://afl.topcities.com/afl/stats/players.html#10


Click on that site, and list the top 20 mark takers over the past 6 years here.


Only 30 odd marks behind Carey.... that disgraceful is it, buddy?


High Flyer,

Jim440 summed it up well.

Apparently Darren Gaspar is the star CHB of the league at the moment, so i'll do a comparison for ya between Grant in his only full season there, and Gaspar this year:


.................Games.......Kicks......... Marks........Handballs ...... Goals
Grant.........22..............267............135...........101.................16

Gaspar.....25..............178............101...........132..................1


Grant accumulated almost 100 more kicks, 35 more marks from 3 less games, and came close to snaring a Brownlow in a team which won just 5 matches. Obviously goals are irrelevant, but it just goes to prove how much more versatile and damaging a player like Grant is.

Or maybe you would want to judge them on consistency? ....what's Gaspar done over the past 5 years in his various roles? Go back to Gaspar's last injury free season in a key defensive position (1999) -- 100 kicks (compared to Grants 267), 43 marks (compared to Grant's 135).

Ignoring stats for minute, tell me who you would rather setting up play from the back half -- Grant or Gaspar? Who would be more likely to kick a 50 metre drop punt onto a leading players chest?

Don't get me wrong by taking this as a crticism of Gaspar -- I reckon he's a brilliant stopper, and I would move heaven and earth to snare him -- But would I choose him over Chris Grant in selecting the best CHB for my team -- No.

 

[Grendel]

Will agree that when played as a pure CHB, right now there isnt another player in the league that is Grants equal in that possie.

Trouble is for the Dogs that they have to play him out of his absolute best possie.

 

[Bulldog1954]

Originally posted by HighFlyer
I was almost convinced egg until you mentioned Granty as the best CHB in the competition when he is down there.

Surely your not suggesting that he is better than

Welman, Gaspar, Haye when they play there.

I am not suggesting he is better then those 3 at CHB, I am suggesting he is far better. He only played one full season there, 96 and he was far better then any of those players.

 

[Bulldog1954]

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Chris' stats don't stand up to the theories that he's an all time great :


John Barker 7.27 marks, 13.27 poss and 2.14 goals

Warren Tredrea 7.34 marks, 16.3 poss and 2.21 goals

Jonathon Brown (he's only 19) 6.28 marks, 14 poss and 1.52 goals

Lance Whitnall 6.95 marks, 14.38 poss and 1.76 goals.

Matthew Pavlich (only 19 and played in the worst side in the league) 5.42 marks, 13.76 poss and 1.33 goals.

Ben Graham 6.9 marks, 14.22 poss and 1.5 goals (after speding the first half of the season as a permanent defender).

In fact Chris' marking stats are disgraceful when compared with the majority of key forwards in the league.

Cheers

They aren't called champions because they ahven't been as good for anywhere near as long. It has taken Barker until now to be good, when Grant was Barkers age he had played 150 games and 300 goals. Grant as you show there got more of the ball then any other CHF, has better disposal then all those CHF mentioned by far. Is a better tackler, shepherder, leader and has better second efforts. And you have used Grants stats from one year, 2001 was no where near Grants best year while for a lot of those other forwards you mentioned it was.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

Originally posted by Bulldog1954


has better disposal then all those CHF mentioned by far.

Have you ever seen Ben Graham kick? When was the last time you saw Chris grant hit a man on the chest with a 65 m kick?

Ben Graham is arguably the best kick in the league, right up there with Nathan Buckley.

BTW Chris Grant's stats were pretty similar in 2000.

Can you honestly tell me that Chris Grant is, at this point, a better CHF than Warren Tredrea?

Cheers