Claremont Murders - Crime writers Warner Blackburn Marshall - The investigation - Former suspects & POI - The good, the bad & the ugly theories

one eyed spy

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Possible imo your earlier theory they matched a random DNA familial, had to work out what the relationship was then the investigative work started. Checking the family history led them into Huntingdale so they looked at historical crime, that led them to reopen the Huntingdale file, find the fingerprints and retest the kimono.

In which case, they could well have been working towards arresting BRE and had eyes on him for longer than a couple of weeks.
As soon as they had DNA which didnt match anyone they'd have immediately done a broader search to see if they could trace a relative. Without drawing any conclusions, I'd think theres as good a chance as any that someone in the family had come to some attention previously, how closely related would depend on how quickly any such partial would have given them the person they believe is responsible. Seems to be a large proportion of males to females represented to choose from too.
Personally I dont believe the Kimono match was the be all and end all lucky break they'd been holding out for which gave them their break. It may have given them the piece they needed to obtain an arrest warrant or to narrow their focus to one specific person, but I dont think the testing of the Kimono was random.
 

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one eyed spy

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Very interesting. Suzanna Candy (victim of Birnies taken and murdered when 15 and hitchhiking on Stirling Hwy) was only 2 years older than Jane Rimmer and at same school.

Kate Moir 4 years older (tricked into visiting Birnie's house and the survivor) and went to the same school as Jane.

Jane must have been very aware of the dangers of hitchhiking and the Birnie serial killers. It would seem very unlikely that she would have got into any car with any stranger, unless it was a taxi I assume. She was last seen outside the Conti as though waiting for someone after her friends went home in a taxi.

So are the prosecution going to say the accused was known to Jane, or he masqueraded as a taxi driver?
Kate got into their car voluntarily. It was the first victim Mary Nielsen who went looking for tyres.

I think the passage of time would have dulled memories of abduction being at the forefront of girls minds but I agree that Jane would likely have been very aware of the dangers & probably been more cautious than perhaps others.
 

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Possible imo your earlier theory they matched a random DNA familial, had to work out what the relationship was then the investigative work started. Checking the family history led them into Huntingdale so they looked at historical crime, that led them to reopen the Huntingdale file, find the fingerprints and retest the kimono.

In which case, they could well have been working towards arresting BRE and had eyes on him for longer than a couple of weeks.
Familial check then link found? Research showed link to huntingdale? Then to prowler then kimono then to accused then history.
 

shellyg

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Familial check then link found? Research showed link to huntingdale? Then to prowler then kimono then to accused then history.
Could be, they're either not ready to tell us or hoping to keep it quiet.

Seems a bit too lucky that after sitting over twenty five years in storage, the kimono was taken out for retesting as part of a routine cold case review. And oh look! Fingerprints as well.
 

petedavo

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Could be, they're either not ready to tell us or hoping to keep it quiet.

Seems a bit too lucky that after sitting over twenty five years in storage, the kimono was taken out for retesting as part of a routine cold case review. And oh look! Fingerprints as well.
I think the Timeline of tests and matches could be be potentially important.

For everyone speculating about what to to what, it's all pretty clear if you read these two articles IMO.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...ital-clue-ng-d5498c5d0593771d7f526f90646d52f0

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...helped-lead-to-an-arrest-20190219-p50yw8.html

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shellyg

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I think the Timeline of tests and matches could be be potentially important.

For everyone speculating about what to to what, it's all pretty clear if you read these two articles IMO.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...ital-clue-ng-d5498c5d0593771d7f526f90646d52f0

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...helped-lead-to-an-arrest-20190219-p50yw8.html

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It seems to be as was the theory that his name essentially jumped out at them from inside that cold case file But ... one journalist in a recent article has alluded to something else they might not be telling us yet.

And if there is something they aren't telling us yet, it's whatever pointers they got to reopen that old file imo. I recall at one of the hearings (not propensity) Barbagallo said an expert on a particular DNA sample which when I looked indicated sibling, was consulted in London.
 

petedavo

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It seems to be as was the theory that his name essentially jumped out at them from inside that cold case file But ... one journalist in a recent article has alluded to something else they might not be telling us yet.

And if there is something they aren't telling us yet, it's whatever pointers they got to reopen that old file imo. I recall at one of the hearings (not propensity) Barbagallo said an expert on a particular DNA sample which when I looked indicated sibling, was consulted in London.
This is the article you're after, but don't know it yet.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thewest.com.au/news/wa/police-seek-new-dna-test-tool-ng-ya-226932.amp

I missed this one earlier.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thewes...s-questions-about-evidence-ng-b881111820z.amp

Another article that probably said more than it should at the time
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thewes...ps-police-close-in-on-killer-ng-ya-135887.amp

And as for the timeline of testing and matching...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thewes...for-claremont-serial-killer-ng-b88342709z.amp


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one eyed spy

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I anxious for clarification of JR fibres, its never made sense what really happened to them & when.
Articles say they were lost when sent to the wrong lab and not recovered until 2011. Then when tested they revealed a break through clue regarding the make & model of the car they came from.

However comments from Paul Schramm after that review in 2004 have him saying they realised that the fibres recovered from JR's body hadn't been compared against known vehicles or POI & thought they'd be likely to yield good results if that was done.

To me that suggests they had already been tested at some point before 2004 & at the least knew they were upholstery fibres that just hadn't been compared to known vehicles or poi, so must have gone missing sometime after that. If they were sent for additional tests on those recommendations I find it incredible that no one was tracking them or awaiting the results & no one picked up fairly quickly that they hadn't had anything come back, say the following year at the latest. Instead, 7 additional years pass until someone comes across them by chance? Wtf? Who knows what the hell happened to them in between if not one cop chased them down in the meantime & not one lab staff member followed them up & wondered where the sample came from & what was supposed to be done with it?

Mind you it still took another 4 years from the time Schramm identified the overlooked items to when the item of CG's was finally sent to UK for testing & DNA results returned soon after. Even still I think in the ordinary course of things a positive DNA match from 1 of the 2 items would have sent someone frantically looking for the 2nd item again to see what those results may tell them. Say by 2009.

Apparently not though. 2011 they found them again & presumably tested them then.

Not even the explanation of "lost" evidence as given in Warks trial will wash with this CSK evidence now. Police in his trial testified that "lost" didnt actually mean lost as in missing & no one knew where they were, rather that particular evidence wasnt known to exist to investigators on the case until that time. Well, reviews in CSK case prove they did know this evidence existed so I'll bet that "lost" probably did mean unable to be found. So incompetent IMO.
 

Melsy

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Having the offender’s unique “genetic fingerprints” on file means he has to watch his step if he wants to stay free.

So an officer had him by the balls in 1988 but never entered the prints to the national database?

The prints didn't match Masters, so how come there wasn't a match a long time ago against a 1990 arrest?
 

Melsy

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You know, there has been a lot of luck in this case. There has been so much luck, it is mind boggling considering the amount of money ploughed into the search. Tens of millions of dollars.
 

Melsy

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Already denied being anywhere near the girls? Doesn't know how DNA came to be present.

1. Innocent contact - Where would this happen on the day? Ciara had been on holidays for months.
2. Adventurous contact - I hope they have crossed check adventitious reference. There are multiple samples.
3. Contamination in the collection process - Given the number of samples and the different crime locations. Whats the chances?

“With count eight (Ms Glennon’s murder) are there other possibilities ... innocent contact, adventitious match or contamination in the collection or testing process?
https://thewest.com.au/news/claremo...aises-questions-about-evidence-ng-b881111820z
 

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Melsy

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1988 Huntingdale Kimono semen DNA cross reference to 1 and 4. (Both DNA and fingerprints on-site)

1. Telstra Van issued at the time of 1995 crime (semen DNA - DNA cross reference to 4) Rope handcuff knot reference
2. Telstra Camry issued at the time of Sarah 1996.
3. Telstra VS Commodore issued at the time of Jane (Commodore seat & carpet fibres cross reference to 4) (Telstra knife - wood handle)
4. Telstra VS Commodore issued at the time of Ciara (Commodore seat & carpet fibres cross reference to 3) (DNA cross reference to 1)

Telstra Knife?
Telstra rope?
Telstra chemcials?
Telstra fibres? (Commodore (VS) is an executive car which was produced by the Australian manufacturer Holden from 1995 to 1997)

Telstra kept their cars 40000km or 2 years before being auctioned at government auctions.
 
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GreyCrow

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Already denied being anywhere near the girls? Doesn't know how DNA came to be present.

1. Innocent contact - Where would this happen on the day? Ciara had been on holidays for months.
2. Adventurous contact - I hope they have crossed check adventitious reference. There are multiple samples.
3. Contamination in the collection process - Given the number of samples and the different crime locations. Whats the chances?

“With count eight (Ms Glennon’s murder) are there other possibilities ... innocent contact, adventitious match or contamination in the collection or testing process?
https://thewest.com.au/news/claremo...aises-questions-about-evidence-ng-b881111820z
You make some interesting points

A: I wasnt at the nightclubs 1. Ok so how did the contact DNA occur?

B: I was at the nightclubs 2. So why didnt you come forward when asked?
 

Melsy

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You make some interesting points

A: I wasnt at the nightclubs 1. Ok so how did the contact DNA occur?

B: I was at the nightclubs 2. So why didnt you come forward when asked?
B. So who are you in this video. Where are you.

Given that Ciara had been away for months, and she was at The Conti for 20 minutes

His DNA resides on multiple victims. How do you propose DNA got here on this occasion?
 
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B. So who are you you in this video.

Given that Ciara had been away for months, and she was at The Conti for 20 minutes

His DNA resides on multiple victims.
Where does it say DNA transfers took place in a nightclub … it makes no sense at all that the DNA evidence offered up so far could have taken place in a nightclub …
 
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The accused's DNA seems to have been overlooked for years … is it possible that the DNA of others who may have been involved was also overlooked , this could lead to " I was there , BUT "
 

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I'm feeling a little defeated as I can see the defence stating the cross contamination would have happened during the lost & then found fibres from the car & the two victims having it in their hair :huh:
The accused's DNA seems to have been overlooked for years … is it possible that the DNA of others who may have been involved was also overlooked , this could lead to " I was there , BUT "
I dont know about involvement but I expect the defence to ask for everybody that has DNA on items to be identified , either as suspects or Investigative Workers, just to muddy the waters
 

one eyed spy

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Having the offender’s unique “genetic fingerprints” on file means he has to watch his step if he wants to stay free.

So an officer had him by the balls in 1988 but never entered the prints to the national database?

The prints didn't match Masters, so how come there wasn't a match a long time ago against a 1990 arrest?
Take your pick of any no. of likely reasons. They didnt discover a match though & at the end of the day, they just didnt discover it. Thats it.

If you want a logical reason I find very easy to comprehend, maybe its because it took another 14 years for a fingerprint database which searched for matches automatically to be established & by then a series of brief incidents, the majority relating to stolen woman's clothes within a very small area of a 1km radius over a period of less than 8 weeks which had apparently stopped 3 years prior probably wasnt even remembered let alone considered very important amongst all the unsolved rapes, murders, missing women cases plus probably another 100 similar reports of stolen underwear all over the metro area. Its really that simple IMO.
 

one eyed spy

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You make some interesting points

A: I wasnt at the nightclubs 1. Ok so how did the contact DNA occur?

B: I was at the nightclubs 2. So why didnt you come forward when asked?
They both reached for a napkin at the same time in a cafe in the city at lunch time & she scratched him accidently. He didnt know it was her & doesnt recall the incident.

They were in the same deli early that morning and she was given the note he bought an ice coffee with as change. He had it scrunched up in the pocket his hand was in. She ran it under her thumb nail while she waited for the bus.

She used a phone box he had just repaired and broke her nail dialing the number or she ran her thumb along an edge he'd touched just prior & picked up his DNA.

He stopped to offer her a lift on the highway because he recognised her from prior legal functions with his wife. She declined but she picked up traces of his DNA on her hands from leaning into his car.

Highly unlikely, maybe.
Impossible, probably not.

Im sure I could come up with plenty more reasons where neither person would have been aware of the others presence & one walked away with the other persons DNA on them.

The majority of the alleged incidents we learnt about recently wouldnt have been known to them prior to arrest. They've spent over 2 years scraping around trying to find anything they can to convict this guy. Im sure they could've found just as many people & probably more claiming they were picked up by LW if he was ever actually arrested & charged too.

The witnesses that got into a car with him previosly obviously got out again so who knows if the girls that were killed did actually encounter him or not. It was said that a man "broadly" matching Edwards description wa offering girls lifts either claiming he worked for Telstra or in a Telstra vehicle. They already investigated a telstra worker and found nothing to link him. Doesnt mean that wasnt him though. Hypothetically, what if BREs a rapist only, nothing else & the murderer is another Telstra worker who happened to purposely take the rope & anything else he used in the murders from BREs car knowing his DNA would be all over it. Drove the same model car as BRE so thats proves nothing either.

Or what if he wasnt a telstra worker at all but had fake decals like the cabbys without the meters had, they even had roof top signs. Or maybe he had access to Telstra cars.

Id be interested to know if the stories hes apparently edited had any elements of murder in them as well, that may be telling.

Im not attempting to jump to his defense or claim his innocence, I'm just pointing out that sometimes no matter how bad a picture you can paint of someone when your desperately attempting to and with a truck load of resources and manpower to do it, you can come up with something that looks solidly convincing, but is also very wrong.
 

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The sandwich bags changes everything.
Was he freezing the sperm for later or were the bags immediately disposed of?

What brings about such obsession with extreme sexual experience? I'm surprised the relationships lasted as long as they did with sexual obsessiveness with home made objects and versions of certain extreme sex movies.
 
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Melsy

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They both reached for a napkin at the same time in a cafe in the city at lunch time & she scratched him accidently. He didnt know it was her & doesnt recall the incident.

They were in the same deli early that morning and she was given the note he bought an ice coffee with as change. He had it scrunched up in the pocket his hand was in. She ran it under her thumb nail while she waited for the bus.

She used a phone box he had just repaired and broke her nail dialing the number or she ran her thumb along an edge he'd touched just prior & picked up his DNA.

He stopped to offer her a lift on the highway because he recognised her from prior legal functions with his wife. She declined but she picked up traces of his DNA on her hands from leaning into his car.

Highly unlikely, maybe.
Impossible, probably not.

Im sure I could come up with plenty more reasons where neither person would have been aware of the others presence & one walked away with the other persons DNA on them.

The majority of the alleged incidents we learnt about recently wouldnt have been known to them prior to arrest. They've spent over 2 years scraping around trying to find anything they can to convict this guy. Im sure they could've found just as many people & probably more claiming they were picked up by LW if he was ever actually arrested & charged too.

The witnesses that got into a car with him previosly obviously got out again so who knows if the girls that were killed did actually encounter him or not. It was said that a man "broadly" matching Edwards description wa offering girls lifts either claiming he worked for Telstra or in a Telstra vehicle. They already investigated a telstra worker and found nothing to link him. Doesnt mean that wasnt him though. Hypothetically, what if BREs a rapist only, nothing else & the murderer is another Telstra worker who happened to purposely take the rope & anything else he used in the murders from BREs car knowing his DNA would be all over it. Drove the same model car as BRE so thats proves nothing either.

Or what if he wasnt a telstra worker at all but had fake decals like the cabbys without the meters had, they even had roof top signs. Or maybe he had access to Telstra cars.

Id be interested to know if the stories hes apparently edited had any elements of murder in them as well, that may be telling.

Im not attempting to jump to his defense or claim his innocence, I'm just pointing out that sometimes no matter how bad a picture you can paint of someone when your desperately attempting to and with a truck load of resources and manpower to do it, you can come up with something that looks solidly convincing, but is also very wrong.
Ciara was away for months. Any contact with clothing would have to be very recent if not that day of the incident.

Has anyone have any evidence that would exonerate him? Fibres and DNA not being a good combination.
 

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They both reached for a napkin at the same time in a cafe in the city at lunch time & she scratched him accidently. He didnt know it was her & doesnt recall the incident.

They were in the same deli early that morning and she was given the note he bought an ice coffee with as change. He had it scrunched up in the pocket his hand was in. She ran it under her thumb nail while she waited for the bus.

She used a phone box he had just repaired and broke her nail dialing the number or she ran her thumb along an edge he'd touched just prior & picked up his DNA.

He stopped to offer her a lift on the highway because he recognised her from prior legal functions with his wife. She declined but she picked up traces of his DNA on her hands from leaning into his car.

Highly unlikely, maybe.
Impossible, probably not.

Im sure I could come up with plenty more reasons where neither person would have been aware of the others presence & one walked away with the other persons DNA on them.

The majority of the alleged incidents we learnt about recently wouldnt have been known to them prior to arrest. They've spent over 2 years scraping around trying to find anything they can to convict this guy. Im sure they could've found just as many people & probably more claiming they were picked up by LW if he was ever actually arrested & charged too.

The witnesses that got into a car with him previosly obviously got out again so who knows if the girls that were killed did actually encounter him or not. It was said that a man "broadly" matching Edwards description wa offering girls lifts either claiming he worked for Telstra or in a Telstra vehicle. They already investigated a telstra worker and found nothing to link him. Doesnt mean that wasnt him though. Hypothetically, what if BREs a rapist only, nothing else & the murderer is another Telstra worker who happened to purposely take the rope & anything else he used in the murders from BREs car knowing his DNA would be all over it. Drove the same model car as BRE so thats proves nothing either.

Or what if he wasnt a telstra worker at all but had fake decals like the cabbys without the meters had, they even had roof top signs. Or maybe he had access to Telstra cars.

Id be interested to know if the stories hes apparently edited had any elements of murder in them as well, that may be telling.

Im not attempting to jump to his defense or claim his innocence, I'm just pointing out that sometimes no matter how bad a picture you can paint of someone when your desperately attempting to and with a truck load of resources and manpower to do it, you can come up with something that looks solidly convincing, but is also very wrong.
This will be an 'and and and' case, and guilt is decided beyond reasonable doubt. Sure she might have accidentally scratched him reaching for a napkin and sure someone from Telecom may have stolen some things from him and then killed the girls and sure he has a porn addiction and sure he's written and downloaded some disturbing stories with similarities to what actually happened, blah blah blah... all of those things in isolation could happen, but if there's this and this and this and this, etc, the case eventually gets to beyond reasonable doubt. It's why prosecutors and police gather as much evidence as they can, no matter how insignificant it might seem in isolation.
 
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