Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt2

[Kurve]

Here is Claremont Murders - Part One
- Media
- The Bunker
- Hey Bret ...? Unexplained trial mysteries & CSK Supreme Court cliffhangers

 

[Power Raid]

The defence will certainly appeal unless there is an aquittal on all murder charges. A question will be how much Legal Aid is prepared to spend on an appeal.

On the evidence and trial history there seem to be very few grounds for an appeal. Hall has been scrupulously fair and the defence had every opportunity to mount a significant case but chose not to. Even the defence cross examinations were totally bland; they tended to assist the court in clarifying elements of evidence that did not get explained well in the prosecution lead . This of course is not a problem as the defence are as much officers of the court as the prosecution (even Hall got into the game by asking fairly obvious questions that prosecution and defence had missed).

The appeal will mostly come down to elements in the written judgement which we are unlikley to see for some months.

I'm also thinking we won't hear any negotiation on body locations, if remembered, until after an appeal is heard or denied

 

[the dark knight]

I'm also thinking we won't hear any negotiation on body locations, if remembered, until after an appeal is heard or denied

Let’s hope he gives up SS body location.
I think he’ll be found guilty charges relating to CG
Still 50/50 on charges with JR
Not guilty (unless the prosecution pulls out last minute) on SS charges.

 

[Power Raid]

Let’s hope he gives up SS body location.
I think he’ll be found guilty charges relating to CG
Still 50/50 on charges with JR
Not guilty (unless the defence pulls out last minute) on SS charges.

as an individual gut feel rather than a court perspective, do you feel he's guilty on SS? if so, why?

 

[zedx]

IMHO there is no chance at all he will be found guilty for SS, as there was not one scrap of evidence which pointed to him and i don't think he will ever give her location up (if he is guilty). I say this because he has come across as very calm and demure throughout the trial. In fact he has basically said and done nothing! No hint of his personality at all. Too me this says he is very cold and calculating and so he will hold onto this information, but, I would not be surprised if at some if he hints to the truth to a cell mate. I think he thinks hes too smart for every one.

 

[JWS2019]

I’m undecided and I know it’s just a guess!
1. Guilty on CG
2. JR undecided - if Hall can find the write legal avenues - maybe?
3. Not guilty SS

Hall is definitely doing well at doing everything he can to avoid injustice/appeal so I’m really not sure how this will play out.

Just wondering the court did close a couple of times - whatever was aired in closed court, question ?would this have already been brought up If there was something important, and disclosed in open court with required redaction? or will we find out after the decision ? (Hope that makes sense!)

 

[JWS2019]

as an individual gut feel rather than a court perspective, do you feel he's guilty on SS? if so, why?

Good question on this one PR!
I think he’s guilty on this but there is doubt as well. We don’t really have anything solid ?
Do you have any thoughts on this on what Might be considered solid?

 

[JWS2019]

I must also say the evidence they brought in with respect of missing and murdered etc actually put more doubt in my mind. I don’t think the prosecution should have included this.

It doesn’t make sense to say he was the only capable person to commit these attacks.

 

[JWS2019]

I propose a guessing contest for the length of closing addresses. Not sure what first prize would be yet. Winner is closest to the actual time.

My guesses:
Prosecution 1 day
Defence 40 minutes.

Edit: I'm being serious!! (for once)

I’m going to go out here on a limb first thoughts what you have. But I’m hopeful Yovich might save his best for last!
Prosecution: 2 hours
Defence: 1 day

 

[the dark knight]

as an individual gut feel rather than a court perspective, do you feel he's guilty on SS? if so, why?

My bad, Unless the prosecution pulls out regarding the charges to SS.
I feel he is the reason SS is missing. But it’s only based on propensity. Obviously that’s not enough alone to gain a conviction. Bit hard to say without a body or evidence.

 

[the dark knight]

IMHO there is no chance at all he will be found guilty for SS, as there was not one scrap of evidence which pointed to him and i don't think he will ever give her location up (if he is guilty). I say this because he has come across as very calm and demure throughout the trial. In fact he has basically said and done nothing! No hint of his personality at all. Too me this says he is very cold and calculating and so he will hold onto this information, but, I would not be surprised if at some if he hints to the truth to a cell mate. I think he thinks hes too smart for every one.

I agree with exception to the last sentence. IMO I don’t think he is of high intelligence. Cold and calculating? I agree there.

 

[Power Raid]

IMHO there is no chance at all he will be found guilty for SS, as there was not one scrap of evidence which pointed to him and i don't think he will ever give her location up (if he is guilty). I say this because he has come across as very calm and demure throughout the trial. In fact he has basically said and done nothing! No hint of his personality at all. Too me this says he is very cold and calculating and so he will hold onto this information, but, I would not be surprised if at some if he hints to the truth to a cell mate. I think he thinks hes too smart for every one.

Good question on this one PR!
I think he’s guilty on this but there is doubt as well. We don’t really have anything solid ?
Do you have any thoughts on this on what Might be considered solid?

I thought the same thing about the evidence issue and even queried how a charge could be laid. According to lawyers 100% circumstantial evidence and or propensity is enough on SS due to the similarities with other crimes.

That's why I ask on gut feel, do you think he's guilty of SS. If it's yes because of the Huntigdale, HH, KK and CG; then I feel the courts will see it the same way.

No alibi, consistent lies and unreliable witness, DNA, fibre, similarities in crimes in my opinion will see him found guilty on all 3 girls and associated charges.

 

[the dark knight]

I thought the same thing about the evidence issue and even queried how a charge could be laid. According to lawyers 100% circumstantial evidence and or propensity is enough on SS due to the similarities with other crimes.

That's why I ask on gut feel, do you think he's guilty of SS. If it's yes because of the Huntigdale, HH, KK and CG; then I feel the courts will see it the same way.

No alibi, consistent lies and unreliable witness, DNA, fibre, similarities in crimes in my opinion will see him found guilty on all 3 girls and associated charges.

Agree 100%.

 

[zedx]

I thought the same thing about the evidence issue and even queried how a charge could be laid. According to lawyers 100% circumstantial evidence and or propensity is enough on SS due to the similarities with other crimes.

That's why I ask on gut feel, do you think he's guilty of SS. If it's yes because of the Huntigdale, HH, KK and CG; then I feel the courts will see it the same way.

No alibi, consistent lies and unreliable witness, DNA, fibre, similarities in crimes in my opinion will see him found guilty on all 3 girls and associated charges.

My gut tells me he took SS, but my conscience keeps popping up saying maybe he didnt!

 

[JezzaPerth]

My gut tells me he took SS, but my conscience keeps popping up saying maybe he didnt!

He's totally done on KK. It's inevitible he will be done for Ciara, almost certainly for Jane. The defence have not raised similar cases to any of the victims - in time or space.

I'd say that SS based on the similar evidence is in the highly probable conviction category. It all comes down to whether he is convicted on Jane.

 

[Krusty Crab]

I propose a guessing contest for the length of closing addresses. Not sure what first prize would be yet. Winner is closest to the actual time.

My guesses:
Prosecution 1 day
Defence 40 minutes.

Edit: I'm being serious!! (for once)

my guess - prosecution 4.5 hours, defence 30 minutes

 

[Krusty Crab]

I thought the same thing about the evidence issue and even queried how a charge could be laid. According to lawyers 100% circumstantial evidence and or propensity is enough on SS due to the similarities with other crimes.

That's why I ask on gut feel, do you think he's guilty of SS. If it's yes because of the Huntigdale, HH, KK and CG; then I feel the courts will see it the same way.

No alibi, consistent lies and unreliable witness, DNA, fibre, similarities in crimes in my opinion will see him found guilty on all 3 girls and associated charges.

gut feel is he responsible for SS - yes. will he get a guilty verdict for SS - no.

my opinion on charges:

KK - guilty
huntingdale - guilty
CG - guilty
JR - guilty
SS - not guilty

the only thing linking SS to these crimes is the way she vanished, and a car similar to one the accused had access to was sighted near an area where some screams were heard. Thats it. not enough to say it was him beyond reasonable doubt. why take the chance on a guilty verdict for this crime and possibility of an appeal by the defence, when if hes found guilty of the other four he will be inside until the new century dawns anyway.

rather than a finding of not guilty on the SS charge, is it possible to have a finding that says the prosecution haven't proven there case by lack of evidence, so the charge is dismissed, which then means he can be tried for the crime later?

 

[Kurve]

Yovich might blow us away on closing arguments, something to do with the weather in Gosnells.

 

[Krusty Crab]

Yovich might blow us away on closing arguments, something to do with the weather in Gosnells.

i was thinking a 30 minute recap of the varied witness statements describing other people and cars, the lack of anything to do with SS, and how a guilty plea to huntingdale and KK does not make his client a murderer. either that or hes planning on using the chewbacca defence in closing, which will be more intensive than his defence case as it is now.

 

[GreyCrow]

rather than a finding of not guilty on the SS charge, is it possible to have a finding that says the prosecution haven't proven there case by lack of evidence, so the charge is dismissed, which then means he can be tried for the crime later?

Its possible. Depends on how Hall sees it (from page 43)

https://criminalcpd.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/abuse-of-judicial-process-criminal-cle-0117.pdf

207. In R v Yl97 the Director of Public Prosecutions attempted to file a nolle prosequi in order to avoid the trial judge finalising the matter. 208. Crispin J stated: 73. As Macrossan CJ and Thomas J pointed out in R v Jell, ex parte Attorney-General (1991) 1 Qd R 48 it is possible to identify some instances of an abuse of process justifying the Courts in refusing to permit the entry of a nolle prosequi. The instances which their Honours noted were:

(i) where the jury, by request for redirection, may have so signalled their likely verdict that an "unscrupulous prosecutor" might seek to avoid it by entering a nolle prosequi even at that late stage;

(ii) where the case has gone badly for the prosecution and it is conceivable that it might turn out better in a subsequent trial; (

The issue is the State were always going to struggle to link SS without anything but propensity. Even the witness evidence wasnt definitive

Could the Prosecution use Nolle Prosequi ? Sure - will Hall allow them to is the question

 

[Krusty Crab]

Its possible. Depends on how Hall sees it (from page 43)

https://criminalcpd.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/abuse-of-judicial-process-criminal-cle-0117.pdf

207. In R v Yl97 the Director of Public Prosecutions attempted to file a nolle prosequi in order to avoid the trial judge finalising the matter. 208. Crispin J stated: 73. As Macrossan CJ and Thomas J pointed out in R v Jell, ex parte Attorney-General (1991) 1 Qd R 48 it is possible to identify some instances of an abuse of process justifying the Courts in refusing to permit the entry of a nolle prosequi. The instances which their Honours noted were:

(i) where the jury, by request for redirection, may have so signalled their likely verdict that an "unscrupulous prosecutor" might seek to avoid it by entering a nolle prosequi even at that late stage;

(ii) where the case has gone badly for the prosecution and it is conceivable that it might turn out better in a subsequent trial; (

The issue is the State were always going to struggle to link SS without anything but propensity. Even the witness evidence wasnt definitive

Could the Prosecution use Nolle Prosequi ? Sure - will Hall allow them to is the question

to use this nolle prosequi, who makes the choice to apply it? is it something from the prosecution to save the charge for later, or is it initiated by the judge which suggests he believes the accused is possibly guilty, but the guilt hasn't been proven beyond reasonable doubt? what is required for nolle prosequi to happen and how is it controlled to ensure its not a backdoor to usurping double jeopardy trials? im thinking there must of been something for the charge to be allowed in the first place, such as the propensity evidence linking the three abductions. so if the propensity links the three, the accused is convicted of 2, but the third isnt proven by evidence, would that be enough to push the judge to run with nolle prosequi rather than not guilty?

 

[GreyCrow]

to use this nolle prosequi, who makes the choice to apply it? is it something from the prosecution to save the charge for later, or is it initiated by the judge which suggests he believes the accused is possibly guilty, but the guilt hasn't been proven beyond reasonable doubt?

Prosecution only

what is required for nolle prosequi to happen and how is it controlled to ensure its not a backdoor to usurping double jeopardy trials?

Valid question. Opine may have a better understanding

NP from recall is usually used when a witness may be unavailable due to medical issues , when even the defendant may be ill ie I think Ric Marshall is/was under an NP order - the charges were withdrawn but the Prosecution asked for the right to re-lay them once Marshall returned to health enough to answer the charges ie its not a get out of jail card for Marshall .

I think the pdf also mentioned - and I think this may be pertinent - that if a charge cant be sustained but may be if compelling evidence is presented ie the body and forensics of SS - the risk of course is laying the charge in the 1st place

Again it may be a tactic but its a fine line

im thinking there must of been something for the charge to be allowed in the first place, such as the propensity evidence linking the three abductions. so if the propensity links the three, the accused is convicted of 2, but the third isnt proven by evidence, would that be enough to push the judge to run with nolle prosequi rather than not guilty?

I think its Prosecution only.

Barbagallo will have to introduce NP BEFORE she starts her final submission. Once she hands over the States case to the Judge its in his hands what verdict he returns and a Not Guilty cannot then be traded to an NP one

 

[JezzaPerth]

Prosecution only

Valid question. Opine may have a better understanding

NP from recall is usually used when a witness may be unavailable due to medical issues , when even the defendant may be ill ie I think Ric Marshall is/was under an NP order - the charges were withdrawn but the Prosecution asked for the right to re-lay them once Marshall returned to health enough to answer the charges ie its not a get out of jail card for Marshall .

I think the pdf also mentioned - and I think this may be pertinent - that if a charge cant be sustained but may be if compelling evidence is presented ie the body and forensics of SS - the risk of course is laying the charge in the 1st place

Again it may be a tactic but its a fine line

I think its Prosecution only.

Barbagallo will have to introduce NP BEFORE she starts her final submission. Once she hands over the States case to the Judge its in his hands what verdict he returns and a Not Guilty cannot then be traded to an NP one

They arrested BRE for KK, Ciara Glennon and Jane Rimmer based on the evidence they had on the day. That certainly didn't include fibre evidence; it was mostly DNA and similar fact evidence. At some later stage they added SS to the charges. The SS charge will have been seriously reviewed by police and the DPP and won't have been added lightly.

The SS charge is not speculative. It was a result of the consolidation of evidence around KK, Ciara and Jane that created a compellling pattern that could be applied to the SS case.

The closing address will make this very clear (we hope)

 

[one eyed spy]

to ensure its not a backdoor to usurping double jeopardy trials? abductions. so if the propensity links the three, the accused is convicted of 2, but the third isnt proven by evidence, would that be enough to push the judge to run with nolle prosequi rather than not guilty?

This has been mentioned a few times recently & the situation on double jeopardy laws for murder and serious assault is that they've been abolished for years & they can take you back to trial on a charge if additional evidence is uncovered that would have been likey to convict you had it been available originally. So its not a problem they went for it with the slimmest chance. They havent blown it if evidence does comes up.

New appeal laws are going through WA Parliament at the moment too, to allow a similar concession for people convicted of offences who have already appealed unsuccessfully & exhausted all options to challenge their conviction & will allow a 2nd appeal if fresh evidence surfaces. And its about bloody time.

 

[BFew]

Quite a few first time every revealed facts about BRE in today's p1/4/5 WA Sunday Times.
Some of which I highlight below. Too many for a single post.

Behind bars with the accused Claremont serial killer

Xbox, 24-7 surveillance and hated by fellow inmates — what life is like for the accused Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards in prison.

thewest.com.au

or for the full article,
see https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/claremont-murders-media.1212400/page-11

The Sunday Times understands Mr Edwards is permanently housed in Casuarina’s crisis care unit and has been since the incident which almost brought undone WA’s biggest ever criminal prosecution ... It was decided Mr Edwards could not go back into the general prison population, so important was his health and safety. But it is understood authorities also didn’t want him placed in the prison’s Special Protection Unit — reserved for the few former police officers, detectives, prison officers who may require protection from the general population. So he was housed in the crisis care unit — simply because there’s nowhere else for him to go. “The approved management plan is considered to be the most appropriate at this time to ensure the prisoner’s safety and welfare and to maintain the good order of the prison,” a Department of Justice spokesman said. Ironically, despite all the eyes upon him, Mr Edwards’ day-to-day life behind bars is largely solitary and highly regimented. He showers alone, eats alone and has a completely different schedule to the rest of the prison.

During Mr Edwards’ marathon trial, his cell was set up with an Xbox and an extension cord after the crisis care unit was put into lockdown at 5.30pm. In that time — because the rest of the unit was locked down with other prisoners unable to move around — he was free to roam, get snacks from the kitchen and even stretch his legs in the unit’s garden. Once his gaming console was set up, and after his return from court, Mr Edwards was allowed four hours to play before the extension cord was removed and the lights went out.

it is understood it is not the crimes and allegations against Mr Edwards that make him unpopular with his fellow inmates — he is disliked because they feel he is treated as “Mr Special”. Inmates are disgruntled by his different routine, the fact he is kept away from the general population, and other prisoners are told to “stop everything” when he’s moved throughout the jail.

it is understood it is not the crimes and allegations against Mr Edwards that make him unpopular with his fellow inmates — he is disliked because they feel he is treated as “Mr Special”. Inmates are disgruntled by his different routine, the fact he is kept away from the general population, and other prisoners are told to “stop everything” when he’s moved throughout the jail.

the general consensus among the guards who constantly watch WA’s highest profile prisoner is that he is a polite, clean, courteous, “no-issues” inmate.

IMO, Bradley's Bacon & XBox preferential treatment is all short term benefits for him, and likely longer term pain if he remains in Casuarina.

 

[BFew]

What effect is Seven West Media publicising today, that BRE is hated by fellow inmates, likely to have on BRE and possibly the trial?

Is the front page of the online and paper media possibly being used today, to put more pressure on BRE to plead guilty, or confess, in order to receive continued and more protection in jail once he is sentenced for the at least jail-able crimes he has already pleaded guilty to?