Crows best 22?

[Freddy Bassett]

Martin will be a 150--200 game AFL player. Hope it's for us.

Wow, that is a big call...

 

[Vader]

Wow, that is a big call...

Only if he's referring to Brodie. Massive under-sell if he's referring to Dustin.

 

[Adelaide Cows]

Love Dogga and Douglas but wanted to get Shaw into the mix.

Jaensch and Shaw are the only ones I waivered on for them.

Jaensch provides good run and drive with his foot skills. Douglas has lost some of this (hopefully temporarily).
Dogga is surviving on his footy smarts and strength. Shaw gives us some more height and is the future best dfence. Playing Shaw fast tracks his development, perhaps hes not a better player yet but at some stage needs to come into the mix.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Well.. you get 1 out of 3 for trying. He is the oldest player on our list. As for the other two:

• He barely spent any time playing on Thomas.. that disaster was due to Jaensch & Martin.
• Milne getting off the leash was due to the way Sanderson structures the team, not due to Doughty failing to keep a tight leash on him. If Doughty had been told to wear him like a glove, we barely would have seen Milne (and one of St Kilda's other small forwards would have done the damage instead).

So he would have played well if Sando told him to. Instead he played shit.

 

[Vader]

So he would have played well if Sando told him to. Instead he played shit.

Who says he played shit?

The assumption is that he played badly because Milne got off the leash. Given that Milne got loose due to Sanderson's choices as coach, there is no implication here that Doughty played badly in that game (or any other).

 

[Elite Crow]

Must be great being Doughty, doesn't matter if his opponent gets goals plus he gets credit when his team mates opponent doesn't score goals. Win win, can't lose.

 

[Team DJ]

Vader i understand what youre saying. Yes back in the day he was a best 22er.

But this thread is about our best 22 right now. Doughty isnt and shouldnt be a walk up start. There are others around him who offer very similar if not more and will potentially have a lot more years of service to offer us then he does.

Massive call on our 7th best defender. Very very big call.

Rod Jameson, Mark Bickley

 

[Vader]

Vader i understand what youre saying. Yes back in the day he was a best 22er.

But this thread is about our best 22 right now. Doughty isnt and shouldnt be a walk up start. There are others around him who offer very similar if not more and will potentially have a lot more years of service to offer us then he does.

Massive call on our 7th best defender. Very very big call.

Rod Jameson, Mark Bickley

Nice to have you admit that he was once a best-22'er. It's a step forward from the position you held yesterday.

There is absolutely no doubt at all that Doughty is in our best 22 right now. None whatsoever. At present, the team selections would go something like this.. automatic selections - Rutten (FB), Talia (CHB), Reilly (HBF), Doughty (BP).. now, which of the youngsters is in best form for holding down the remaining two positions? Doughty is so far ahead of Jaensch, Martin, Smith, Henderson and Shaw that it's just not funny. Shaw has played 4 games and got an absolute bath last week. Henderson & Jaensch will both be playing in the SANFL this week. Smith is still learning the ropes and has the potential to surpass Doughty in the future (albeit playing in the midfield rather than defence). That's the future, this week he will probably be wearing the green bib. That leaves Martin, who nobody rates as a defender (though possibly he may have a role further up the ground). There's no two ways about it - Doughty remains a solid member of our best 22 and his position is currently under no threat at all. I really do wish that the youngsters were putting more pressure on his position, because that would at least mean that our defence would be looking more secure for 2013 and beyond when Doughty is retired.

Bickley was a midfielder first and foremost. Doughty is better than Jamison ever was.

 

[BUTTON 92]

Vader i understand what youre saying. Yes back in the day he was a best 22er.

But this thread is about our best 22 right now. Doughty isnt and shouldnt be a walk up start. There are others around him who offer very similar if not more and will potentially have a lot more years of service to offer us then he does.

Massive call on our 7th best defender. Very very big call.

Rod Jameson, Mark Bickley

Doughty is easily in our best 22. (can actually defend)

 

[Team DJ]

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I have Johncock Henderson Otton Smtih all ahead of him at the moment with Jaensch nipping at his heels.

My reason for this is because of how much the game has changed. If it was 1995 when you could just have a defensive BP who offered nothing else, Doughty would still have a year or 2 left in him.

But its not, just like ive heard you all whinge on here about Taylors lack of defensive output in the past, when he is a Permanent Forward, surely a permanent back like Doughty is must offer something on the attacking end. Whixh he does not.

 

[Vader]

Otten? Seriously? The same Otten who has barely looked like a shadow of an AFL footballer since returning from injury? Otten had the potential to surpass Doughty when he was first recruited. His knee injury put an end to that.. now he looks like he'll need luck on his side to survive the delisting period at the end of this year.

Smith is not ahead of him, though he does have the potential to go past him. That said, Smith's future lies in the midfield - he's only spending time in defence while he learns his trade and develops physically.

Jaensch will never be anywhere near as good as Doughty, purely because he's hopeless when it comes to one-on-one contests, where Doughty excels. Jaensch's only weapon is his kicking. He's not spectacularly quick and he's a liability when competing in aerial duels. Right now, the selectors will be looking at Jaensch and wondering what to do with him. He's not a defender and the wing & small forward positions are all filled with players who are considerably better than him. Where does that leave him?

Yes, I whinged about Walker's lack of defensive output last year (and the year before). To his credit, he's improved dramatically in this area and has become a far more complete footballer. There's no longer anything left to complain about.

Doughty's job is much like Petrenko's (at the other end of the field), a job which I erred in not giving Petrenko due credit for earlier in the season. Both players are first and foremost charged with stopping their opponents, eliminating them from the contest. Anything positive they add to the offence is almost a bonus, though it's more important for Petrenko given his presence in the forward line. Doughty's job is to feed the runners - the likes of Jaensch & Martin. It's not his job to run off his opponent, creating the play. He's 32, going on 33, and in his last season of AFL footy - that kind of job goes to a much younger player.

 

[Team DJ]

Otten? Seriously? The same Otten who has barely looked like a shadow of an AFL footballer since returning from injury? Otten had the potential to surpass Doughty when he was first recruited. His knee injury put an end to that.. now he looks like he'll need luck on his side to survive the delisting period at the end of this year.

Smith is not ahead of him, though he does have the potential to go past him. That said, Smith's future lies in the midfield - he's only spending time in defence while he learns his trade and develops physically.

Jaensch will never be anywhere near as good as Doughty, purely because he's hopeless when it comes to one-on-one contests, where Doughty excels. Jaensch's only weapon is his kicking. He's not spectacularly quick and he's a liability when competing in aerial duels. Right now, the selectors will be looking at Jaensch and wondering what to do with him. He's not a defender and the wing & small forward positions are all filled with players who are considerably better than him. Where does that leave him?

Yes, I whinged about Walker's lack of defensive output last year (and the year before). To his credit, he's improved dramatically in this area and has become a far more complete footballer. There's no longer anything left to complain about.

Doughty's job is much like Petrenko's (at the other end of the field), a job which I erred in not giving Petrenko due credit for earlier in the season. Both players are first and foremost charged with stopping their opponents, eliminating them from the contest. Anything positive they add to the offence is almost a bonus, though it's more important for Petrenko given his presence in the forward line. Doughty's job is to feed the runners - the likes of Jaensch & Martin. It's not his job to run off his opponent, creating the play. He's 32, going on 33, and in his last season of AFL footy - that kind of job goes to a much younger player.

Couldnt agree less with most of that.

Otton my bad, he isnt really fighting Doughty for a spot. Hes more looking at Sam Shaws spot, but i do think he still has a big future in the tri colours, just needs to get some confidence back.
Smith is absolutley better then Doughty now. And will be miles better in the future. His pace if nothing ese gets him over the line. Agreed he will develop into a midfielder but what better way to get him AFL experience then by continually playing on the electric small forward in the comp.

I agree with Jaensch. His skills and pace are far better then DOughty but defensivley he is not. I would like to see him on a wing, or try to free him up in defence rather then Reilly and use that leg as the weapon it is. Reilly then could move into a shut down role.

 

[jackster83]

OK Vader, answer me this:

Doughty right now would do a better job in his current position than say Luke Brown, Smith or Jaensch (as well as an out-of-form Tambling and Johncock). I think everyone here can accept that.

BUT if one of them was given his role to play and was left in the side for the rest of the season, who do you think would offer more by the time finals come around?

His output in terms of keeping his opponent quiet is still respectable (his offensive output has dropped off a fair bit this year though) but don't you think one of the alternatives could either surpass or at least match him, AND not leave us with a hole to fill by his retirement come the end of the year?

In saying that, I would keep him in the side at least until the other small/mid defender's spots are a little more settled.

 

[Team DJ]

OK Vader, answer me this:

Doughty right now would do a better job in his current position than say Luke Brown, Smith or Jaensch (as well as an out-of-form Tambling and Johncock). I think everyone here can accept that.

BUT if one of them was given his role to play and was left in the side for the rest of the season, who do you think would offer more by the time finals come around?

His output in terms of keeping his opponent quiet is still respectable (his offensive output has dropped off a fair bit this year though) but don't you think one of the alternatives could either surpass or at least match him, AND not leave us with a hole to fill by his retirement come the end of the year?

In saying that, I would keep him in the side at least until the other small/mid defender's spots are a little more settled.

The point i have been trying to make exactly.

Whilst he is doing 'okay' there are a swag of other blokes who Sando could say to stand next to your opponent, i dont care if you get one kick, so long as your opponent does to.

Which is only about 3 kicks less then Doughty is getting anyways*

This would give them an extra 10+ games experience before Finals and 2013 comes around to be ready made AFL players, not just rookies.




*not being literal, just a bit of a jab, before you rip my head off.

 

[Vader]

OK Vader, answer me this:

Doughty right now would do a better job in his current position than say Luke Brown, Smith or Jaensch (as well as an out-of-form Tambling and Johncock). I think everyone here can accept that.

BUT if one of them was given his role to play and was left in the side for the rest of the season, who do you think would offer more by the time finals come around?

His output in terms of keeping his opponent quiet is still respectable (his offensive output has dropped off a fair bit this year though) but don't you think one of the alternatives could either surpass or at least match him, AND not leave us with a hole to fill by his retirement come the end of the year?

In saying that, I would keep him in the side at least until the other small/mid defender's spots are a little more settled.

Of those, I would say that Smith is the only one with a possibility of being better than Doughty by the end of the season - and even then, I'd have Doughty as a strong favourite in any betting market. Jaensch can't defend to save his life - he could play for 5 years and still wouldn't be able to do what Doughty does. Brown is a 1st year player who still hasn't shown enough to be given a debut game, I sincerely doubt that he'd be capable of reaching Doughty's current performance level in the space of 3 months.

Now, as I see it, there are 3 positions available for mid-small defenders in our back line, plus Reilly who usually plays a "spare man" role, effectively borrowed from the forward line. Last week it was Doughty + Jaensch + Martin, this week it's Doughty + Smith + Martin. There's no reason why Doughty would or should be dropped when there are already 2 developmental positions available at that end of the field.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Otten? Seriously? The same Otten who has barely looked like a shadow of an AFL footballer since returning from injury? Otten had the potential to surpass Doughty when he was first recruited. His knee injury put an end to that.. now he looks like he'll need luck on his side to survive the delisting period at the end of this year.

Smith is not ahead of him, though he does have the potential to go past him. That said, Smith's future lies in the midfield - he's only spending time in defence while he learns his trade and develops physically.

Jaensch will never be anywhere near as good as Doughty, purely because he's hopeless when it comes to one-on-one contests, where Doughty excels. Jaensch's only weapon is his kicking. He's not spectacularly quick and he's a liability when competing in aerial duels. Right now, the selectors will be looking at Jaensch and wondering what to do with him. He's not a defender and the wing & small forward positions are all filled with players who are considerably better than him. Where does that leave him?

Yes, I whinged about Walker's lack of defensive output last year (and the year before). To his credit, he's improved dramatically in this area and has become a far more complete footballer. There's no longer anything left to complain about.

Doughty's job is much like Petrenko's (at the other end of the field), a job which I erred in not giving Petrenko due credit for earlier in the season. Both players are first and foremost charged with stopping their opponents, eliminating them from the contest. Anything positive they add to the offence is almost a bonus, though it's more important for Petrenko given his presence in the forward line. Doughty's job is to feed the runners - the likes of Jaensch & Martin. It's not his job to run off his opponent, creating the play. He's 32, going on 33, and in his last season of AFL footy - that kind of job goes to a much younger player.

Like it or hate it, Vaders post is spot on the money...

And he was also correct regarding Walker last year, something Walker and his teamates have acknowledged in recent weeks.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Of those, I would say that Smith is the only one with a possibility of being better than Doughty by the end of the season - and even then, I'd have Doughty as a strong favourite in any betting market. Jaensch can't defend to save his life - he could play for 5 years and still wouldn't be able to do what Doughty does. Brown is a 1st year player who still hasn't shown enough to be given a debut game, I sincerely doubt that he'd be capable of reaching Doughty's current performance level in the space of 3 months.

Now, as I see it, there are 3 positions available for mid-small defenders in our back line, plus Reilly who usually plays a "spare man" role, effectively borrowed from the forward line. Last week it was Doughty + Jaensch + Martin, this week it's Doughty + Smith + Martin. There's no reason why Doughty would or should be dropped when there are already 2 developmental positions available at that end of the field.

I agree with this analysis too.

Johncock should also be one of these 3, with Doughty + one of the others.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I have Johncock Henderson Otton Smtih all ahead of him at the moment with Jaensch nipping at his heels.

My reason for this is because of how much the game has changed. If it was 1995 when you could just have a defensive BP who offered nothing else, Doughty would still have a year or 2 left in him.

But its not, just like ive heard you all whinge on here about Taylors lack of defensive output in the past, when he is a Permanent Forward, surely a permanent back like Doughty is must offer something on the attacking end. Whixh he does not.

I cannot ever understand this age bias towards Doughty

The game last week, Doughty certainly wasn't our worse player ....nor against St Kilda
His leadership on-field is invaluable and frankly i don't get it...nor ever have of any of the criticism over the last 4 years
I will agree though the year he spent back in the SANFL was a horrible year

You have Jaensch and Otten in front of Doughty .....oh cmon now

 

[PykeDream]

I'll admit Doughty is best 22 - but ideally he shouldn't be. Of all the players on our list, Johncock, Smith, Laird and Brown are the only other ones who haven't been embarrassed at AFL level as a back pocket. It is a gaping hole, to the extent that we were tore apart by Leigh Adams and Lindsay Thomas last weekend. We're in for a world of hurt if at least one of Laird and Brown don't come on, seeing as Johncock won't last forever and isn't the best defensively, while Brodie Smith is far too promising to spend his whole life in the back pocket.

Would Lyons or Riley offer anything in this regard?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Doughty's job is much like Petrenko's (at the other end of the field), a job which I erred in not giving Petrenko due credit for earlier in the season. Both players are first and foremost charged with stopping their opponents, eliminating them from the contest. Anything positive they add to the offence is almost a bonus, though it's more important for Petrenko given his presence in the forward line. Doughty's job is to feed the runners - the likes of Jaensch & Martin. It's not his job to run off his opponent, creating the play. He's 32, going on 33, and in his last season of AFL footy - that kind of job goes to a much younger player.

Spot on ....Doughty was kept on the list for a specific role
He's playing beautifully for a player of his age ......yes his PS form was awful, but it has the last 3 years and still he manages a consistent & dependable season

Is he starring ? No ... never has, but his experience and leadership has got better with age as he was needed this year with so many young players in the backline

 

[Footypie32]

I'll admit Doughty is best 22 - but ideally he shouldn't be. Of all the players on our list, Johncock, Smith, Laird and Brown are the only other ones who haven't been embarrassed at AFL level as a back pocket. It is a gaping hole, to the extent that we were tore apart by Leigh Adams and Lindsay Thomas last weekend. We're in for a world of hurt if at least one of Laird and Brown don't come on, seeing as Johncock won't last forever and isn't the best defensively, while Brodie Smith is far too promising to spend his whole life in the back pocket.

Would Lyons or Riley offer anything in this regard?

I think that this is the way most posters feel. I think the problem is, along with Johncock he is our only real small defender. And the only one in any form.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I'll admit Doughty is best 22 - but ideally he shouldn't be. Of all the players on our list, Johncock, Smith, Laird and Brown are the only other ones who haven't been embarrassed at AFL level as a back pocket. It is a gaping hole, to the extent that we were tore apart by Leigh Adams and Lindsay Thomas last weekend. We're in for a world of hurt if at least one of Laird and Brown don't come on, seeing as Johncock won't last forever and isn't the best defensively, while Brodie Smith is far too promising to spend his whole life in the back pocket.

Would Lyons or Riley offer anything in this regard?

what do you mean Laird and Brown haven't been embarrassed at AFL level ?

BP will be easily filled ...but you have to remember that whoever does much like Shaw, will have their ups & downs as they gather experience .....acceptance of this fact is foriegn to this board

Smith is a HB / Wingman ...graduating to midfielder. Never will be a BP
Brown will be next cab off the rank ....but like Edwards did he will graduate to on-ball as well
Laird i suspect will be too small for BP and could be isolated with repercussions
Lyons/Riley ...no just can't see it

Jaensch is still the preferred ....and we have to be patient with his development
But also don't discount Nick Joyce & Wright as potentials

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I think that this is the way most posters feel. I think the problem is, along with Johncock he is our only real small defender. And the only one in any form.

nice to hear someone say Doughty is in form

 

[Footypie32]

nice to hear someone say Doughty is in form

... of our small defenders. Just to clarify. Dont want to get misquoted.

 

[Elite Crow]

It's interesting listening to 5AA this morning, they were talking about players under pressure and who needs to lift. Players talked about Vince, MacKay, Porps and wait for it........Douglas and Doughty. They mentioned they have watched Doughty closely this year, and the view of Wildy, Rowey, Bone and one other I cant recall, is he should be under pressure. They acknowledge whilst he does the one percenters he has also let his opponent get away from him. They all want Stiffy fit and back in defence.