Collingwood's appalling Grand Final record

[Swooop]

Poignant picture that one...hadn't seen it before.

Not sure if others agree/disagree, but IMO we didn't have the same hunger in 2011 as 2010.

Hopefully, that can be reversed next year, as that seems the number one key ingredient, though injuries are right up there too.

 

[Nebula1971]

I posted this a year ago or so...

The Crowd and the effect on the players. How
pivotal can it be?

I was fortunate to witness both Grand Finals this year. During GF2, late in the 3rd when it looked like the Pies would win, it got me thinking a little.

In the first final, I noticed the crowd was predominantly St. Kilda and opposition supporters who were barracking for them. Every non Collingwood supporter around me, was barracking for the Saints. It appeared that there was probably 55% to 45% Magpies overall. This is merely an estimation. However, the pendulum had swung well and truly in Collingwood's favour during the second final as the crowd was able to dwarf any noise the St. Kilda crowd tried to generate. I observed that the players seemed to respond to the crowd.

My point is, how important do you think the crowd support is in assisting a team get through in a massive game? As we are aware, it is generally the Pies vs the rest. Trolling aside, could this explain why the Pies have dropped so many GF's they should have won? The hate towards the Pies would have probably been greater in the 50's to the 90's. Especially when they were well ahead in the premiership tally. I can only assume that many opposition fans would have been against Collingwood much like the first GF this year.

Secondly, can this also be the reason Collingwood has been so successful in getting to the big dance so often? We know they have a massive following and consequently could have been the impetus behind the number of finals they had progressed to.

Is there a correlation in your opinion?

Obviously there are many other variables that come into play, but do you believe the crowd is a huge factor?

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Wouldnt mind giving an impartial view of the 1970 Grand Final -because i went to the game as a kid.Back then believe it or not The Sun newspaper would have a coupon around April May (when makeup of final four 4 was unknown) -so you could post the coupon in with your cheque(had to buy the whole series) which my father did and if yours was accepted they would post you your final tickets -

My view was both those Collingwood and Carlton sides had alot of superstars and the 2nd semi final which i still rate as probably one of the best 5 games ive ever been to-high scoring excitement plus proved there wasnt much between the 2 sides .

As to the grand final -i would totally disagree that it was a choke on the part of Collingwood . When your a kid its amazing how you remember stuff . The 1st half was a total massacre -total domination -i can remember Jenkin taking 2 big one grab overhead marks right in front of where we were sitting -jeez they were strong marks -but where Collingwood lost the game was inaccurate kicking -put simply the game should have been over at half time -the lead should have been around 12 goals . It was a very similar game to the North Melbourne Adelaide GF -And if you dont bury an opponent -when you can and should your looking for trouble

One final point i would make is that talent and ability wise i would rate your 1970 GF Side about a 15 goal better side than your 1990 Premiership side

 

[76woodenspooners]

Thanks for the post Goggin.

Must have been awesome being at that 1970 Grand Final - biggest crowd ever at an AFL game by a long way. The images of kids sitting between the fence and the boundary line is incredible.

 

[JonoNash]

What is forgotten universally about 70' is that shortly after h/t, McKenna who had kicked 6 goals to that point & had kicked 9 in his last final, ran into Des Tuddenham, the captain. It changed the course of the game.

McKenna to Carlton was like Buddy Franklin was to us now, when on song, they simply couldn't stop him. He kicked 8, 9 & 8 goals against them in the previous 3 games in 1970, Southby couldn't even compete with him.

 

[Visions]

Could be worse. We could be 1 win from 8 grand final appearances like St Kilda.

I will take the 15 wins from 40 odd appearances any day.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Pressure of playing in a Grand Final for Collingwood.

Weight of expectation that comes from being the most supported club in the country.

 

[Swooop]

I posted this a year ago or so...

The Crowd and the effect on the players. How
pivotal can it be?

I was fortunate to witness both Grand Finals this year. During GF2, late in the 3rd when it looked like the Pies would win, it got me thinking a little.

In the first final, I noticed the crowd was predominantly St. Kilda and opposition supporters who were barracking for them. Every non Collingwood supporter around me, was barracking for the Saints. It appeared that there was probably 55% to 45% Magpies overall. This is merely an estimation. However, the pendulum had swung well and truly in Collingwood's favour during the second final as the crowd was able to dwarf any noise the St. Kilda crowd tried to generate. I observed that the players seemed to respond to the crowd.

My point is, how important do you think the crowd support is in assisting a team get through in a massive game? As we are aware, it is generally the Pies vs the rest. Trolling aside, could this explain why the Pies have dropped so many GF's they should have won? The hate towards the Pies would have probably been greater in the 50's to the 90's. Especially when they were well ahead in the premiership tally. I can only assume that many opposition fans would have been against Collingwood much like the first GF this year.

Secondly, can this also be the reason Collingwood has been so successful in getting to the big dance so often? We know they have a massive following and consequently could have been the impetus behind the number of finals they had progressed to.

Is there a correlation in your opinion?

Obviously there are many other variables that come into play, but do you believe the crowd is a huge factor?

Hard to disagree with a single word of that.
Most neutrals will generally side with the opposition.

The GF crowds thesedays are predominantly neutrals, the way the ticketing goes ( though not sure historically how long that has been the case ... maybe in the old days, it was first in best dressed)

It is generally agreed crowd support lifts players, also perhaps even influences the odd umpiring decision here and there.

Not saying it's the biggest factor overall, but I don't think anyone could say it wasn't any sort of factor at all.

 

[vjknight]

opinions are divided, as expected, as to which GF losses were acceptable considering the quality of the opposition, and which were frustrating because other issues affected the result.

2011 - multiple 'minor' issues all created a team regretably not ready. playing one of the best and most attractive teams in recent history did help heal the wounds of this loss.

2002 & 03 - i dont believe we were good enough. up against a team with many quality individuals, and the added cap to ensure their success.
collingwood took one (or two) for the better of the game overall

1981 - as stated in the 'heartbreaking' thread, this GF was lost 4 weeks before by losing round 22 and throwing away top spot, thereby missing the very much needed week off. we werent the most talented team, but were easily the hardest working. as ive said this is the one that will always hurt me.

1980 - richmond clicked that year. we were the ones who got to be their victim.

1979 - where do we go with this one ? facing a team heavily boosted by their zoning advantage, and our work ethic nearly got us there. as stated earlier, add bernie quinlan and we are certainties for this and 81.

1977 and before. i was a little too young to appreciate what was going on. opinions are formed thru others words.

 

[McOrist]

Thanks for the post Goggin.

Must have been awesome being at that 1970 Grand Final - biggest crowd ever at an AFL game by a long way. The images of kids sitting between the fence and the boundary line is incredible.

I was there at the '70 Grand Final as a 12 year old. The record crowd was due to the number of people wedged into standing room. There weren't any kids between the fence and the boundary line (they would have drowned beneath the floggers and the mountain of cut-up telephone books!). I've seen those images you referred to -I think they were from around 1949-1950

 

[McOrist]

What is forgotten universally about 70' is that shortly after h/t, McKenna who had kicked 6 goals to that point & had kicked 9 in his last final, ran into Des Tuddenham, the captain. It changed the course of the game.

McKenna to Carlton was like Buddy Franklin was to us now, when on song, they simply couldn't stop him. He kicked 8, 9 & 8 goals against them in the previous 3 games in 1970, Southby couldn't even compete with him.

-it's not "forgotten universally"
-it happened just before half time
-Southby didn't join Carlton until 1971 (try Kevin Hall)

 

[Markfs]

What is forgotten universally about 70' is that shortly after h/t, McKenna who had kicked 6 goals to that point & had kicked 9 in his last final, ran into Des Tuddenham, the captain. It changed the course of the game.

McKenna to Carlton was like Buddy Franklin was to us now, when on song, they simply couldn't stop him. He kicked 8, 9 & 8 goals against them in the previous 3 games in 1970, Southby couldn't even compete with him.

I read this and had to post something. Peter McKenna was a fine kick of the ball. He was probably the best drop punt of all time. He used to kick them from the member's side of Vic Park, kicking towards the city end. For those that can remember, that's on the wrong side for a right footer...and he used to be 50 metres out. He knew the gentle breezes like a yachtie on port phillip bay. His technique was perfect...

but as a footballer, he was very very limited. He would take an overhead mark once or twice a season, but he was a brilliant lead..... probably as good as Dunstall....and he had a midfield in the Richardson bros, Price, Tully etc who were excellent kicks of the ball and knew how to drop the ball on his chest.

His relationship with his midfield has very little to do with Buddy's relationship to his midfield.

The problem with the midfield focussing all year on McKenna, it was almost impossible to do the same under the pressure of finals footy.

I just read the wiki article about Pete... he ended up driving government cars in 2004. He did kick 6 in the 1970 grand final and 9 the game before to get us in the GF. I can't blame the guy for us losing the thing... He did his best but we would take enormous risks kicking the ball from centre clearances to try to hit Pete on the chest as he ran towards the boundard line...I just remember thinking as a kid that it was such a waste. If youre reading this, sorry Pete..

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Peter McKenna was so accurate that one day at Victoria Park, he had a set shot deep in the pocket on an angle so fine he couldt see daylight.

The ball got stuck between the goalposts.

 

[jonbe54]

As others have said our setup with Macca was one of the reasons we were beaten in finals series - its just too easy to either blanket the 'gun' forward or swamp the ball carrier trying to be super accurate with their delivery. Our current setup with two towers and an all singing, all dancing cast of half forwad/winger/center drifting goalkickers is basically unstoppable with a match fit team.

 

[ipswichpies]

As others have said our setup with Macca was one of the reasons we were beaten in finals series - its just too easy to either blanket the 'gun' forward or swamp the ball carrier trying to be super accurate with their delivery. Our current setup with two towers and an all singing, all dancing cast of half forwad/winger/center drifting goalkickers is basically unstoppable with a match fit team.

We never looked as good as halfway through the season when we were having 10 to 13 separate goalkickers week after week,we were at a high standard then,must agree with this post the cats never seem have a goalkicker who kicks really big numbers.

It is great having a couple big boys down there to take a grab but it is much better
to have many options,but by the end of the season we dried up and it was left to too few.

 

[Swampfox]

I wasn't born...but looking at the ladder positions, etc.

1960 - Not good enough, Melbourne a better team, got pantsed.

1964 - Unlucky, Melbourne at end of era, we probably didn't have a great Full Forward, but nor did anyone. Lost by 4 points from last goal of game. Any other game Gabbo's shot would have won it.

1966 - Unlucky, Saints and us were really closely matched. Probably their hunger having never won vs ours having won 8 years earlier was the difference. 1 point loss means anything could have happened. 2010 was the swing and roundabouts our way.

1970 - Probably due to the Tuddenham-McKenna clash. Reduced effectiveness of both players. Carlton came back through champions stepping up; we tired and through poor kicking lost a game we never should. Carlton's team that era also won 1968 and 1972. They were a brilliant team - 3 in 5 puts them at the current Geelong team level.

1977 - Our young side tired and were over-run. We probably should have held on given 27 point 3/4 time lead, however North kicked very poorly and in game play should have arguably been ahead at 3/4 time. North's team made GFs from 1974 to 1978. A very good team. Ours came from the spoon and may have felt making the GF was good enough.

1979 - This would have been adequate revenge for 1970 as they were the side expected to win and do it easily, yet we almost pulled off the upset victory. Harmes and a dose of bad luck in the final quarter being short for some unknown reason possibly led to the defeat. Carlton won 1979-81-82, 3 in 4 years which only very few teams have done.


So - did we lose to good opponents?
1960, 1964, 1970, 1977, 1979 - unequivocally yes - the opponents went on to win other GFs in that era against not just Collingwood
1966 - arguably not, the Saints have won nothing else in their tragic history.

Looking at the other defeats since then:
1980 - Lost to a Richmond team similar to the 1964 Melbourne opponents - nearing the end of an era. Still, we were lucky to make it.
1981 - Lost to Carlton, ran out of legs after a long finals campaign. Carlton as indicated earlier won 3 out of 4 in that era.
2002 - Lost to Brisbane as part of 3-peat. Unlucky as the underdog.
2003 - Lost to Brisbane as part of 3-peat. Poor performance as favourite.
2011 - Lost to Geelong as part of 3 in 5 years. Probably deserved to lose and went into the game as underdog, as an unsettled preparation dogged the team through the year.

One could say we were lucky to make:
2011 - Hawthorn should have beaten us in the Prelim, and it took a miracle escape for us to win.
2002 - From 4th
1981 - Beating Fitzroy by a point in a Semi with a goal deep deep into time on.
1980 - From 5th

On the whole I think we should have won two more from the ones we were involved in. I would say one of 1964-66, and one out of 1970-77-79. These were the flags that went missing.

The others....well they were just our team doing what it always does, punching above its weight.

For someone that wasnt born in the early part of your assement you have done an excellent job

The powerful Melbourne team of the 50,s took until the 1960 season when it beat essendon to start losing momentum due to many retirements and not really anything special within its recruitment

Hassa Mann , Barry Bourke etc the exceptions

Ironically it was also the first time the Demons made a financial loss

By far the best team of 1964 was in fact Geelong and you guys beat them

I would say that this was your grand Final

Although Melbourne won by 4 points we lost 2 of our greatest names in our history in very short time

the start of the 1965 season we were flying and all of a sudden the wheels fell off

Barassi left for Carlton , Norm Smith got the sack

Collingwood were still competitive and really only had one period at the bottom under Tony Shaw

I still feel for Bob Rose as he was a genuine star on and off the field

 

[Bay Pie]

I haven't read the full thread, but for the historians out there, how many of these GF looses were we favoured to win? From recollection and brief readings less then half.

Losing as a the best team is grating and a choke. Choking stinks, and I'm annoyed with any GF loss where we were the best team in the comp.

Losing as the 2nd best or worse team is no poorer a performance then any other team in the competition in that year.

 

[jonbe54]

I haven't read the full thread, but for the historians out there, how many of these GF looses were we favoured to win? From recollection and brief readings less then half.

Losing as a the best team is grating and a choke. Choking stinks, and I'm annoyed with any GF loss where we were the best team in the comp.

Losing as the 2nd best or worse team is no poorer a performance then any other team in the competition in that year.

I'm no historian either bay but our most notorious 'chokes' - in the '70's were in a period of great evenness of the comp. Prob '70 was the worst along with the infamous 'harmes incident'

 

[sherb]

A few points about a couple of your 70s GF losses.

In 1970, Collingwood was far and away the best side during the H&A season, losing only four games (only one of which was to a fellow finalist, and that was by a hair's breadth). I know that you guys had bad luck in the GF (ie the injury to McKenna in the second quarter and the non free kick call to the same player in the final quarter). However, you had a brilliant side that year - the Richardsons, Thompson, Jenkins, Clifton, Twiggy, Waters, Greening, Adamson, Potter, Eakins, Price, McKenna etc and I still reckon that despite the injury to McKenna there is no way that side should have foregone a 44 point half-time lead. (And despite Carlton's revival in the third term, Collingwood was still able to steady and they were 21 points up early in the final quarter, only to see Carlton kick the final five goals of the game).

In 1979, still to this day we hear about the non out of bounds call to Harmes in the final term. But I was there that day and what people seem to forget was this. It had rained and rained and the ground was in very poor shape (bearing in mind that the Ressies GF had been played beforehand and had made the ground even worse). Not too long before half-time Collingwood led the Blues by the best part of five goals, with Carlton still being goalless. That's a massive lead in those conditions. Yet the Pies then allowed Carlton to kick five goals in no time to go in at half time a point to the good. This in my view, to this very day, is what cost Collingwood the game. If they had shut Carlton down before half-time and gone in 4 or 5 goals up in those conditions I reckon they would have won. And even with the Harmes call - it happened a good ten minutes or so before the final siren, leaving a Pies side which was then 10 points down plenty of time to still turn the game around (and they in fact kicked the next goal). And bear in mind that while the boundary umpire copped a lot of flack over that decision, the goal umpire was in perfect position and also called it in.

Please don't treat this as a troll, as it is not intended to be. I've thought about both these games a lot over the years, as they involved the club I support. I still to this day reckon the Pies themselves, and not bad luck or bad calls, cost themselves both those Grand Finals. (And I don't think anyone has even mentioned 1969, when the Pies finished on top of the ladder and didn't even make the GF. 69/70 were truly lost opportunities for the club).

The bloke I feel so sorry for is Bobby Rose, he got his Pies so close on several occasions, only to see his heart broken. It's a pity his players couldn't have got over the line at least once for him.

 

[jonbe54]

A few points about a couple of your 70s GF losses.

In 1970, Collingwood was far and away the best side during the H&A season, losing only four games (only one of which was to a fellow finalist, and that was by a hair's breadth). I know that you guys had bad luck in the GF (ie the injury to McKenna in the second quarter and the non free kick call to the same player in the final quarter). However, you had a brilliant side that year - the Richardsons, Thompson, Jenkins, Clifton, Twiggy, Waters, Greening, Adamson, Potter, Eakins, Price, McKenna etc and I still reckon that despite the injury to McKenna there is no way that side should have foregone a 44 point half-time lead. (And despite Carlton's revival in the third term, Collingwood was still able to steady and they were 21 points up early in the final quarter, only to see Carlton kick the final five goals of the game).

In 1979, still to this day we hear about the non out of bounds call to Harmes in the final term. But I was there that day and what people seem to forget was this. It had rained and rained and the ground was in very poor shape (bearing in mind that the Ressies GF had been played beforehand and had made the ground even worse). Not too long before half-time Collingwood led the Blues by the best part of five goals, with Carlton still being goalless. That's a massive lead in those conditions. Yet the Pies then allowed Carlton to kick five goals in no time to go in at half time a point to the good. This in my view, to this very day, is what cost Collingwood the game. If they had shut Carlton down before half-time and gone in 4 or 5 goals up in those conditions I reckon they would have won. And even with the Harmes call - it happened a good ten minutes or so before the final siren, leaving a Pies side which was then 10 points down plenty of time to still turn the game around (and they in fact kicked the next goal). And bear in mind that while the boundary umpire copped a lot of flack over that decision, the goal umpire was in perfect position and also called it in.

Please don't treat this as a troll, as it is not intended to be. I've thought about both these games a lot over the years, as they involved the club I support. I still to this day reckon the Pies themselves, and not bad luck or bad calls, cost themselves both those Grand Finals. (And I don't think anyone has even mentioned 1969, when the Pies finished on top of the ladder and didn't even make the GF. 69/70 were truly lost opportunities for the club).

The bloke I feel so sorry for is Bobby Rose, he got his Pies so close on several occasions, only to see his heart broken. It's a pity his players couldn't have got over the line at least once for him.

Sherb Carlton deserved those victories in a way - god it hurts to say that about Carlton - because they kept throwing themselves at the contest. Pies had the team but not the heart I believe. Talent isn't the be all and end all of footy - especially in the GF

 

[sherb]

Peter McKenna was so accurate 90othat one day at Victoria Park, he had a set shot deep in the pocket on an angle so fine he couldt see daylight.

The ball got stuck between the goalposts.

McKenna was a gun.

In five years from 69 to 73, he kicked 97, 146, 143, 134 and 86.

He wasn't the greatest overhead or contested mark (surprising, given how tall he is), but he was a brilliant lead (being serviced by players of the quality of Price, Greening, etc) and a magnificent exponent of the drop punt. So he didn't have to get a lot of kicks to kick a bag of goals.

Speaking of his height, I remember standing next to him at the bar at the SCG during his commentary days. I was truly surprised how tall he was, he must have been 6' 6.

It was sad that his kidney injury cut short his VFL career. But it didn't stop his football days, in fact he became a journeyman - his last six seasons of footy were played with six different clubs. Collingwood, Devonport, Carlton, Geelong West, Port Melbourne and Northcote.

The other interesting thing about him is that he shared a birthday with teammate Len Thompson (RIP), the Don......................and me.

 

[jonbe54]

McKenna was a gun.

In five years from 69 to 73, he kicked 97, 146, 143, 134 and 86.

He wasn't the greatest overhead or contested mark (surprising, given how tall he is), but he was a brilliant lead (being serviced by players of the quality of Price, Greening, etc) and a magnificent exponent of the drop punt. So he didn't have to get a lot of kicks to kick a bag of goals.

Speaking of his height, I remember standing next to him at the bar at the SCG during his commentary days. I was truly surprised how tall he was, he must have been 6' 6.

It was sad that his kidney injury cut short his VFL career. But it didn't stop his football days, in fact he became a journeyman - his last six seasons of footy were played with six different clubs. Collingwood, Devonport, Carlton, Geelong West, Port Melbourne and Northcote.

The other interesting thing about him is that he shared a birthday with teammate Len Thompson (RIP), the Don......................and me.

I knew about the birthday as Len was a cousin of mine only regret was of course his time at carlton lol

 

[sherb]

I knew about the birthday as Len was a cousin of mine only regret was of course his time at carlton lol

I got his goals wrong, as I went off the top of my head.

I think it was 97, 143, 134, 130 & 86.

Still fairly flash though.

 

[jonbe54]

I got his goals wrong, as I went off the top of my head.

I think it was 97, 143, 134, 130 & 86.

Still fairly flash though.

Yes flash but it sort of limited us because every man and his dog knew where it was going when richo or pricey or jonboy got the ball.

 

[sherb]

Yes flash but it sort of limited us because every man and his dog knew where it was going when richo or pricey or jonboy got the ball.

Of course it did. That's can be the drawback of having such a gun forward if you are not careful.

It was no different when Lockett played here in Sydney. The ball would go in his direction consistently, even when he was far from the best option.

And the best example is Hudson at Hawthorn. They'd virtually clear the entire full forward line out so that Hudson was one out with his opponent when the ball went in.