Opinion Could we learn from Richmond?

[Apex36]

So nothing to learn from Richmond then?

Horses for courses jmac. Buckley and Hardwick are different beasts. I'm not convinced that a change of personnel around Buckley will make him any less stubborn or more open to the ideas of others.

 

[doodles98]

So nothing to learn from Richmond then?

Not really tbh. Richmond aren't winning a flag under Hardwick either.
Can see that they are well bonded and enjoying their footy as a team.. and they are getting results above the talent level of their list. Don't think we needed Richmond to show us that this was important and achievable however.

The other lesson from Richmond: don't appoint rookie coaches before they are ready because you will be in a long-haul to nowhere.

 

[doodles98]

Horses for courses jmac. Buckley and Hardwick are different beasts. I'm not convinced that a change of personnel around Buckley will make him any less stubborn or more open to the ideas of others.

When your gameplan gets torpedoed by the opposition putting a spare man in defence, and you have no answer to it for 3 quarters... No amount of new assistants are going to help.
I mean... It was an unforeseeable piece of brilliant avant garde groundbreaking rocket science coaching from Scott to put a spare man in defence at qtr time wasn't it. We can't expect Buckley to be able to devise the algorithm to overcome this tactic with only 3\4 of footy left. I mean this was something new and groundbreaking... Geelong moved one extra player behind the ball.... Wtf could Bucks be expected to do about that bolt from the blue? He will need years to devise a successful counter-measure and get the team drilled to implement it.

 

[doodles98]

It's the Richmond fans who can teach us so much. They can teach us all about the power of belief/delusion. They can tell us all a bit of something about the need to maintain a sense of humour under adversity, or at least how to make others laugh.

Let Richmond be thy guide.

They can teach us new uses for a dump truck full of chicken poo.

 

[DaVe86]

Not really tbh. Richmond aren't winning a flag under Hardwick either.
Can see that they are well bonded and enjoying their footy as a team.. and they are getting results above the talent level of their list. Don't think we needed Richmond to show us that this was important and achievable however.

The other lesson from Richmond: don't appoint rookie coaches before they are ready because you will be in a long-haul to nowhere.

Richmond are probably going to finish top 4, after finishing bottom 6 last year. So I think there's a bit that can be learnt. Especially since I don't think they really have a better list than us.

They only have 1 key forward, and the smalls around Riewoldt aren't high picks either. What they do have is the competitions best full back and the competitions best midfielder.

They are clearly an example of a side which has benefitted from a less convoluted game-plan and a bit more freedom. They play with a lot of hunger and put a lot of forward pressure on. I think we are a similar side in many regards. We lack key forwards, and get very confused with complex game styles.

I think there is a fair bit that can be learned.

 

[doodles98]

Richmond are probably going to finish top 4, after finishing bottom 6 last year. So I think there's a bit that can be learnt. Especially since I don't think they really have a better list than us.

They only have 1 key forward, and the smalls around Riewoldt aren't high picks either. What they do have is the competitions best full back and the competitions best midfielder.

They are clearly an example of a side which has benefitted from a less convoluted game-plan and a bit more freedom. They play with a lot of hunger and put a lot of forward pressure on. I think we are a similar side in many regards. We lack key forwards, and get very confused with complex game styles.

I think there is a fair bit that can be learned.

So you have learned that you can make a team play above its collective talent level, and that teams play better if they have a good gameplan that they have bought into and that suits them as a team. Anything else? How come you only learned these groundbreaking new concepts this year from Richmond btw?

 

[Buckley is my hero]

The only reason Richmond is better this year is because of player personnel. Nothing to do with changing assistant coaches. Just fiction.

 

[CFC2010]

Posted this at the start of the year in another thread................he also predicted the Tigers to rise up the ladder.

Very interesting theory and he got it right again this year.


Analytics point to a long year for the Magpies
By SEN

A sports data analytics company headed by a former Wallaby has forecast a gloomy year ahead for Collingwood fans.

Ben Darwin, who played 28 tests for the Wallabies between 2001 to 2003, heads up GAIN LINE, who have developed a metric – the Team Work Index (TWI), that can help predict the future fortunes of sporting teams all over the world.


“It’s the long-term philosophy of a club. Are they a club that buys, or are they a club that creates?” Darwin explained.

“What we find is, with clubs that create their own players, or draft young players through the system, is that those players with the stability the clubs have, they learn much faster.

“Whereas when players are coming in from other clubs, they try to influence other guys into the way to play, and often at times that could be quite disruptive.”

“The biggest thing that we’ve found is that the talent coming into the system is nowhere near as important as how the system is built,

“Its not so much about the who, it’s the house and how they build the house.”

The metric successfully predicted the rise of the Western Bulldogs – who they rated in the top two in each of the past three seasons, and has forecast that Collingwood will drop away the most this season.

“There is a huge amount of excitement around Collingwood about what they can produce – and we’ve seen that excitement with a lot of other clubs,” he said.

“The difficultly that comes here is that can’t find any coach in the world that can function above TWI – we’ve never found anyone that can be so good that they can overcome it.

“Wayne Bennett went to the Newcastle Knights and they underperformed dramatically, but we actually thought he did a brilliant job given what he had.

“The hard part with a club like Collingwood is that there is so much pressure from their fans for them to be successful, that sometimes they take answers in different ways and there is a lack of patience there.

“When you have that lack of patience there, you get churn, and when you have churn you get a lack of stability, and a lack of stability tends to creates a fault.”

Of the clubs down the ladder, Darwin said that Melbourne is the club who the metric favors most to rise up the table.

“We aren’t talking about winning titles, we are talking about coming up two or three places,” he said

 

[Carringbush2010]

Could our club be about to use Richmond as a template for re-signing Bucks?

From a performance point of view, they have list managed well in the off season we have definitely not. Also - previously to this off season they have obviously developed their young much better - Costagna is one example and we have not. Those 2 areas are the big difference between them and us

Should the "blueprint" or "review" suggest that we follow the same path in the belief that we'll mirror the improvement then well all I can say is ....really?!

 

[DaVe86]

Posted this at the start of the year in another thread................he also predicted the Tigers to rise up the ladder.

Very interesting theory and he got it right again this year.


Analytics point to a long year for the Magpies
By SEN

A sports data analytics company headed by a former Wallaby has forecast a gloomy year ahead for Collingwood fans.

Ben Darwin, who played 28 tests for the Wallabies between 2001 to 2003, heads up GAIN LINE, who have developed a metric – the Team Work Index (TWI), that can help predict the future fortunes of sporting teams all over the world.


“It’s the long-term philosophy of a club. Are they a club that buys, or are they a club that creates?” Darwin explained.

“What we find is, with clubs that create their own players, or draft young players through the system, is that those players with the stability the clubs have, they learn much faster.

“Whereas when players are coming in from other clubs, they try to influence other guys into the way to play, and often at times that could be quite disruptive.”

“The biggest thing that we’ve found is that the talent coming into the system is nowhere near as important as how the system is built,

“Its not so much about the who, it’s the house and how they build the house.”

The metric successfully predicted the rise of the Western Bulldogs – who they rated in the top two in each of the past three seasons, and has forecast that Collingwood will drop away the most this season.

“There is a huge amount of excitement around Collingwood about what they can produce – and we’ve seen that excitement with a lot of other clubs,” he said.

“The difficultly that comes here is that can’t find any coach in the world that can function above TWI – we’ve never found anyone that can be so good that they can overcome it.

“Wayne Bennett went to the Newcastle Knights and they underperformed dramatically, but we actually thought he did a brilliant job given what he had.

“The hard part with a club like Collingwood is that there is so much pressure from their fans for them to be successful, that sometimes they take answers in different ways and there is a lack of patience there.

“When you have that lack of patience there, you get churn, and when you have churn you get a lack of stability, and a lack of stability tends to creates a fault.”

Of the clubs down the ladder, Darwin said that Melbourne is the club who the metric favors most to rise up the table.

“We aren’t talking about winning titles, we are talking about coming up two or three places,” he said

I recall listening to this interview, and also recall at some point he said Richmond's measurements were also trending positive.

There may be something to it, and perhaps the best thing we can do is just stick the course and build cohesion.

On the flip side, after 6 years, it is sad we are seemingly still not at a cohesive state by now. But the past is the past. It would be interesting to know what the measurements make of Collingwood next year if we make minimal list changes.

 

[CFC2010]

I recall listening to this interview, and also recall at some point he said Richmond's measurements were also trending positive.

There may be something to it, and perhaps the best thing we can do is just stick the course and build cohesion.

On the flip side, after 6 years, it is sad we are seemingly still not at a cohesive state by now. But the past is the past. It would be interesting to know what the measurements make of Collingwood next year if we make minimal list changes.

I believe this "theory" is what is going to save Bucks bacon this year.

His defense is that the list changes were Club driven........so the Club as a whole should take responsibility.......sorry Hine but you are up to your neck on this one.

I still don't think Bucks can coach but I am believer now in Ben Darwin's model of analysis. It is very interesting that he applies it to all sports.

 

[jc37]

I think the Tigers have done extremely well particularly given they only have 1 key forward. They have the best defence in the comp and 2 players in top 5 in comp (Rance, Martin). If they could fluke a flag it would be an amazing effort because I actually think they have one of the worst lists in the comp. They have 18 automatic selections in the best 22 and probably another 10-15 players trying to get the last 4 spots but that group of players are fairly average. On top of this they have about 6-7 players turning 30 next year. Luck could have seen them finish top 2. Luck has also helped them make the finals. I love there fast ball movement and pressure which we should look at and have looked at but I will be amazed if they dont fall out of the 8 next year particularly if they lose Martin.

 

[swoop42]

Wouldn't it also be reasonable to assume from Richmond that if the appointment of new assistants have produced a dramatic improvement that one of these assistants might well do a better job as senior coach than Hardwick and dare I say Buckley?

 

[mike123]

It's not comparable, Hardwrixk had more credits in the bank than Buckley.

 

[jmac70]

It's not comparable, Hardwrixk had more credits in the bank than Buckley.

Did he? Credits must be easily earnt at Richmond.

 

[mike123]

Did he? Credits must be easily earnt at Richmond.

No it's just shows how little Buckley's credits are...

 

[jmac70]

No it's just shows how little Buckley's credits are...

Does it? How many finals has Hardwick won?

 

[mike123]

Does it? How many finals has Hardwick won?

Hardwick coached Richmond to its first finals series in 12 years and has never missed out on finals 4 times in a row.

 

[jmac70]

Hardwick coached Richmond to its first finals series in 12 years and has never missed out on finals 4 times in a row.

Like I said, their easily pleased at Richmond.

 

[mike123]

Like I said, their easily pleased at Richmond.

Still it's allot better than what Buckley has achieved. But nice try at deflecting.

 

[jmac70]

Still it's allot better than what Buckley has achieved. But nice try at deflecting.

I'm not deflecting anything, they are both average coaches. I certainly wouldn't want Hardwick at the Pies.

 

[doodles98]

Like I said, their easily pleased at Richmond.

If Hardwick had missed finals for 4 years in a row he would not still be coaching Richmond. He wouldn't be getting a 2 year extension when the expectation is he's miss for a 5th year either. Seems to me that these days we are more easily pleased than them.

 

[mike123]

I'm not deflecting anything, they are both average coaches. I certainly wouldn't want Hardwick at the Pies.

You're potting Richmond to take the focus of Buckley, that's a deflection.

 

[DrDavoren]

Probably more to learn from Hawthorn.
IIRC Clarkson was extremely close to being let go after a similar length at the helm and Dunstall and the board held their nerve and the rest is history.
Similar with Thompson at Geelong and now hopefully Dimma at Richmond.

Hopefully we have done enough investigation and are ready to pull the right reign.

Clearly something has to give and I see it as the support around Nathan.

Pity we couldn't retail Caracella as I think he is good as an assistant.

Definitely need ruck coach and skills coach, maybe recruiting reshuffle is good too.

Fun times ahead either way you look at it

 

[doodles98]

You're potting Richmond to take the focus of Buckley, that's a deflection.

But at the same time he's saying we should learn from their excellence.. it is confusing.

I think it goes something like this... We should sack all the assistants and peripheral people and keep the architect of our mess... Because maybe the architect of our mess just needed some better draftsmen around him to hold his hand and distract him with shiny objects every time he was about to make another basic engineering mistake. Our architect has also been unlucky with some entirely predictable forces of nature which have wreaked havock on his early creations. Then there was the dodgy concrete incidents. He's been unlucky we think so we excuse but mainly we persevere with him because we are sure there must be some genius in this architect.

Some get confused and lose faith because his genius has been manifesting itself as a well spoken incompetence these last 6 years... But this is only because of the poor standard of draftmen around him. He just needs patience and nurturing.. patience and nurturing.. patience and nurturing and when we finally bring out this genius we are sure is there, we can all sup on the fruits of his golden loins... And maybe finish 8th one year.