Collingwood List Management Thread

[blaze036]

why don't you think they'll make it?

Can I answer that with why do you think they WILL make it?

pick 75 and 76 who have been okay in the vfl/injury prone, nothing special or any better than the 80% of VFL players who will never make afl. Neither are close to getting a game when were close to full strength currently, and our next batch of draftees are just going to continue pushing them further down the pecking order.

It's likely our 1st and 2nd round pick will get games ahead of them next year and if that happens they really got no chance with mooney witts rounds dick n.brown keefe buckley goldsack caffer mcarthy all fringe players well ahead of them. So next year that puts them in the middle 30's as far as preference goes on our list, and their not getting younger. Add in our players from the superdraft... you see where im going.

Sorry to be so negative, only seen hype on bigfooty around these guys. I admit ive been swept away by Witts mania, but us collingwood fans being getting ahead of ourself with the young players on our list, there not gonna turn into the pendleburys and thomas's we've had before.

 

[blaze036]

I wouldn't mind knowing your thought process behind this as well? Because from all reports they have shown AFL attributes while playing at a competitive level in the VFL. Fasolo was doing the exact same thing as these two before he earned the call up. Within 6 weeks he'd kicked 5 goals in a match and eventually received a rising star nom.

When you look at the stats Fasolo far out performed the both of them in the games they played together, also fasolo is younger and theres a spot in the team for him. Those two arnt gonna break into our midfield, particulary if we pick up 1-2 great young midfielders in the next 2 drafts. Sorry to be a wet blanket haha.

So how good is witts

 

[PieBeast]

Bertstare.jpeg

 

[sr36]

So your belief is based on where they were selected and the fact that they haven't debuted yet, rather than the attributes that they have shown or not shown. Under the same theory 200 gamers like Johnson and Swan would also have been written off, so too would the likes of Harry, Toovey and our captain.

Having said that, I remember in 2003 the Collingwood faithful were elated due to the fact that we were contenders who had young sure things in the team like Cole and a reserves team that boasted some future certainties like Guy Richards and David King.

 

[blaze036]

So your belief is based on where they were selected and the fact that they haven't debuted yet, rather than the attributes that they have shown or not shown. Under the same theory 200 gamers like Johnson and Swan would also have been written off, so too would the likes of Harry, Toovey and our captain.

Having said that, I remember in 2003 the Collingwood faithful were elated due to the fact that we were contenders who had young sure things in the team like Cole and a reserves team that boasted some future certainties like Guy Richards and David King.

Well yes you could wait on them for a few years and hopefully they develop into good players, you can wait on any young player and hopefully they turn good. Your saying we need to keep every young player with good attributes? Just saying with our young sensational midfield they look unlikely to ever break in, and in the next 2 drafts more young midfielders could pass them in the pecking order.

Suprised not a single person agrees with me lol

With a chance of getting O'meara / a great 17 year old this year, plus the superdraft comming up... Two young very good midfielders from those and makes it impossible for thomas/seedsmen to break into the team (unless they do the unlikely and dramatically improve next year, which hopefully they do, but probably wont).

 

[the distributer]

Can I answer that with why do you think they WILL make it?

pick 75 and 76 who have been okay in the vfl/injury prone, nothing special or any better than the 80% of VFL players who will never make afl. Neither are close to getting a game when were close to full strength currently, and our next batch of draftees are just going to continue pushing them further down the pecking order.

It's likely our 1st and 2nd round pick will get games ahead of them next year and if that happens they really got no chance with mooney witts rounds dick n.brown keefe buckley goldsack caffer mcarthy all fringe players well ahead of them. So next year that puts them in the middle 30's as far as preference goes on our list, and their not getting younger. Add in our players from the superdraft... you see where im going.

Sorry to be so negative, only seen hype on bigfooty around these guys. I admit ive been swept away by Witts mania, but us collingwood fans being getting ahead of ourself with the young players on our list, there not gonna turn into the pendleburys and thomas's we've had before.

Yep, agree, Blight was nicks and BFs new wonder boy and 12 mnths later he was delisted, if you aren't smashing the door down for selection in your second year it's bye bye time.

 

[Scodog10]

When you look at the stats Fasolo far out performed the both of them in the games they played together, also fasolo is younger and theres a spot in the team for him. Those two arnt gonna break into our midfield, particulary if we pick up 1-2 great young midfielders in the next 2 drafts. Sorry to be a wet blanket haha.

So how good is witts

What bearing do stats have on a player having AFL attributes? Do stats indicate whether Thomas is strong at reading the ball from a ruckman's hands, that he knows how to shift his opponent off the ball in a contested situation, that both know how to find time and space to deliver when in traffic (Seedsman more in the Pendles/ Dal santo time stands still mould and Thomas the hussle and bussle mould), that Seedsman is adept at creating space but sometimes isn't utilized or that he's suited to our structure?..

Judging a players performance on stats alone (as you seemed to have based most of if not all your opinion on) is the height of folly and doesn't hold much weight when it comes to determining whether a player will make it or not.

As it is Fasolo never played alongside J Thomas because Thomas only returned on July 5 (against Box Hill) and in that time Fasolo was never dropped from the seniors. Fasolo's only younger than Thomas by 8 months which is hardly what I'd call a deciding factor.

Finally Seedsman started the season at a lowly 72 kg which is around 15kg off his ideal playing weight (Pendles is 2 cm taller and 19kg heavier ). For him to finish off the season so strongly coming from such a low base is a solid sign for the future IMO. Neither have done enough to be put up in lights, but have shown positive signs none the less.

 

[Knightmare]

Not all players are great in their 1st or 2nd seasons.

Look at Dane Swan. Took a hell of a long time for him to mature both as a player and person and look at him now.
Toovey same. But the key is that consistant and strong development which I'm seeing in both J.Thomas and Seedsman which gives the pair the potential to develop into best 22 players.

Re. J.Thomas + Seedsman.

J.Thomas has been incredibly impressive since returning from injury. Should have received a game over the likes of Rounds and Sinclair late season for mine even though different position/role. Get him a full preseason into him - will put on more muscle and build up that endurance base and he can be a seriously good player with his inside ball winning ability and ability to read the ball. Is essentially a mini Luke Ball for mine.
Not going to peg him as a cert best 22 player in 2012. Same with Seedsman. But if they aren't, I think they'll both be very close and more than hold their own at the next level.

Seedsman has improved significantly throughout the year and has been super consistant. Still skinny so won't be an immediate player, but the talent is there. Really nice ball user, tackles strongly even though he is still very slight and is almost Pendlebury-eskue (think early career Pendlebury the outside player). Obviously not the same level talent. But there is allot to like.

 

[TradeDraft]

Not all players are great in their 1st or 2nd seasons.

Look at Dane Swan. Took a hell of a long time for him to mature both as a player and person and look at him now.
Toovey same. But the key is that consistant and strong development which I'm seeing in both J.Thomas and Seedsman which gives the pair the potential to develop into best 22 players.

Very True but if you don't preform after the 1st 2-3 Season why would they keep you as they seem not to hang on to those types anymore

J.Thomas has been incredibly impressive since returning from injury. Should have received a game over the likes of Rounds and Sinclair late season for mine even though different position/role. Get him a full preseason into him - will put on more muscle and build up that endurance base and he can be a seriously good player with his inside ball winning ability and ability to read the ball. Is essentially a mini Luke Ball for mine.
Not going to peg him as a cert best 22 player in 2012. Same with Seedsman. But if they aren't, I think they'll both be very close and more than hold their own at the next level.

Josh Thomas biggest Problem has been he can't stay Fit and always seems to be Injured by Start of the Season. IF he can stay Injury Free I reckon he make an AFL Debut rather Quickly

Seedsman has improved significantly throughout the year and has been super consistant. Still skinny so won't be an immediate player, but the talent is there. Really nice ball user, tackles strongly even though he is still very slight and is almost Pendlebury-eskue (think early career Pendlebury the outside player). Obviously not the same level talent. But there is allot to like.

He also showed good Desperation in a few Goal Saving Tackles during the Season

 

[Dundalis]

Well yes you could wait on them for a few years and hopefully they develop into good players, you can wait on any young player and hopefully they turn good. Your saying we need to keep every young player with good attributes? Just saying with our young sensational midfield they look unlikely to ever break in, and in the next 2 drafts more young midfielders could pass them in the pecking order.

Suprised not a single person agrees with me lol

With a chance of getting O'meara / a great 17 year old this year, plus the superdraft comming up... Two young very good midfielders from those and makes it impossible for thomas/seedsmen to break into the team (unless they do the unlikely and dramatically improve next year, which hopefully they do, but probably wont).

Thomas is our only natural replacement for Luke Ball. We don't have another player on our list I don't think that is as naturally inside as him.

That as far as I'm concerned keeps him on the list, besides the fact he's pretty talented, and has pace. A Nathan Foley type which is seemingly what he is would be a pretty good compliment to our midfield group.

You are assuming we get a player like O'Meara. The likelihood is we pick somewhere in the 20's with our first, so who says we are going to get far superior talent? Not every pick we make turns to gold. We would be stupid to get rid of quality young players in anticipation of picking up better ones, when that might not actually happen.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Thomas is our only natural replacement for Luke Ball. We don't have another player on our list I don't think that is as naturally inside as him.

Beams and Blair are natural inside midfielders which are waaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of Josh Thomas to replace Luke Ball.

 

[blaze036]

people keep saying these two have good attributes, yes so does every player!
The fact is theres not a spot for them in the team, and theres no point waiting when we could quiet easily get a younger player whos much better in the next few drafts. They'll both seriouslly struggle to get a game next year, if we have no injuries i doubt they will. They've very much overrated imo, yes there worth keeping for 1 year seeing we have other people to delist, but there not part of the future imo.

 

[JOELY]

 

[bucksisbest]

Wow. I gather there has been no first hand knowledge garnered.

 

[Knightmare]

Thomas is our only natural replacement for Luke Ball. We don't have another player on our list I don't think that is as naturally inside as him.

That as far as I'm concerned keeps him on the list, besides the fact he's pretty talented, and has pace. A Nathan Foley type which is seemingly what he is would be a pretty good compliment to our midfield group.

Agree with this.

Think he's been pretty unlucky not to receive any games and don't see why he wouldn't be able to hold his spot if given the chance at some stage next year.

Very keen to see how much he can progress over the offseason because he is good enough to make the grade.

Josh Thomas biggest Problem has been he can't stay Fit and always seems to be Injured by Start of the Season. IF he can stay Injury Free I reckon he make an AFL Debut rather Quickly

Was he injured at all in 2010? Obviously this year has missed the first half and a bit of the season.

Not sure injury will be a career problem for him. Should with a bit of luck be right to go for a big preseason.

people keep saying these two have good attributes, yes so does every player!
The fact is theres not a spot for them in the team, and theres no point waiting when we could quiet easily get a younger player whos much better in the next few drafts. They'll both seriouslly struggle to get a game next year, if we have no injuries i doubt they will. They've very much overrated imo, yes there worth keeping for 1 year seeing we have other people to delist, but there not part of the future imo.

There are always spots. Spots open up through injury, retirement or by one player going past another player.

Don't think Seedsman or J.Thomas are rated yet. Haven't played any senior footy yet. Players in this situation only tend to be rated if they were taken with a high draft pick.

There is very much a chance that one or both are part of our future, even if it isn't obvious yet.

VERY short sighted only rating a player based on season 1 production. Much more important is giving these kids 2-3 years and consistantly assessing whether they are developing or not.

 

[Old Spice]

The more I think about our salary cap and our surfeit of shadow players the more I think we need to get ruthless with our selection policy.

I'm a wrap for squeezing 1/2 players and our 1st pick for a gun draftee.

 

[smiddaz123]

Why not I say. Not an established player. Still a rookie after 2 years. Very possible to trade into him if we throw the right pieces at NM, but I can understand the view that likely he wants to stay at NM.
Certainly wouldn't overlook it.

He's a cult figure at North Melbourne. The club wants the media exposure of his fairy tale story to the AFL to be theirs, and not another club's.

Secondly, there is zero way Majak will be convinced he has a better chance of cracking Collingwood's best 22 as opposed to North's best 22.

North have treated Majak well, he likes the club, they like him. He has more of a chance to play for them consistently than Collingwood. It's a no brainer, we'd have to pay well above market odds for him.

 

[Ed D]

Was he injured at all in 2010? Obviously this year has missed the first half and a bit of the season.

Not sure injury will be a career problem for him. Should with a bit of luck be right to go for a big preseason.

According to the Pies website he started 2010 with calf problems:

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/pla.../senior/season/2011/selected/bio/default.aspx

Anyway, no way I'd want him traded or delisted, he has the potential to be a good player for us. If he struggles again next season you'd have to look into it.

 

[Knightmare]

He's a cult figure at North Melbourne. The club wants the media exposure of his fairy tale story to the AFL to be theirs, and not another club's.

Secondly, there is zero way Majak will be convinced he has a better chance of cracking Collingwood's best 22 as opposed to North's best 22.

North have treated Majak well, he likes the club, they like him. He has more of a chance to play for them consistently than Collingwood. It's a no brainer, we'd have to pay well above market odds for him.

Not wrong on any front.

Think he can be a best 22 player from season 1 now that L.Brown is gone - better role replacement than anyone else we have for mine even if it could be argued that L.Keeffe is the better player.

Would be willing to pay above market value. Confident he will develop - which you would need to be to do something like this.

 

[Zahki]

We've already had our shot at Daw, could've picked him up if the club wanted, they passed. No point paying overs for him now.

 

[Dundalis]

Beams and Blair are natural inside midfielders which are waaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of Josh Thomas to replace Luke Ball.

Neither Blair or Beams are pure inside mids. They will both spend as much time on the outside looking to recieve as they will inside getting the ball, especially Beams with his skill level. Blair is possibly more purely inside, but he is and always will be a fringe player at the club. Thomas seemingly has the potential to be more than that.

people keep saying these two have good attributes, yes so does every player!
The fact is theres not a spot for them in the team, and theres no point waiting when we could quiet easily get a younger player whos much better in the next few drafts. They'll both seriouslly struggle to get a game next year, if we have no injuries i doubt they will. They've very much overrated imo, yes there worth keeping for 1 year seeing we have other people to delist, but there not part of the future imo.

What an ignorant comment. Not every player has the attributes to be AFL players. We have numerous players running around in the VFL at the moment who's upside equals career VFL players. Neither Seedsman or Thomas fit that profile.

 

[blaze036]

What an ignorant comment. Not every player has the attributes to be AFL players. We have numerous players running around in the VFL at the moment who's upside equals career VFL players. Neither Seedsman or Thomas fit that profile.

Im sorry but what part of my comment was ignorant, do you understand what the word means? I assume it was the part when i said every player has good attributes? Calling that ignorant doesnt make sense at all, how very ignorant of u

Yea they could develop into okay afl players, they'll deffinitely struggle for any selection next year however worth keeping on our list.

Both are currently around 35-36th prefered player to get a game in their 2nd year at the club, seedsmen has done some good things in the vfl and some bad things, overall been okay. Thomas injury prone, came back and been good.

Next year lets say (hypothetically) we get 2 great players(plus dick/brown), but lose 4 (eg davis johnson brown wellingham) and all our players continue to develop. This puts them next year still well above the 30th man in preferred to get a game. Thomas is too injury prone and at his best is good but not amazing, and seedsmen is going to take too long to develop and hasnt shown enough to get realistcally excited about.

Get on the Witts/Mooney/fasolo Bandwagon as these guys could be genuine stars, Seedsmen and j.Thomas been very overrated here and imo arnt gonna make it.

Edit* Happy to be proved wrong next year !

 

[Knightmare]

Think Seedsman could prove you wrong. Possibly as soon as next year.

But let's keep this thread on track shall we..

 

[Bay Pie]

Ben Johnson has said he wants to go around again next year.

It's a club decision now. I think he'll get another year.

Leroy only confirmed out. Definitely only select 3 players for the senior list this year and one may well be Witts.

Still need to cut/trade at least 2.

I think JMac may be off loaded for more opportunities elsewhere.

 

[Daicos Mullets]

Im sorry but what part of my comment was ignorant, do you understand what the word means? I assume it was the part when i said every player has good attributes? Calling that ignorant doesnt make sense at all, how very ignorant of u

Yea they could develop into okay afl players, they'll deffinitely struggle for any selection next year however worth keeping on our list.

Both are currently around 35-36th prefered player to get a game in their 2nd year at the club, seedsmen has done some good things in the vfl and some bad things, overall been okay. Thomas injury prone, came back and been good.

Next year lets say (hypothetically) we get 2 great players(plus dick/brown), but lose 4 (eg davis johnson brown wellingham) and all our players continue to develop. This puts them next year still well above the 30th man in preferred to get a game. Thomas is too injury prone and at his best is good but not amazing, and seedsmen is going to take too long to develop and hasnt shown enough to get realistcally excited about.

Get on the Witts/Mooney/fasolo Bandwagon as these guys could be genuine stars, Seedsmen and j.Thomas been very overrated here and imo arnt gonna make it.

Edit* Happy to be proved wrong next year !

Seedsman is a first year player, who was named as an emergency for the seniors on at least one occasion this year. I can't see how you're drawing the conclusion that he's going to take too long to develop and that he hasn't shown enough to get excited about. In the VFL games I went to and watched on the TV this year, he is one that stood out for me. I would think that the club would be very happy with his development in his first year. Whether or not he makes it as an AFL player, only time will tell. However, for you to write him off after only one season seems far too early.

I would think that the biggest thing that will count against Josh Thomas is that he's been quite injury prone so far. I expect that he'll be on the list next year, but that he would need to start playing senior footy to be there any longer than that. The club seems to rate him fairly highly, so that would appear to be in his favour.