Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - PART III

[foodles05]

Considering we somehow managed to find Ling, Enright, Milburn, Stokes, and Egan after pick 36 it shouldn't be dismissed.

If pick 36 is nothing to get excited about you wouldn't have high expectations at all of picks in the 50s or beyond. Yet somehow McCarthy (pick 66) is talked up like he's a key component and his absence was critical to our chances.

You either don't understand the argument which you are choosing to partake in or you are deliberately being argumentative about something you don't actually believe. How is the fact that there are exceptions to a general outcome a reason for somehow reducing the importance of an argument based on that statistical analysis?

 

[foodles05]

I hear what your saying and don't doubt it's true but there is plenty to be found and I don't think 2nd rounders are anything to dismiss.
Tigers 2017:
3rd Rounders: Astbury, Graham
4th or worse: Butler Broad Castagna Lambert Grimes Houli
Bulldogs 2016:
3rd round: Wood Dickson Hunter Daniel
4th or worse: Cordy, Dahlhouse, JJ!!, Picken, Boyd Morris Roberts Campbell

Hitting those picks is just as important as ever. Now with FA and at least clubs having at least 2 or 3 total guns there actually more important than ever.
Bit of a disadvantage gambling decent picks on extremely injury prone players.

Wow that is unbelievably selective. Scott is potted for getting mature age players and not using draft picks yet you are now using Houli ( a mature age player from a different club) to suit your argument that draft picks are important

 

[Spazz Cat]

You either don't understand the argument which you are choosing to partake in or you are deliberately being argumentative about something you don't actually believe. How is the fact that there are exceptions to a general outcome a reason for somehow reducing the importance of an argument based on that statistical analysis?

Is it really an exception though. I just gave an example of around 20 players just from the last 2 flag teams with all lower picks than that.
& a few a damn good players too not just role players etc

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I disagree with your first part. Don't know where you come up with the opinion that most sides are similar in depth.
After 28-30 for a good 5 years we've had players who literally can't play or have 0 chance of making it. More so than other teams.
Remember in 2015 we copped injuries and Luxford got a couple of games. Even Bates got one. Ahead of GHS BTW who we offeeed a 3 year contract to that year.
Fast forward to 2017 and Murdoch is still getting a pretty regular gig in our team.
Any other team in the whole league have to play someone as raw as O,Connor.
With your last part simples. Play players on form and merit and it works itself out.
If we take names and picks out of it maybe Hamling gets a gig in front of Kolo.
And we figure out he's the better player instead of other clubs doing it for us.
That contradiction works both ways BTW.

Yes. and Murdoch and GHS are AFL capable players. This is similar across the league.
There is one side with great depth, GWS and they are underachieving. Our depth is no worse than about a dozen sides.

Who cares about 2015 with Luxford, that's predating recruiting Dangerfield, Menegola, Ablett, Selwood, Smith, Henderson, Tuohy amongst others. Depth and ability in 2015 is why we went on a massive recruiting drive lol. We have depth now similar to many other sides. Deluded if you think there are so many are better off than that. The AFL has diluted the comp with two extra teams to the point that all finals sides now have weak bottom 6's. The premiers are no different

Disagree strongly on Hamling v Kolo. Kolo is still the better player.
Moot as Hamling bitched out and walked so we'll never find out who'd have been preferred

 

[Spazz Cat]

Wow that is unbelievably selective. Scott is potted for getting mature age players and not using draft picks yet you are now using Houli ( a mature age player from a different club) to suit your argument that draft picks are important

ok take Houli out of it then. Still leaves about 19 bloody players.
Unbelievably selective??? I just chose the last 2 premiership teams. Didn't even mention Sydney or the Crows who get good value on lower picks.
Who's potting Scott? I know this is technically the CS thread but does anyone really give a shit.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Yes. and Murdoch and GHS are AFL capable players. This is similar across the league.
There is one side with great depth, GWS and they are underachieving. Our depth is no worse than about a dozen sides.

Who cares about 2015 with Luxford, that's predating recruiting Dangerfield, Menegola, Ablett, Selwood, Smith, Henderson, Tuohy amongst others. Depth and ability in 2015 is why we went on a massive recruiting drive lol. We have depth now similar to many other sides. Deluded if you think there are so many are better off than that. The AFL has diluted the comp with two extra teams to the point that all finals sides now have weak bottom 6's. The premiers are no different

Disagree strongly on Hamling v Kolo. Kolo is still the better player.
Moot as Hamling bitched out and walked so we'll never find out who'd have been preferred

Umm Hamling bitched out and walked hey.
He got delisted and offered a rookie spot.
Bitched out?? There goes any reasonable argument right there.
Deluded? We played O'Connor.
I watched every game Kolo played last year and I can assure you he wasn't better than Hamling.

 

[Deep]

Yes. and Murdoch and GHS are AFL capable players. This is similar across the league.
There is one side with great depth, GWS and they are underachieving. Our depth is no worse than about a dozen sides.

Who cares about 2015 with Luxford, that's predating recruiting Dangerfield, Menegola, Ablett, Selwood, Smith, Henderson, Tuohy amongst others. Depth and ability in 2015 is why we went on a massive recruiting drive lol. We have depth now similar to many other sides. Deluded if you think there are so many are better off than that. The AFL has diluted the comp with two extra teams to the point that all finals sides now have weak bottom 6's. The premiers are no different

Disagree strongly on Hamling v Kolo. Kolo is still the better player.
Moot as Hamling bitched out and walked so we'll never find out who'd have been preferred

Damn. I'm agreeing with you somehow. At least on depth anyway - it's definitely not the issue here.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Umm Hamling bitched out and walked hey.
He got delisted and offered a rookie spot.
Bitched out?? There goes any reasonable argument right there.
Deluded? We played O'Connor.

So? We played O'Connor. Our depth is not much worse than most of the comp that is claimed.

Best 30 players 2017 finalists.

Adelaide: Crouch, Crouch, Douglas, Laird, Jacobs, Sloane, Talia, Cameron, Brown, Betts, Kelly, Lynch, Smith, Walker, Mackay, Jenkins, Lever, Otten, Knight, Hartigan, Milera, Greenwood, McGovern, Hampton, Seedsman, Menzel, Gallucci, Thompson, Ellis-Yolmen, Keath.

Essendon: Goddard, Zaharakis, McD-Tippa, Daniher, Heppell, Colyer, Merrett, Baguley, McGrath, Hurley, Kelly, Parish, Watson, Fantasia, Hooker, McKenna, Gleeson, Hartley, Green, Stewart, Myers, Bellchambers, Leuenberger, Stanton, Langford, Francis, Dea, Laverde, Brown, Howlett.

Geelong: Dangerfield, Selwood, Selwood, Mackie, Duncan, Lonergan, Tuohy, Taylor, Motlop, Murdoch, Henderson, Menegola, Hawkins, Stewart, Smith, Guthrie, Blicavs, Parsons, Menzel, Bews, Kolodjashnij, Stanley, Cockatoo, Lang, Parfitt, Thurlow, Horlin-Smith, McCarthy, Ruggles, Zuthrie

GWS: Not required, we know they have great depth.

Port: Wines, Ebert, Clurey, Dixon, Westhoff, Gray, Gray, Byrne-Jones, Pittard, Ryder, Powell-Pepper, Boak, Polec, Jonas, Hartlett, Impey, Wingard, Trengove, Houston, Broadbent, Amon, Hombsch, Young, Neade, Ah Chee, Lobbe, Howard, Toumpas, Austin, White

Richmond: Martin, Cotchin, Ellis, Grimes, Rance, Rioli, Castagna, Grigg, Astbury, Nankervis, Lambert, McIntosh, Riewoldt, Butler, Caddy, Prestia, Houli, Edwards, Vlastuin, Short, Broad, Miles, Menadue, Graham, Lloyd, Bolton, Townsend, Conca, Lennon, Griffiths.

Sydney: Franklin, Parker, Smith, Hewett, Mills, Grundy, Hannebery, Lloyd, Jones, Kennedy, Papley, Reid, Heeney, Newman, Towers, Jack, Sinclair, Rampe, Melican, Rohan, Naismith, McVeigh, Tippett, Cunningham, Florent, Laidler, Aliir Aliir, Hayward, Foote, Marsh.

Eagles: Gaff, Sheppard, McGovern, Yeo, Hurn, Darling, Shuey, Naitanui, Mitchell, Sheed, Priddis, Cripps, Duggan, Lecras, Barrass, Hutchings, Redden, Kennedy, Jetta, Wellingham, Nelson, Masten, Hill, Schofield, Butler, Vardy, Petrie, Mackenzie, Mutimer, Lycett.

Now, we can see that for all those sides, the premiers included, that by about the 25th player or so it's merely role players, there's not one there that has super depth to 30 players in this season just gone. All have their share of stars and solid B players. All have role players in there as well. We do not have depth that's significantly worse than those we are competing with. Sad that I had to show each sides nominal best 30 to show it so.

No doubt you'll run through about 5 cats whipping boys listed to show that's not the case but you'll find every club listed here will have players on this list that are similarly whipping boys and have nothing but faults in supporters eyes, alas AFL standard they all are.

 

[Landgraft]

No it's not like that. Just saying drafting vs recruiting.
If you recruit someone who's a high risk of playing not many games you're paying out that wage for 2+ years.

Spent cap only matters if there was a better way to utilise it rendered unavailable. There's no point in resenting a footballer for being overpaid just because of the size of the wage, the club was required to spend that money on someone anyway.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Spent cap only matters if there was a better way to utilise it rendered unavailable. There's no point in resenting a footballer for being overpaid just because of the size of the wage, the club was required to spend that money on someone anyway.

Yeah true

 

[Spazz Cat]

So? We played O'Connor. Our depth is not much worse than most of the comp that is claimed.

Best 30 players 2017 finalists.

Adelaide: Crouch, Crouch, Douglas, Laird, Jacobs, Sloane, Talia, Cameron, Brown, Betts, Kelly, Lynch, Smith, Walker, Mackay, Jenkins, Lever, Otten, Knight, Hartigan, Milera, Greenwood, McGovern, Hampton, Seedsman, Menzel, Gallucci, Thompson, Ellis-Yolmen, Keath.

Essendon: Goddard, Zaharakis, McD-Tippa, Daniher, Heppell, Colyer, Merrett, Baguley, McGrath, Hurley, Kelly, Parish, Watson, Fantasia, Hooker, McKenna, Gleeson, Hartley, Green, Stewart, Myers, Bellchambers, Leuenberger, Stanton, Langford, Francis, Dea, Laverde, Brown, Howlett.

Geelong: Dangerfield, Selwood, Selwood, Mackie, Duncan, Lonergan, Tuohy, Taylor, Motlop, Murdoch, Henderson, Menegola, Hawkins, Stewart, Smith, Guthrie, Blicavs, Parsons, Menzel, Bews, Kolodjashnij, Stanley, Cockatoo, Lang, Parfitt, Thurlow, Horlin-Smith, McCarthy, Ruggles, Zuthrie

GWS: Not required, we know they have great depth.

Port: Wines, Ebert, Clurey, Dixon, Westhoff, Gray, Gray, Byrne-Jones, Pittard, Ryder, Powell-Pepper, Boak, Polec, Jonas, Hartlett, Impey, Wingard, Trengove, Houston, Broadbent, Amon, Hombsch, Young, Neade, Ah Chee, Lobbe, Howard, Toumpas, Austin, White

Richmond: Martin, Cotchin, Ellis, Grimes, Rance, Rioli, Castagna, Grigg, Astbury, Nankervis, Lambert, McIntosh, Riewoldt, Butler, Caddy, Prestia, Houli, Edwards, Vlastuin, Short, Broad, Miles, Menadue, Graham, Lloyd, Bolton, Townsend, Conca, Lennon, Griffiths.

Sydney: Franklin, Parker, Smith, Hewett, Mills, Grundy, Hannebery, Lloyd, Jones, Kennedy, Papley, Reid, Heeney, Newman, Towers, Jack, Sinclair, Rampe, Melican, Rohan, Naismith, McVeigh, Tippett, Cunningham, Florent, Laidler, Aliir Aliir, Hayward, Foote, Marsh.

Eagles: Gaff, Sheppard, McGovern, Yeo, Hurn, Darling, Shuey, Naitanui, Mitchell, Sheed, Priddis, Cripps, Duggan, Lecras, Barrass, Hutchings, Redden, Kennedy, Jetta, Wellingham, Nelson, Masten, Hill, Schofield, Butler, Vardy, Petrie, Mackenzie, Mutimer, Lycett.

Now, we can see that for all those sides, the premiers included, that by about the 25th player or so it's merely role players, there's not one there that has super depth to 30 players in this season just gone. All have their share of stars and solid B players. All have role players in there as well. We do not have depth that's significantly worse than those we are competing with. Sad that I had to show each sides nominal best 30 to show it so.

No doubt you'll run through about 5 cats whipping boys listed to show that's not the case but you'll find every club listed here will have players on this list that are similarly whipping boys and have nothing but faults in supporters eyes, alas AFL standard they all are.

Us and West Coast are clearly the worst on that list.
Now take Lonners, Mackie, Motlop, Ruggles and Lang out and add Ablett.
That brings GHS into our top 26.
What other finalists or non finalists have a player of his quality that high?
We better seriously hope McCarthy and Gregson get on the field a fair bit this season.
Not sure how the f**k our VFL forwards are gonna develop with the ball hardly ever coming in.

 

[catempire]

Can you really be arsed making another thread and moving em all though,

Absolutely not. It’d end up the same way as this cesspool anyway.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Us and West Coast are clearly the worst on that list.
Now take Lonners, Mackie, Motlop, Ruggles and Lang out and add Ablett.
That brings GHS into our top 26.
What other finalists or non finalists have a player of his quality that high?
We better seriously hope McCarthy and Gregson get on the field a fair bit this season.
Not sure how the f**k our VFL forwards are gonna develop with the ball hardly ever coming in.

That's your perception, one I don't agree with. Essendon's is similar, Port's was woeful and has lost a bit to gain a bit so not much better.
Again, these clubs are all similar depth wise, and ALL rely on their stars to win games. Depth is not the reason we're lagging.

I believe there's this event in two weeks, have you heard of it? Yeah it's this big gathering where clubs select players. Who knew.

 

[Spazz Cat]

That's your perception, one I don't agree with. Essendon's is similar, Port's was woeful and has lost a bit to gain a bit so not much better.
Again, these clubs are all similar depth wise, and ALL rely on their stars to win games. Depth is not the reason we're lagging.

I believe there's this event in two weeks, have you heard of it? Yeah it's this big gathering where clubs select players. Who knew.

Umm cmon man. Our top 30 now consists of Buzza, Simpson, Gregson and Cunico.
(Only remaining players to have played an AFL game.)
You reckon Ports isn't much better than that?

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Umm cmon man. Our top 30 now consists of Buzza, Simpson, Gregson and Cunico.
(Only remaining players to have played an AFL game.)
You reckon Ports isn't much better than that?

No I don’t. They had the worst list of the lot. Have lost Trengove, Impey, Lobbe and Ah Chee from the list for Watts (whom I didn’t rate when we were in for him, you can check), Motlop (whom I rate but many here don’t), Rockliff, McKenzie and Trengove. Fractionally better given I don’t rate Watts.

Still have scrubs in their list of 30. Look at it.
You’re looking at it from your “I don’t like Kolo, Blicavs, Guthrie et al” viewpoint but haven’t factored in that fans say the same about their solid role players too. Harshly viewing our players but rose coloured for the rest of these clubs.

 

[Spazz Cat]

No I don’t. They had the worst list of the lot. Have lost Trengove, Impey, Lobbe and Ah Chee from the list for Watts (whom I didn’t rate when we were in for him, you can check), Motlop (whom I rate but many here don’t), Rockliff, McKenzie and Trengove. Fractionally better given I don’t rate Watts.

Still have scrubs in their list of 30. Look at it.
You’re looking at it from your “I don’t like Kolo, Blicavs, Guthrie et al” viewpoint but haven’t factored in that fans say the same about their solid role players too. Harshly viewing our players but rose coloured for the rest of these clubs.

Not really. I don't count those 3 players as depth. They are all best 22 for us when fit.
Re Port: Achee, Impey were borderline 22.
Trengove didn't even get picked for the final and Lobbe barely played a game all year.
Swapped for 2 bonified best 22 in Motlop and Rockliff. Watts prob in their best 22.
McKenzie & Thomas I don't really see the point.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Not really. I don't count those 3 players as depth. They are all best 22 for us when fit.
Re Port: Achee, Impey were borderline 22.
Trengove didn't even get picked for the final and Lobbe barely played a game all year.
Swapped for 2 bonified best 22 in Motlop and Rockliff. Watts prob in their best 22.
McKenzie & Thomas I don't really see the point.

The parameter wasn’t best 22, it was the best 30. All those players were in theirs and ours.

 

[Spazz Cat]

The parameter wasn’t best 22, it was the best 30. All those players were in theirs and ours.

Well in that case it supports my argument even more then.
As much as I don't rate Watts either I'd rather have him as my 17- 22 best player than Murdoch, McCarthy, Blitz, Stanley, Parsons, Zuthrie, GHS, Gregson Buzza

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Well in that case it supports my argument even more then.
As much as I don't rate Watts either I'd rather have him as my 17- 22 best player than Murdoch, McCarthy, Blitz, Stanley, Parsons, Zuthrie, GHS, Gregson Buzza

So I can disregard this given your less than objective views of these players, in fact, you underrate a few of them.

 

[Spazz Cat]

So I can disregard this given your less than objective views of these players, in fact, you underrate a few of them.

Probably. I can admit that.
Except for Zuthrie I'm not all that enamoured with any of them.
Buzza and Parsons have potential but a long way to go.
Gregson showed a bit a couple of years ago.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Probably. I can admit that.
Except for Zuthrie I'm not all that enamoured with any of them.
Buzza and Parsons have potential but a long way to go.
Gregson showed a bit a couple of years ago.

This is precisely my point. We tend to be harsher on ourselves than others.
We view any player that's not a gun much more critically than similar players at other clubs.

That skews the view that we have worse depth than others. I stand by my view, barring GWS most clubs have similar levels of depth, we won't be noticeably weaker for depth than the teams we meet in finals.

 

[Spazz Cat]

This is precisely my point. We tend to be harsher on ourselves than others.
We view any player that's not a gun much more critically than similar players at other clubs.

That skews the view that we have worse depth than others. I stand by my view, barring GWS most clubs have similar levels of depth, we won't be noticeably weaker for depth than the teams we meet in finals.

Fair enough. Gonna have to agree to disagree. Unless we draft really well I can see us struggling for depth and can really see the VFL team struggling.
Let's hope your right and I'm wrong.
Also I see plenty of shit trucks for those teams including Port.
Most notably their captain.

 

[cynical]

This is precisely my point. We tend to be harsher on ourselves than others.
We view any player that's not a gun much more critically than similar players at other clubs.

That skews the view that we have worse depth than others. I stand by my view, barring GWS most clubs have similar levels of depth, we won't be noticeably weaker for depth than the teams we meet in finals.

Simply not true our depth is shockingly bad compared to other clubs and it will continually get worse. The only thing that shields us is our very strong midfield. List spots 25+ are mostly list cloggers and very late picks (who are mostly list cloggers).

We lost 4 players and gained 1 back in the trade period.

Puts a heavy reliance on us picking up 1-2 ready to go players.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Simply not true our depth is shockingly bad compared to other clubs and it will continually get worse. The only thing that shields us is our very strong midfield. List spots 25+ are mostly list cloggers and very late picks (who are mostly list cloggers).

We lost 4 players and gained 1 back in the trade period.

Puts a heavy reliance on us picking up 1-2 ready to go players.

Okay. I concede, you are right.
Now shut up about the coach then, he's clearly overachieving to get this shit list into the top 4.

Checkmate.

 

[JumpyHolden]

Considering we somehow managed to find Ling, Enright, Milburn, Stokes, and Egan after pick 36 it shouldn't be dismissed.

If pick 36 is nothing to get excited about you wouldn't have high expectations at all of picks in the 50s or beyond. Yet somehow McCarthy (pick 66) is talked up like he's a key component and his absence was critical to our chances.

The problem is how you develop later pick players, Bomber was wonderful as a developer he didn't have a problem turning players picked late into good players, under the current Dodo players such as Paul Chapman, Cameron Ling, Corey Enright, Josh Hunt and Matthew Egan may have turned out like your GHS's, Murdoch's etc. Coaching has everything to do with it, i would go as far as saying that if you gave those same players that Bomber had to Scott at least half wouldn't of made it.