Crows vs. Demons - Match Talk

[TheLeftFist8]

I think there's a major disconnect between what the fans want and what they expect to happen in reality.

Shirley & Bode have few fans on BF, most of us would be happy to see them make way for the likes of Knights & Douglas.

However, the perception is that they have a major fan in the coach's box. Thus, we accept that the reality is that their positions are relatively safe unless they go through a major form slump.

Personally, I think Shirley's position in the team is justified. He's our #1 tagger (or run-with player if you prefer to be PC) who finished in the top 10 of the club B&F last year. Bode on the other hand is skating on much thinner ice, with several players watching for him to slip up.

Agreed.

Re Shirley, he has performed his role well (as evidenced by top 10 in B&F) but he is our number 1 tagger at this stage based on opportunity. There is nothing to say that other players could perform this run-with role just as well. Therefore, i would look beyond Shirley, though i still reckon he is in our top 25 and can offer a lot to the side when selected (which as you rightly point out he will be!).

 

[Alex99]

I think there's a major disconnect between what the fans want and what they expect to happen in reality.

Shirley & Bode have few fans on BF, most of us would be happy to see them make way for the likes of Knights & Douglas.

However, the perception is that they have a major fan in the coach's box. Thus, we accept that the reality is that their positions are relatively safe unless they go through a major form slump.

Personally, I think Shirley's position in the team is justified. He's our #1 tagger (or run-with player if you prefer to be PC) who finished in the top 10 of the club B&F last year. Bode on the other hand is skating on much thinner ice, with several players watching for him to slip up.

That’s fair. If perception becomes reality and we don’t have a good season; Mathew Bode (and a few mates) will need to have consistent form to keep his play week in, week out.

Mathew Bode, Michael Doughty and Robert Shirley have been the barometer for good form over the last few years. When they have had very good games, so has the AFC.

All 3 would still be considered in the best 22.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

That’s fair. If perception becomes reality and we don’t have a good season; Mathew Bode (and a few mates) will need to have consistent form to keep his play week in, week out.

Mathew Bode, Michael Doughty and Robert Shirley have been the barometer for good form over the last few years. When they have had very good games, so has the AFC.

All 3 would still be considered in the best 22.

Maybe the old adage that you are only as good as your weakest (not weak as they are good players) links could apply here?

 

[Alex99]

Agreed.

Re Shirley, he has performed his role well (as evidenced by top 10 in B&F) but he is our number 1 tagger at this stage based on opportunity. There is nothing to say that other players could perform this run-with role just as well. Therefore, i would look beyond Shirley, though i still reckon he is in our top 25 and can offer a lot to the side when selected (which as you rightly point out he will be!).

Possession is 9/10th of the law. He (Robert Shirley) has to perform lower than expectation before someone else can be given an opportunity, that why Kris Massie cheekbone injury came at a bad time for him because it has given players like Douglas, Pfeiffer, Knights and Mcintyre an opportunity.

 

[Gets!]

Possession is 9/10th of the law. He (Robert Shirley) has to perform lower than expectation before someone else can be given an opportunity, that why Kris Massie cheekbone injury came at a bad time for him because it give players like Douglas, Pheffer, Knights and McIntire.

Pfeiffer & Mcintyre.

 

[Alex99]

Pfeiffer & Mcintyre.

Oh ok - sorry

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Possession is 9/10th of the law. He (Robert Shirley) has to perform lower than expectation before someone else can be given an opportunity, that why Kris Massie cheekbone injury came at a bad time for him because it has given players like Douglas, Pheffer, Knights and McIntire an opportunity.

You make good sense but it depends on what you mean by expectation...does it mean he is performing up to expectations of what we expect of Shirley in a tagging role (good tagger more often than not), or expectations of what an excellent tagger could be (if the latter keep him for sure!)?

We should always be looking to improve. For instance, lets say Perrie is meeting expectations at CHF (of his own established standards?) but we have another player in the wings who could be better (to exaggerate the argument, let's say a young Jonathon Brown). I would argue that the better option must be selected if we are to continually refine our team to win the premiership. It's difficult to do this at the moment because most of our players have been good recently, but not premiers.

My contention (obviously it can easily be argued for or against!) is that there is are better options for the next couple years in the run-with role who would negate the opposition but add greater elements of skill when in possession (i.e. van Berlo or Porplyzia).

 

[- PC -]

You make good sense but it depends on what you mean by expectation...does it mean he is performing up to expectations of what we expect of Shirley in a tagging role (good tagger more often than not), or expectations of what an excellent tagger could be (if the latter keep him for sure!)?

.

Umm its the expectation of the coaching panel that matters

 

[- PC -]

We should always be looking to improve. For instance, lets say Perrie is meeting expectations at CHF (of his own established standards?) but we have another player in the wings who could be better (to exaggerate the argument, let's say a young Jonathon Brown). I would argue that the better option must be selected if we are to continually refine our team to win the premiership. It's difficult to do this at the moment because most of our players have been good recently, but not premiers.

Could would should. I hate using the executive jargon at times but if Perrie is meeting his ''KPIs'' then why remove him? The hotshot new executive does have to perform a lot better, not the same, better

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Umm its the expectation of the coaching panel that matters

Really? I thought my postings were actually more than a bit of fun footy banter and actually influenced selection. Imagine my surprise when Shirley is selected in Round 1

So...is their expectation based on what Shirley's best is or what they believe a great run-with player can do. Which do you think they should be focussing on? If it is the latter, then they obviously believe that he is the best player we have available for the position who can get closest to that benchmark. If we were allowed to express a viable opinion as supporters i would respectfully disagree.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Could would should. I hate using the executive jargon at times but if Perrie is meeting his ''KPIs'' then why remove him? The hotshot new executive does have to perform a lot better, not the same, better

But teams/companies who improve/progress also have to predict and take chances on promoting young talent...the young hotshot cannot perform better in the role (in this example of AFC's CHF) until he is actually given a decent chance at the higher level.

Always gonna be a balance between introducing young players with potential only trialled at a lower level and proven players...i guess we will leave it up to the selectors

 

[Alex99]

You make good sense but it depends on what you mean by expectation...does it mean he is performing up to expectations of what we expect of Shirley in a tagging role (good tagger more often than not), or expectations of what an excellent tagger could be (if the latter keep him for sure!)?

Neil Craig and the Match Committee expectations. We don’t know what sort of expectation the match committee have asked him to achieve or what his objective would be. If he meets Neil Craig expectation then he will get a game.

We should always be looking to improve. For instance, lets say Perrie is meeting expectations at CHF (of his own established standards?) but we have another player in the wings who could be better (to exaggerate the argument, let's say a young Jonathon Brown). I would argue that the better option must be selected if we are to continually refine our team to win the premiership. It's difficult to do this at the moment because most of our players have been good recently, but not premiers.

It’s extremely hard to change a winning formula as most meet expectation when a team wins, once a team starts to lose it will be very hard to justify keeping player in the side that do not deserve it. In your scenario if we are continually winning games and he stays injury free, he will more than likely keep his place in the side and the kid will miss out. I don’t agree with that philosophy but judging by the past, change will not be made for change sake.

My contention (obviously it can easily be argued for or against!) is that there is are better options for the next couple years in the run-with role who would negate the opposition but add greater elements of skill when in possession (i.e. van Berlo or Porplyzia).

But that is back to my very first point; possession is 9/10th of the law. Robert Shirley currently is holding the ball, if someone wants it they have to stand up and take it from him.

Demand is a good indicator, if Robert Shirley playing form demands that the match committee pick him, they will. If it doesn’t the future has to be ready.

That’s why John Meesen and Ivan Maric current injury may have came at an opportunistic time for Jonathon griffin to grab his spot and not look back.

 

[- PC -]

Really? I thought my postings were actually more than a bit of fun footy banter and actually influenced selection. Imagine my surprise when Shirley is selected in Round 1

So...is their expectation based on what Shirley's best is or what they believe a great run-with player can do. Which do you think they should be focussing on? If it is the latter, then they obviously believe that he is the best player we have available for the position who can get closest to that benchmark. If we were allowed to express a viable opinion as supporters i would respectfully disagree.

Yes you are right , you are allowed an opinion, if it came across that you didnt I apologise.Its just that Shirley and Perrie both have reached a level that the AFC are happy with and as much as we do talk about it , thats all that matters.

You have your best 22 and you stick with it until others demand to be in their or injuries, injuries give you an opportunity to see what else is about.

 

[- PC -]

Good post c98

 

[Stiffy_18]

Man, I CAN'T feel the LOVE here!!!!

Why do people continually have to call out players who give their heart and sould for the jumper just because they might be the type of player they don't like or they might be in a certain age bracket?!

Here is a little fact. In a side that has 22 spots each week its practically impossible to have 22 stars. You need role players that will complement your stars and do the tough things that don't get noticed so your stars can do the flashy things that makes everyone go "ooh" and "ahh".

Its obvious that whipping boys on this board are without a miss, Bode, Shirley, Doughty and McGregor. Last year it used to be Clarke and Biglands who were added to that group.

Now these are the guys who have been integral parts of the team (at one time or another) that has made it to the 2 prelim finals in the last 2 years. This same Shirley that people LOVE to pick on has been a regular in our side for 3-4 years. He was getting a regular game even when Stenglein was still around. He must be doing something right to get a regular game AND finish top 10 in a B&F for a side that went on to play in a preliminary final.

Bode is another one that people just LOVE to bag for some reason. Sure he can burn the ball sometimes and he gets unfairly crusified because of it but FFS is there a better small forward at creating defensive pressure in the forward 50 in the AFL? This lad led our team in tackling last year from a forward pocket. He also kicked 30 odd goals and his defensive pressure has created so many other opportunities for his team mates. If he so average why does he get picked when ever fit? Because he is there to perform a certain role that is integral to the overall strategy and structure of the side. He is a little terrier that will not let that ball leave the forward 50 with ease. His pressure will make it easier for the rest of the players down the field.

Then there is the young one! Back in 2004 I have been super critical of him and his lack of courage at times but he has moved on from that to be one of the most courageous players wearing our jumper and he performs week in week out. He is Craigy's "Mr Versatility". He is getting thrown around from position to position and he keeps performing week in week out. He arguably had a career best year in 2006 and people now want to show him the door.

Yes the youngsters have to come into the calculations at one stage or another but they must EARN that spot. They WILL NOT and should NOT be given a game beacue they fall into a certain age bracket. If Bode, Shirley, Doughty, McGregor etcare so average then it shouldn't be too hard for these kids to take their spot.

Injuries, form and internal competition will take care of who plays and who misses out. No one has never gotten anything on a silver platter, they had to work hard for it. Even the champions of our club had to earn their games and push out others either through injuries, form etc...

These kids will get as much games and game time as they deserve. Its not as though the AFC are not prepared to play these kids. Maric got 8 games last year. A pretty decent return. Vince played in round 1 when he wasn't ready. We also gave debuts to Douglas and Porplyzia. Porplyzia played a pretty big role for us last year.

Its a long season, the kids will get their chance and when they do its up to them to grab hold of it and not let it go. Porplyzia got a chance last season and by the end of the year he got a hold of it that people just couldn't see him dropping out of the finals side.

The kids will get their chance without people wanting to demote players who bust their gut week in week out but have their limitations. No player is perfect. Even the great Roo has some flaws in his game that are still there after an unbelievable football career that will see him be a walk up into the football hall of fame.

 

[maccas_no1]

Man, I CAN'T feel the LOVE here!!!!

Why do people continually have to call out players who give their heart and sould for the jumper just because they might be the type of player they don't like or they might be in a certain age bracket?!

Here is a little fact. In a side that has 22 spots each week its practically impossible to have 22 stars. You need role players that will complement your stars and do the tough things that don't get noticed so your stars can do the flashy things that makes everyone go "ooh" and "ahh".

Its obvious that whipping boys on this board are without a miss, Bode, Shirley, Doughty and McGregor. Last year it used to be Clarke and Biglands who were added to that group.

Now these are the guys who have been integral parts of the team (at one time or another) that has made it to the 2 prelim finals in the last 2 years. This same Shirley that people LOVE to pick on has been a regular in our side for 3-4 years. He was getting a regular game even when Stenglein was still around. He must be doing something right to get a regular game AND finish top 10 in a B&F for a side that went on to play in a preliminary final.

Bode is another one that people just LOVE to bag for some reason. Sure he can burn the ball sometimes and he gets unfairly crusified because of it but FFS is there a better small forward at creating defensive pressure in the forward 50 in the AFL? This lad led our team in tackling last year from a forward pocket. He also kicked 30 odd goals and his defensive pressure has created so many other opportunities for his team mates. If he so average why does he get picked when ever fit? Because he is there to perform a certain role that is integral to the overall strategy and structure of the side. He is a little terrier that will not let that ball leave the forward 50 with ease. His pressure will make it easier for the rest of the players down the field.

Then there is the young one! Back in 2004 I have been super critical of him and his lack of courage at times but he has moved on from that to be one of the most courageous players wearing our jumper and he performs week in week out. He is Craigy's "Mr Versatility". He is getting thrown around from position to position and he keeps performing week in week out. He arguably had a career best year in 2006 and people now want to show him the door.

Yes the youngsters have to come into the calculations at one stage or another but they must EARN that spot. They WILL NOT and should NOT be given a game beacue they fall into a certain age bracket. If Bode, Shirley, Doughty, McGregor etcare so average then it shouldn't be too hard for these kids to take their spot.

Injuries, form and internal competition will take care of who plays and who misses out. No one has never gotten anything on a silver platter, they had to work hard for it. Even the champions of our club had to earn their games and push out others either through injuries, form etc...

These kids will get as much games and game time as they deserve. Its not as though the AFC are not prepared to play these kids. Maric got 8 games last year. A pretty decent return. Vince played in round 1 when he wasn't ready. We also gave debuts to Douglas and Porplyzia. Porplyzia played a pretty big role for us last year.

Its a long season, the kids will get their chance and when they do its up to them to grab hold of it and not let it go. Porplyzia got a chance last season and by the end of the year he got a hold of it that people just couldn't see him dropping out of the finals side.

The kids will get their chance without people wanting to demote players who bust their gut week in week out but have their limitations. No player is perfect. Even the great Roo has some flaws in his game that are still there after an unbelievable football career that will see him be a walk up into the football hall of fame.

Agree entirely, you pick your best 22 that week, that is subject to injuries/suspension etc.

A senior, proven player will get a game over a young unproven player, if they didnt I would say the senior player would be pretty peeved.

There have been alot of ridiculous statements made on this board over the summer of who should be playing and who shouldnt be playing, at the moment we have a group of senior players who have good AFL experience and we have a bunch of young players who will in time get their chance to rpove themselves. This is why I question what people on this board expect fromt he AFC this year when they are continually asking for more young players to be included in the side If that is the case you are rebuilding and turning over your list IMO, if you are intending on playing finals you play you best available 22 week in week out and only make changes where nessesary.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

C98, PC and Stiffy...good posts.

Don't misread me, i am NOT saying that Bode and Shirley are poor players. They do give their all and have played a valuable role in getting us to third position. If they are selected i am confident of what they will give to the side, which includes many positives.

I am simply thinking out loud on how we could gain that extra 5% in performance to become premiers (which is possible in 07 IMO). For me that includes giving players such as Knights, van Berlo, Porplyzia and Douglas greater roles from the start so that by finals time we have a stronger midfield. Unfortunately if you want these blokes to step up further it inevitably means some others may take on a diminished role. I have simply gone the extra step of naming names that could be in line for this but as Stiffy pragmatically (and rightly) said, injuries will often open the door for the young guys and then its all up to them.

 

[maccas_no1]

C98, PC and Stiffy...good posts.

Don't misread me, i am NOT saying that Bode and Shirley are poor players. They do give their all and have played a valuable role in getting us to third position. If they are selected i am confident of what they will give to the side, which includes many positives.

I am simply thinking out loud on how we could gain that extra 5% in performance to become premiers (which is possible in 07 IMO). For me that includes giving players such as Knights, van Berlo, Porplyzia and Douglas greater roles from the start so that by finals time we have a stronger midfield. Unfortunately if you want these blokes to step up further it inevitably means some others may take on a diminished role. I have simply gone the extra step of naming names that could be in line for this but as Stiffy pragmatically (and rightly) said, injuries will often open the door for the young guys and then its all up to them.

I like your theory, but who gives way to allow all those young players get into our best 22??? What makes NC and the match committee make that decision over aproven senior player??? What will be the aftermath after a loss due to having over looked a senior player to play an unproven player???

Maric, Meeson and Griffen wouldnt have had a chance to get an opportunity if Biglands hadnt of done his knee, but even that has seemed to have backfired because now Maric and Meeson are both on long term injuries themselves, Griffen will get a crack and think Griffen was further in his development as a player over both Maric and Meeson.

The midfeild is though one because when you think about it we have players such as Reilly, Mattner and Massie who really still are finding their feet in the midfeild, Johncock would be pushing for a midfeild role, so you would have to over look all four of those players who as I have said are still developing themselves to play the lieks of Knights, Douglas etc.

Van Berlo IMO is the only player right at the moment I would be playing week in week out.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

I like your theory, but who gives way to allow all those young players get into our best 22??? What makes NC and the match committee make that decision over aproven senior player??? What will be the aftermath after a loss due to having over looked a senior player to play an unproven player???

Maric, Meeson and Griffen wouldnt have had a chance to get an opportunity if Biglands hadnt of done his knee, but even that has seemed to have backfired because now Maric and Meeson are both on long term injuries themselves, Griffen will get a crack and think Griffen was further in his development as a player over both Maric and Meeson.

The midfeild is though one because when you think about it we have players such as Reilly, Mattner and Massie who really still are finding their feet in the midfeild, Johncock would be pushing for a midfeild role, so you would have to over look all four of those players who as I have said are still developing themselves to play the lieks of Knights, Douglas etc.

Van Berlo IMO is the only player right at the moment I would be playing week in week out.

Good questions. A young player should have good SANFL and/or pre-season form under their belt no question but in the end it would require a gutsy (and hopefully well-timed, smart) selection partly based on potential (as are all debut selections) over a current player. As to who gives way, i have listed my preferred team earlier in the post with all those players in (assuming Porp over McG for last spot). As for criticism after a loss...thats why the decision involves some courage, it will never be right all the time and it will take a season for the new mix to be a consistently better one.

Re the midfield players you mentioned, my team includes all of them except Massie. He is a good player who had an excellent 06 and i wouldn't mind him in the side at HBF but i reckon Torney just ahead of him, though this could easily change depending on match-ups (Torney a true defender who can play on last line, Massie a running midfield-style HBF). As for 'finding their feet' the players you mentioned have had plenty of time to establish themselves. As for Johncock, i see him as a burst player in the middle but not a consistent midfielder.

 

[maccas_no1]

Good questions. A young player should have good SANFL and/or pre-season form under their belt no question but in the end it would require a gutsy (and hopefully well-timed, smart) selection partly based on potential (as are all debut selections) over a current player. As to who gives way, i have listed my preferred team earlier in the post with all those players in (assuming Porp over McG for last spot). As for criticism after a loss...thats why the decision involves some courage, it will never be right all the time and it will take a season for the new mix to be a consistently better one.

Re the midfield players you mentioned, my team includes all of them except Massie. He is a good player who had an excellent 06 and i wouldn't mind him in the side at HBF but i reckon Torney just ahead of him, though this could easily change depending on match-ups (Torney a true defender who can play on last line, Massie a running midfield-style HBF). As for 'finding their feet' the players you mentioned have had plenty of time to establish themselves. As for Johncock, i see him as a burst player in the middle but not a consistent midfielder.

I agree Reilly and Mattner have had plenety of time, but also with our better midfeilders retiring over the next few years they will be required to lead the midfeild(that scares me to death) that is when Knights ,Porps and Douglas will really get their shot, look how long it took for Bock to establish himself, the first time I seen him in a trail game think it was 03 I thought holy crap who is this dud, now he is a greta player forward and back

 

[- PC -]

HBF but i reckon Torney just ahead of him, though this could easily change depending on match-ups (Torney a true defender who can play on last line, .

See this should be where you should be looking to introduce new players

I had left Torney out of my side, I think he is a good player but ( and this could be a ''second side'' syndrome occuring in me) I think you can slot a Doughty in his hbf spot and introduce one of your ''potentials'' on the bench.

While Torney is a true defender , he is to me , the weakest in the backline, admittedly a strong weakness. ie I dont think leaving him out will impact much

 

[rayven]

With a few more senior players back in the team any word on changes to gameplan?????

even if slight?

and I have a mate from Archards home town., they find it hard getting info on archard.

Anyone got any word on him and could possibly keep me updated so I can let my mate in Euchuca know?

 

[TheLeftFist8]

See this should be where you should be looking to introduce new players

I had left Torney out of my side, I think he is a good player but ( and this could be a ''second side'' syndrome occuring in me) I think you can slot a Doughty in his hbf spot and introduce one of your ''potentials'' on the bench.

While Torney is a true defender , he is to me , the weakest in the backline, admittedly a strong weakness. ie I dont think leaving him out will impact much

I agree PC...

My inclusion of Torney was purely based on Round 1 considerations. IF Essendon play Lloyd, Johns, Lucas and Hird up forward my match-ups would be Rutten, Bassett, Stevens, and Torney. (I don't think McGregor has the pace to go with any of those guys, so he would be FP/bench or omitted in my R1 side). Personally i think Torney would be a better defensive match-up for Hird than Doughty (though would be a great opportunity), Massie, VB, or any of the other youngsters. Against most other forward lines, i agree that Torney could easily make way for Doughty (or Massie) thus opening up another spot. Before analysing the opposition, my pre-pre-season side actually left Torney out and included another young-un.

 

[macca23]

With a few more senior players back in the team any word on changes to gameplan?????

even if slight?

and I have a mate from Archards home town., they find it hard getting info on archard.

Anyone got any word on him and could possibly keep me updated so I can let my mate in Euchuca know?

He's doing okay. He made the most of his time against Norwood, and the commentators praised him for many good things in the Melbourne match. Their comments were along the lines though that they think he is a bit too small to be an on-baller at AFL level,

What they did say though was that he has a good feel for the game and could operate as a small forward, virtually a Matthew Bode type role.

I think he's there really as an insurance policy for that role and will probably need either injuries or loss of form to be promoted to the mainlist and play.

Like the commentators, I feel that he would perform if given the opportunity, but that it might be hard for him to get that chance.

 

[- PC -]

Starting in the 5th at Morphetville...oops Alan Scott Racing Stables