Opinion Comparing 2009 to 2016. How right/wrong are they?

[catempire]

But in acquiring those key players we created depth, because guys who were getting games last season are now well back in the pecking order. And while the movement of players is much more fluid generally than it was in 2009, we shipped a lot of depth during that period - guys like Prismall, King, Mumford etc.

Yep, true. My point is things have changed since 2009.

Firstly, in the period up until free agency was introduced you relied almost solely on the draft to build your list (supplemented by a shallow trade market). This meant if you were patient and you hit the draft constantly and had a good strike rate you could build up a list of not just a good 22 but a good 30 or so. Clubs that tried to take short cuts routinely failed. Those that built from the draft with prudent selections generally succeeded.

Then Gold Coast and GWS came in taking 80-odd players off the existing 16 clubs, almost all of that being top-end talent. This factor alone means lists, on average, are weaker than they were beforehand.

Finally, in the current environment, players down the pecking order no longer have to be as patient as they once did. Free agency has lubricated player movement both practically and culturally. Players sitting just outside the 22 are likely to want to move on for better opportunities, mostly at inferior clubs. Clubs vying for a flag are not able to attract fringe-type players because they can't offer game time. As you say, this is offset somewhat by being able to attract high-end talent which pushes good players to the fringe.

In my view, Geelong 2004-2014 is the last example we will see of a club able to build and sustain a Premiership-squad almost solely through the draft or anything close to it. Hawthorn started the trend away from it by cherry-picking need players from other clubs and it has burgeoned from there. You just can't stockpile enough talent through the draft now to claw back up the ladder and be competitive with clubs willing to bring in FA talent and promise success to their players. To succeed, clubs will continue to be desperate to attract the top end talent required for a Premiership-standard 22 and yes, to some extent this might be at the expense of players of the calibre of Hamling/Walker/West/Jansen, etc. who are potentially good "depth" but are not going to win you a flag.

The days of 2009-standard squads are over IMO.

 

[Turbocat]

Fairly simplistic comparison for mine.
2009 was all about redemption for a side that was rated the best and blew it. 2016 is about a side that is coming together in very different way.

2009 was full of Premiership players. 2016 has a couple but a lot of inexperience..

2009 were a very settled group and the changes were micro ..the players had been to war with each other. 2016 we a getting better as a group each time we play..and we still may not even be playing our final side yet.

 

[catempire]

Lloydy this morning decided to compare our key players from 2009 to that of 2016. Broadly whilst he didn't say as such in so many words I think replacing those on the left with our present day players on the right within 7 years without bottoming out is quite good.

The one that interests me is Johnson v Menzel. Can we say that Menzel has replaced SJ and is playing as well as SJ did up forward?

View attachment 258748

Back to the point of Lloyd's exercise: yes, there are some similarities. As we all know though, reputations are built on premierships. A comparison at this point is always going to be hollow for that reason.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Back to the point of Lloyd's exercise: yes, there are some similarities. As we all know though, reputations are built on premierships. A comparison at this point is always going to be hollow for that reason.

I agree which is why I'm quite distant in agreeing with them, that said the waffle about younger players finals records. meh, doesn't faze me in the slightest regarding what's happened in previous years.

I'd probably only agree with Menzel and SJ from 09. That looks to be a good comparison.

 

[evolutionbaby]

I think the only comparison that's important at this stage is how 2016 will be relative to our opposition. They don't have to be better than 2009, just better than the other 17 teams. Would prefer they won this year's flag and then have the discussion in the off-season.

 

[Vdubs]

I'd reckon Motlop would probably be suited to a Wojinski type player, doesn't have the hardened edge to be a chappy replacement. Little Lincoln McCarthy could prove to be the better suitor, if he rises even close to Chappys caliber i'd be ecstatic.

As far as impact, Chappy / Mots is fair. Motlop has the potential to be NS. Not many others can we say that about.

 

[Vdubs]

bit like comparing Mooney to M.Brown

Harsh Bobby.
Chappy was a champion, but many people outside Geelong really rate Motlop as one of our must stop players and potential match- winners. He is easier to stop than Chappy was, but give him the GF or Prelim stage, he'll gobble it up, no doubt.

 

[Cezz The Catter]

As far as impact, Chappy / Mots is fair. Motlop has the potential to be NS. Not many others can we say that about.

Chappys consistency and ability to stand up in the big games was profound though something Motlop lacks at times. I love Chappy feel this is an unfair comparison for Mots himself.

 

[Vdubs]

Chappys consistency and ability to stand up in the big games was profound though something Motlop lacks at times. I love Chappy feel this is an unfair comparison for Mots himself.

Agree, but Motlop should not be undervalued. His best is elite. He is very moody about letting us see it. But I'm glad he's our player.
Chapman was on another level, no doubt, a 9.5 cf an 8.5 maybe.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Harsh Bobby.
Chappy was a champion, but many people outside Geelong really rate Motlop as one of our must stop players and potential match- winners. He is easier to stop than Chappy was, but give him the GF or Prelim stage, he'll gobble it up, no doubt.

When Motlop is at the top of his game he is an elite finisher. There was no player like him in our 09 team. Hence the hamfisted Chapman comparison. We don't have a Chapman in 2016, either.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

As far as impact, Chappy / Mots is fair. Motlop has the potential to be NS. Not many others can we say that about.

Chapman made a name out of standing up in big games/finals. That doesn't sound like Motlop at all to me.

 

[cat in sydney]

Comparison neglects to address one glaring difference... M. Rooke.

 

[Vdubs]

Comparison neglects to address one glaring difference... M. Rooke.

Caddy? Closest yet far away, for sure

 

[Vdubs]

Chapman made a name out of standing up in big games/finals. That doesn't sound like Motlop at all to me.

Not yet.
Chappy was the motivating factor for our 07 success, he willed himself and our team to get there.
Motlop is nothing like that.
Selwood comes closest in that area, as does Danger.
We had the 08 failure to spur on 09.
Maybe 2015 is that tool for 2016.

 

[Lana]

Caddy? Closest yet far away, for sure

Not even remotely close

 

[Vdubs]

Not even remotely close

True, but until that 09 GF, Max had not been deified.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Comparison neglects to address one glaring difference... M. Rooke.

Cocky reminds me of rooke in how he tackles, hitting blokes at full tilt.

 

[Munich]

Paul Chapman and Steven Motlop...

I know, I almost choked on my swedish beer reading that one.

Pfft!

 

[Badtemperedbadger]

ummmm as good as Motlop, Duncan, Guthrie, Blicavs, Smith are turning out to be, they will never have a physical imposing presence about them and a few of them lack true hate, or fire in the belly from previous finals losses.

Chapman, Kelly, Corey, Johnson . . . they had a hatred about their game which was visible from the start of the 2007 season. It only fired up more by the time September rolled around. They all got cocky and they lost to Hawthorn the following year but again, that hatred was sparked to even greater heights and the rest is history.

Duncan, Blicavs, Motlop, Smith, they are probably better athletes but they aren't tough and it is why they will always carry question marks for me between now and week 1 of the finals.

Give me a spell,
why do posters insist on using terms such as "never', you obviously don't think they will Bobby so express it as thus.
It may not be intentional but when such terms are used it does come across as a bit high and mighty, fair enough on the opinion but don't state it as fact, you may be right you may be wrong.

Gee Blitz not tough, guess busting your guts for years to get to the Olympics, then turning to a game you haven't played for years, then win a B& F.
Tackle manically and apply second and third efforts, I think shows a lot of resilience, I think hes tough alright, maybe not in the Scarlett role but I'd back him in any day on those stakes.

Smith again wouldn't call him a hard nut necessarily, but lets wait and see how tough he is, I think we may be surprised pleasantly on this one

 

[JUBJUB]

Paul Chapman and Steven Motlop...

Caddy for Chapman
Motlop for Varcoe
Clark for Mooney
Ruggles for Wojo
Byrnes for McCarthy/Lang/Gregson
Milburn for Kolodjashnij

 

[Bobby_]

Give me a spell,
why do posters insist on using terms such as "never', you obviously don't think they will Bobby so express it as thus.
It may not be intentional but when such terms are used it does come across as a bit high and mighty, fair enough on the opinion but don't state it as fact, you may be right you may be wrong.

Gee Blitz not tough, guess busting your guts for years to get to the Olympics, then turning to a game you haven't played for years, then win a B& F.
Tackle manically and apply second and third efforts, I think shows a lot of resilience, I think hes tough alright, maybe not in the Scarlett role but I'd back him in any day on those stakes.

Smith again wouldn't call him a hard nut necessarily, but lets wait and see how tough he is, I think we may be surprised pleasantly on this one

Couldn't care less if you disagree with me or not.
It is my views on football, not yours.

Blicavs has no fear factor about his game at all. He is a 6ft'6 footballer who runs all day long and that's it.
Absolutely no gifted qualities whatsoever. Does he kick goals? Does he take marks like other players his size? Does he hit packs and bust them open? Does he actually flip games of football at all?
No he does not.

Duncan is like a Deledio but to lesser standard. He's all class but get him in a final, and whatever we have witnessed during the H&A, it disappears on the big stage just as it did 2013 & 2014 in the finals.

As for Motlop, give me a break!
When the team is struggling, you won't see Motlop anywhere near a contest. If the team is winning, he's looking the goods and that will always be his game.
He won't be doing anything in a final if we happen to find ourselves down by 4 goals heading into halftime. Won't ever change as we are talking about 100 gamers who are 25 yrs and no longer newbies.
They have been coached to play a certain way throughout their careers to date so why would we somehow expect a change just because we have added 3 crucial pieces of the puzzle to the list.

 

[Partridge]

True, but until that 09 GF, Max had not been deified.

Spot on. And overall, to be honest he's pretty overrated as a player around here.

 

[candiehappy]

Caddy for Chapman
Motlop for Varcoe
Clark for Mooney
Ruggles for Wojo
Byrnes for McCarthy/Lang/Gregson
Milburn for Kolodjashnij

to up the ante on the controversy, Hawkins for Hawkins

 

[Badtemperedbadger]

Couldn't care less if you disagree with me or not.
It is my views on football, not yours.

Blicavs has no fear factor about his game at all. He is a 6ft'6 footballer who runs all day long and that's it.
Absolutely no gifted qualities whatsoever. Does he kick goals? Does he take marks like other players his size? Does he hit packs and bust them open? Does he actually flip games of football at all?
No he does not.

Duncan is like a Deledio but to lesser standard. He's all class but get him in a final, and whatever we have witnessed during the H&A, it disappears on the big stage just as it did 2013 & 2014 in the finals.

As for Motlop, give me a break!
When the team is struggling, you won't see Motlop anywhere near a contest. If the team is winning, he's looking the goods and that will always be his game.
He won't be doing anything in a final if we happen to find ourselves down by 4 goals heading into halftime. Won't ever change as we are talking about 100 gamers who are 25 yrs and no longer newbies.
They have been coached to play a certain way throughout their careers to date so why would we somehow expect a change just because we have added 3 crucial pieces of the puzzle to the list.

Wow mate,
Did you even read my post. Nowhere did I even mention Motlop, read first mate then respond.
I know you don't care Bobby and honestly that's to your detriment, I wasn't having a go at your right to an opinion just that you state it as fact.

You used to better than this Bobby, and I don't want to get in a verbal stoush. Please try to not respond with arrogance and angst, by all means your opinion is warranted, just questioning you stating facts that are actually opinions, anyway carry on

 

[LawnMosey]

Caddy for Chapman
Motlop for Varcoe
Clark for Mooney
Ruggles for Wojo
Byrnes for McCarthy/Lang/Gregson
Milburn for Kolodjashnij

This is looking better, but I'd have Ruggles for J.Hunt and on size/type of player, I see Thurlow as more the Milburn type (I know he's injured, so Kolo's a good fit). Don't think we have a Wojo... If you could give Bews Murdoch's pace and left foot maybe...