Co-Captains. WHY?

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[unitedhawk2]

My partner and I have had a co-captains model at home for years and it’s working beautifully!

Can’t see why it wouldn’t work at Hawthorn. Hasn’t done the Lions any harm, as several posters have already pointed out…

 

[Bedi]

Still not entirely across this, but in answer to the OP's question does anyone have an answer other than why not? Not necessarily against it, but am wondering why we've gone down this route. Do we think Sicily was involved in the decision, or did come down to purely player's vote?

 

[ReturningHawk]

My answer to your question is: because Sam Mitchell has ticked it off as something that will help the club. This coach has steered us from North levels of irrelevance to flag contention in a timeframe that is barely believable. I can recall back in 2022 reading a poster saying we could win the flag by 2025, and I thought they were deluded. We were is such a deeply unenviable position of a club divided by the racism saga, rifts at board level and a playing list that was paying the price for years of de-prioritising the draft and development. Yet Sam has consistently made bold moves with staff and player recruitment, created club stability, squeezed every drop of performance out of the playing group and inside 3 years has built the fanbase to record levels with the team primed for a third crack at a deep finals run.

At this point, if you're questioning Sam's instincts for leadership, I just don't see how that's possible.

 

[Changa10]

Well, we should never lose another coin toss when we are calling. Sic can calls heads and Newc can call tails

 

[killerspud]

I love it.

Team first decision that gives us more leadership on the ground and spreads the load off it.

Even when there is one captain there's usually someone else doing some of the heavy lifting. Judd was captain of the eagles 2006 flag but Cousins was just as much a leader on the field (these guys get tags like spiritual leader)

Jai is awesome and will be awesome in the role..Sicily hasnt been a bad captain but I feel this will help his game.

There are some people here stuck in the past. If you dont move with the times you get left behind

 

[Yardie]

My answer to your question is: because Sam Mitchell has ticked it off as something that will help the club. This coach has steered us from North levels of irrelevance to flag contention in a timeframe that is barely believable. I can recall back in 2022 reading a poster saying we could win the flag by 2025, and I thought they were deluded. We were is such a deeply unenviable position of a club divided by the racism saga, rifts at board level and a playing list that was paying the price for years of de-prioritising the draft and development. Yet Sam has consistently made bold moves with staff and player recruitment, created club stability, squeezed every drop of performance out of the playing group and inside 3 years has built the fanbase to record levels with the team primed for a third crack at a deep finals run.

At this point, if you're questioning Sam's instincts for leadership, I just don't see how that's possible.

We went down this path with Clarkson of drinking the bathwater (me included) and that ended in a mess. When we blindly follow people it becomes messy as we continue to try to justify their actions when we, deep down, know they are wrong.

I'm not saying the decision is wrong in this instance, just that I personally don't agree with it and have voiced my opinion. Which I'm sure the club isn't losing any sleep over.

But I'm not going to genuflect at the altar of Sam, and I'd expect that he wouldn't want me to either.

 

[killerspud]

We went down this path with Clarkson of drinking the bathwater (me included) and that ended in a mess. When we blindly follow people it becomes messy as we continue to try to justify their actions when we, deep down, know they are wrong.

I'm not saying the decision is wrong in this instance, just that I personally don't agree with it and have voiced my opinion. Which I'm sure the club isn't losing any sleep over.

But I'm not going to genuflect at the altar of Sam, and I'd expect that he wouldn't want me to either.

Difference is at the end Clarko was taking his own advice.

Sam is a modern leader spending time learning and researching the best ways of doing things. Sam pushes outside his personal comfort zone to embrace better ways of doing things.

I need to hear solid arguments about why 2 captains are bad and examples of how it doesn't work. As of now it seems to be the successful model

 

[Cleavy]

Still not entirely across this, but in answer to the OP's question does anyone have an answer other than why not? Not necessarily against it, but am wondering why we've gone down this route. Do we think Sicily was involved in the decision, or did come down to purely player's vote?

the way I see is that Siciliy is there because he's the man everyone looks up to/respects, but Nuke is there because he can be the direct spark to influence games.

 

[Coathanger]

Very disappointed with this.
Cocrap is for weak clubs who don’t have a strong standout choice.
The because someone else is doing it, is just 8yo’s thinking.
Unfortunately the very obvious next captain can’t stay on the park for more than
a quarter of the season.

 

[stevehawkington]

I like leadership from someone in the middle rather than one end of the ground regardless of two captains or Captain or Vice Captain. Never a fan of Stratton or Sic as Captain.
Newc can influence a game directly or reinforce things at key time in the ‘guts’
Maybe we go to Newc alone in 2027?

We're gonna be rolling thru new players in the mid rotation in 26. Having newk there making the calls on who we need and when in game is gonna be important for the season.

We've been lacking leadership in the guts this is a possible solution to it

 

[Leather Poisoning]

It's been a hell of a long time since I've been on the inside of a footy club - so I don't think I'm informed enough on what a good captaincy structure looks like. I don't know what the leadership workload is that needs to be spread around.

So I'm gonna refrain from having a strong opinion.

With Sicily as captain I never once thought "geez we should really get a co-captain here, something is missing".

But also - need to remember Mitchell's lived experience as captain and then stepping aside for Luke Hodge to be captain - maybe he thinks that transition could have been done better?

 

[Slainte]

Still not entirely across this, but in answer to the OP's question does anyone have an answer other than why not? Not necessarily against it, but am wondering why we've gone down this route. Do we think Sicily was involved in the decision, or did come down to purely player's vote?

If you scroll through this thread, you will see that posters have put up plenty of reasons, other than "why not". In summary they are:

1. To ease the burden (especially off-field), reducing distractions from game preparation.
2. Different people bring different leadership qualities and can each add value.
3. There is something to be said for having an on-ball player in a leadership role.
4. Co-captaincy is a good approach to succession planning - Sicily is in the last phase of his career whereas Newcombe is barely mid-career.
5. Brisbane has shown it does not impede on-field performance.

 

[ReturningHawk]

We went down this path with Clarkson of drinking the bathwater (me included) and that ended in a mess. When we blindly follow people it becomes messy as we continue to try to justify their actions when we, deep down, know they are wrong.

I'm not saying the decision is wrong in this instance, just that I personally don't agree with it and have voiced my opinion. Which I'm sure the club isn't losing any sleep over.

But I'm not going to genuflect at the altar of Sam, and I'd expect that he wouldn't want me to either.

It’s not about worshipping him, it’s about trusting in his instincts about the leadership of the club which haven’t been wrong yet. Why your first reaction is to think it will screw up our messaging is beyond me. Have the maturity to see past your own tastes and imagine that it could be a raging success, because it probably will be.

 

[Nugett]

I’m not a fan of co-captains.

There is an old saying that too many chefs spoil the broth.

The captain is the one that sets the standards. They are the public face.

They stand out because of their individual attributes. There is a reason why other sports only have 1 captain. Why business organisations have 1 leader to lead a team. It’s to set the team up to the same standard that is being set.

By having 2 captains, even if they both share the same end goal, you are relying on 2 individuals with different beliefs, perspectives and personalities that will convey different messages from time to time.

Hoping this only going to be short term experiment.

 

[ReturningHawk]

The captain is the one that sets the standards. They are the public face.

They stand out because of their individual attributes. There is a reason why other sports only have 1 captain. Why business organisations have 1 leader to lead a team. It’s to set the team up to the same standard that is being set.

By having 2 captains, even if they both share the same end goal, you are relying on 2 individuals with different beliefs, perspectives and personalities that will convey different messages from time to time.

Hoping this only going to be short term experiment.

It would all feel more compelling if the reigning back-to-back premiers didn't have two captains.

Get behind our leaders!

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

I said I don't care for co captains, but I honestly dont mind, a leader is a leader.

Cricket is the only sport where the skipper has a direct and defined influence on the match.

 

[Bumpswithagrin]

If you scroll through this thread, you will see that posters have put up plenty of reasons, other than "why not". In summary they are:

1. To ease the burden (especially off-field), reducing distractions from game preparation.
2. Different people bring different leadership qualities and can each add value.
3. There is something to be said for having an on-ball player in a leadership role.
4. Co-captaincy is a good approach to succession planning - Sicily is in the last phase of his career whereas Newcombe is barely mid-career.
5. Brisbane has shown it does not impede on-field performance.

Points 1 to 4 can be covered adequately by having a vice captain (or even two) and a leadership group (which we already have). The captain by definition is one person.

Point 5, Brisbane have achieved success despite their co-captains not because of them. Don't forget the other teams that have co-captains that are not doing well.

 

[peetoo]

It's been a hell of a long time since I've been on the inside of a footy club - so I don't think I'm informed enough on what a good captaincy structure looks like. I don't know what the leadership workload is that needs to be spread around.

So I'm gonna refrain from having a strong opinion.

With Sicily as captain I never once thought "geez we should really get a co-captain here, something is missing".

But also - need to remember Mitchell's lived experience as captain and then stepping aside for Luke Hodge to be captain - maybe he thinks that transition could have been done better?

I think Sam is on record as saying the arrangement helped with his challenging family health issues at the time

 

[Yardie]

It’s not about worshipping him, it’s about trusting in his instincts about the leadership of the club which haven’t been wrong yet. Why your first reaction is to think it will screw up our messaging is beyond me. Have the maturity to see past your own tastes and imagine that it could be a raging success, because it probably will be.

Why the personal attack about maturity? Not sure what as this discussion has to do about opinion.

I've stated my piece and based on my own experiences, mostly in private industry, do not necessarily agree with the approach. Why do I need to "imagine" it will be a raging success do you want me to "manifest" the outcome?

It's ok to agree to disagree.

 

[Yardie]

Difference is at the end Clarko was taking his own advice.

Sam is a modern leader spending time learning and researching the best ways of doing things. Sam pushes outside his personal comfort zone to embrace better ways of doing things.

I need to hear solid arguments about why 2 captains are bad and examples of how it doesn't work. As of now it seems to be the successful model

Clarko started out this way as well. All I'm saying is that I won't be doing the "In Clarko we trust" line for Sam.

 

[unitedhawk2]

Clarko started out this way as well. All I'm saying is that I won't be doing the "In Clarko we trust" line for Sam.

After Sam has won a flag or three, perhaps?

 

[Slainte]

Clarko started out this way as well. All I'm saying is that I won't be doing the "In Clarko we trust" line for Sam.

Every coach has his use by date. The problem is that no-one knows when it is. Some are written off prematurely and some stay on too long. I reckon Sam has at least another five years in him at Hawthorn but he could be one of those who has genuine longevity.

 

[kazzooka]

Ok, so lets just pretend Sicily is still 20 years old like he is in the video evidence you've chosen to bring to the table to declare he could be stupid enough to start an argument with a co-captain in front of the team before the ball is bounced.

(I'm going to just ignore a preseason scrap in a match sim, as its something we see multiple times every summer.)

Are you silly enough to think that despite all the emotional intelligence training, mental development and team building exercises the players step through, that he'd still decide to throw shade at Newcombe in front of the playing group?

Sicily has had his issues when the game is on the line, in the heat of the battle. The idea that he would disrespect or berate a co-captain is quite ridiculous.

Relax, it's just said in jest don't take it too seriously.

I never said he'd disrespect or berate a co-captain, just that he'd tell them not to say stupid shit to the playing group. As many later said to, and mocked Hodge for after 2013 grand final. It's a hypothetical scenario where 2 captains can have conflict, it could be any players.

 

[unitedhawk2]

Must say I've been surprised at the strength of some of the views from both the Why and Why Not camps.

I'm in the not-really-bothered-either-way camp and the only argument I really disagree with is the we-haven't-done-it-before-so-why-do-it-now one, which I think is too conservative. Change is more often good than bad and if Sam reckons this change will be beneficial for the team, I'm more than happy to back his judgement.

In the end, AFL captaincy is more of an off-field leadership role. During games, we will have leaders on each line. As Mr Meeseeks alluded to, Cricket is really the only sport in which the (fielding) captain is at the centre of tactical on-field decision-making on a continuous basis.

More power to Sic and Nuke and may they become the first co-captains in Hawthorn's history to lift the Premiership Cup...

 

[GOHORCS]

Left field, but how often do you drop an e?

Before an 'I' but not after 'c' and when it is a French translation.