Crunch time

[MC Extra Dollop]

As far as I'm concerned, this thread has generated some intelligent debate, by several posters whom I have the utmost respect for. So, if you want to take a post from a completely unrelated thread personally and bring it in here unnecessarily, I really couldn't care less.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Im a massive fan of Varcoe and i have been awhile. His skill's and pace are amazing and is usually pretty reliable in front of goals. His GF contribution was very important and i agree with the earlier post that had it of been Rioli then the papers would have gone ape poo....

But i do wish his disposal count would lift as TV getting 25 -35 posessions a match would go a long way to the Cats getting the win.

Hopefully a big, injury free preseason has him coming into the year full of confidence in his body and he can finally reach his full potential. Im sure his best is yet to come.

Me I couldn't care less if he gets less that twenty possessions. As long as whatever he does damages the opposition in some way - and it usually does - he's done his job. We all tend to get sucked into the 'huge possession count means great football' way of thinking from time to time, when emphasis on quality over quantity should be encouraged.

 

[marshhhhh]

I probably agree that his output could rise a little.
This year he averaged 16.21 disposals over 24 games, kicked 31 goals and laid 51 tackles.
To compare to a similar player, Stokeys averaged 20.05 disposals, kicked 29 goals and laid 70 tackles.

And to compare to a similar position player, albeit a freak, Stevie J averaged 22.35 disposals, kicked 50 goals and laid 84 tackles

I agree that you don't need to dominate games to contribute and make a difference to the final result, but Trav is definitely capable of taking his game up a notch.

 

[Vdubs]

I probably agree that his output could rise a little.
This year he averaged 16.21 disposals over 24 games, kicked 31 goals and laid 51 tackles.
To compare to a similar player, Stokeys averaged 20.05 disposals, kicked 29 goals and laid 70 tackles.

And to compare to a similar position player, albeit a freak, Stevie J averaged 22.35 disposals, kicked 50 goals and laid 84 tackles

I agree that you don't need to dominate games to contribute and make a difference to the final result, but Trav is definitely capable of taking his game up a notch.

Comparing (the quality of) Varcoe's stats to Stokes is an insult to Varcoe.

 

[CatFan79]

The times he "goes missing", has it ever cost us?

No because our guys that perform week after week pick up the load..

will no doubt be our best player

Possibly with a change of attitude and work rate, but I disagree.

Yes, I am very biased,

No, really?

 

[marshhhhh]

Comparing (the quality of) Varcoe's stats to Stokes is an insult to Varcoe.

Not comparing quality, just numbers

Definitely don't think he will ever be our best player.
Perhaps a vital cog in the team, but best?

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Not comparing quality, just numbers

Definitely don't think he will ever be our best player.
Perhaps a vital cog in the team, but best?

In my opinion, he has the ability. Which brings us back to my original point. If Gary Ablett had played out the rest of his career at a 2004-06 level, he would have been fondly remembered and universally respected by Geelong supporters (and he probably would have been a Cat for life). He was a quality player, one of our best, and maybe he would have got a b&f and an AA or two along the way. His teammates didn't buy it. They knew he had the potential to be so much more and they told him so. And I think Varcoe is at the 'Ablett-2006' stage of his career. Just because we've had unprecedented success as a team and he has been part of that doesn't mean there isn't tremendous room for individual improvement in Varcoe and many other established senior players in 2012.

 

[marshhhhh]

In my opinion, he has the ability. Which brings us back to my original point. If Gary Ablett had played out the rest of his career at a 2004-06 level, he would have been fondly remembered and universally respected by Geelong supporters (and he probably would have been a Cat for life). He was a quality player, one of our best, and maybe he would have got a b&f and an AA or two along the way. His teammates didn't buy it. They knew he had the potential to be so much more and they told him so. And I think Varcoe is at the 'Ablett-2006' stage of his career. Just because we've had unprecedented success as a team and he has been part of that doesn't mean there isn't tremendous room for individual improvement in Varcoe and many other established senior players in 2012.

So which other senior players are ready to take their game to the next level do you reckon?

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

So which other senior players are ready to take their game to the next level do you reckon?

Well, obviously all the players who have played between 1-30 games could fall under this category (besides Menzel). I think Stokes could have a career best year, if he gets more time in the midfield. It may take a career best year for Byrnes to keep his place and stay at the Cattery for 2013 and beyond. Varcoe is obviously one. Hawkins as well. Possibly Mackie. Then you've got Chapman, who can definitely improve on 2011, even if we're not expecting a career best year from him.

 

[marshhhhh]

Hawkins is still the one for me.
Expectation is going to be massive following his stellar finals series.
He is the player I am most excited to see come Round 1.

 

[Vdubs]

Well, obviously all the players who have played between 1-30 games could fall under this category (besides Menzel). I think Stokes could have a career best year, if he gets more time in the midfield. It may take a career best year for Byrnes to keep his place and stay at the Cattery for 2013 and beyond. Varcoe is obviously one. Hawkins as well. Possibly Mackie. Then you've got Chapman, who can definitely improve on 2011, even if we're not expecting a career best year from him.

Stokes had a career best year and did play more mid roles, and we have likely seen his very best already. He made some glaring errors in the GF, but his endeavour was first class. If he misses out next year, it won't be for lack of effort. Just better players may have passed him by.

All year, we've had to put up with the Varcoe bashers who claimed he should have been dropped-never was once!!, and that his style of play would cost us in an important final, and yet his best ever game was that GF, and he did some elite running in that last quarter when most Pies and some cats had already hit the wall.Crunch time?? Doubt it

I would hope that the whole team would want and need to perform at least as good as 2011, which if it happens, would almost guarantee us a great year. Improvements in some would be a bonus. No player is going to perform at their best ALL season, but a few encores next year from Tomahawk would go down very well.Again, he is a proven premiership player, so not exactly crunch time.The obvious ones remain Hogan, Byrnes maybe, Gillies, Simpson IF he gets a chance, and Stephenson--must be an instant success.

 

[Vdubs]

I'm not saying the veterans in the list have anything to prove, I'm saying that it may be Chapman and J Hunt's last years with the club, just like it was shaping up to be a swansong for Milburn, Ottens, Corey and Ling last year. None of them had anything left to prove either, they were clearly champions of the Geelong Football Club. But none of them would have been happy with 2010 from a personal perspective, or collectively.

Joel Corey looked awful in 2010, due to a range of factors, and his long-term prospects were up in the air. He responded by finishing second in the b&f. On this very board, we had an ongoing thread debating whether Ling should retain the captaincy in 2011, when he probably couldn't be guaranteed a spot in the first 22. Ottens and Milburn both had great seasons and only enhanced their legacies in 2011. That's all I'm saying about Chapman and Josh Hunt. They both probably had ordinary seasons overall, by their standards, and it would be great if they could respond like Ling and Corey did.

Varcoe? What is there left to prove? He has a chance to be elite; he's got the whole package. Most of us would have probably pencilled him in as one of our best five or six players by the end of the 2010 season, he was looking that good. He plays a consistent season and he'll be an All-Australian. It's really that simple. He has everything left to prove.

I disagree with regards to Dawson Simpson; if he doesn't see significant game time next year, he could start listening to offers from opposition clubs. There's plenty of teams that could use him. The difference now is we're one of them. You're right about Brown, but I would add a proviso: A few AFL games is fine, as long as he plays most (if not all) of the remainder of the season in the VFL. If he goes down with yet another season-ending injury, it's got to be extremely concerning for the club. Plenty of players in recent times have pulled the pin in their early twenties when the never-ending rehab from multiple injuries became too much for them. His ability is not in question, which i thought I made reasonably clear.

I think people are taking this thread the wrong way. I love all these players and anyone who pulls on a Geelong guernsey. I'm just saying it's a big year for all ten of these players, like it or not.

Perhaps we are swayed by the title "CRUNCH TIME"

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

I seriously do not understand why you would say it's crunch time for Varcoe in season 2012

If you actually checked his overall progress, he's improved each and every season and that's also including stats such as disposals. He's also contributing in goals assists but scoring just over 1 goal a game.

His final series campaign was fantastic although the QF was quiet but that was a physical slog of a game where there were no clear standouts & he provides so much more than the 16 touches every game.

I think it's maybe crunch time for a notable ex-Cat though Ablett needs to get his side into the finals going on 27....time isn't on his side

 

[marshhhhh]

I think it's maybe crunch time for a notable ex-Cat though Ablett needs to get his side into the finals going on 27....time isn't on his side

I'm quietly confident that Gaz has played in his last premiership

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I seriously do not understand why you would say it's crunch time for Varcoe in season 2012

If you actually checked his overall progress, he's improved each and every season and that's also including stats such as disposals. He's also contributing in goals assists but scoring just over 1 goal a game.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/T/Travis_Varcoe.html

2010
Kicks - 7.3
Marks - 3.6
Handballs - 8.7
Goals - 1.55
Tackles - 4.1


2011

Kicks - 7.8
Marks - 2.37
Handballs - 8.4
Goals - 1.29
Tackles - 2.12

He also finished higher in the best and fairest in 2010 than he did in 2011, despite missing several games. So, that's from the statistical perspective. Then, I'm going with my personal perspective which was that he was one of the best five or so players in the Geelong lineup by the end of 2010. He wasn't close to that in 2011.

Again...I'm not saying it's crunch time in the sense that he's in danger of being delisted, but in terms of him stepping up his game to being an elite player of the competition. He has all the tools to get to that level.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

16 possies in 2010 and in 2011 finished just over with 16.2.
He had an interrupted start to 2011 along with Wojak during the international rules series and he was subsequently on the back foot alike a couple of our boys from then on.

His shoulders have always been a major concern and this was the number 1 priority with the medical staff and by seasons end, they managed him absolutely perfectly.
Up until the midway point of the season...he was definitely behind from his previous year's form as rounds 1-12 he had 13½ touches, 2 marks, 1½ tackles & 13 goals.

Rounds 12-24, 15½ touches, 3 marks, 2 tackles & 14 goals.
With Trav, it's not always about the statistics but it's his defensive pressure and that crucial factor he brings in being able to draw defenders to open up the play for our players down the field.
Even you will admit that by the end of the season, Varcoe was gut running harder than at any stage of his career and although he didn't get on the end of alot of the play, he did help us win this years premiership due to those points above.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

I reckon it's fair to say that had he not have played in round 9 then we likely lose that match and of course his GF performance was magnificent and in our top 5 or so players on the day.

He's 23 going on 24 years but I reckon 2011 was his best season yet despite his previous years stats and he's definitely taken a step forward in his development like Hawkins has so 2012 there won't be any worries.

 

[you pick one]

Stokes had a career best year and did play more mid roles, and we have likely seen his very best already. He made some glaring errors in the GF, but his endeavour was first class. If he misses out next year, it won't be for lack of effort. Just better players may have passed him by.

.

First I've read of such errors.

Your as bad as PO, he had Stokes finished this time last year,on current form he would get a game in every side in the competition.
pencil him in for 18 plus next year and finals.(with out injury)

Me thinks we judge some players much to harshly here and yes someone will go past him and every other incumbent eventually,but if you look at his over all season this year the bench mark is quite high.

 

[nohairandfair]

First I've read of such errors.

Your as bad as PO, he had Stokes finished this time last year,on current form he would get a game in every side in the competition.
pencil him in for 18 plus next year and finals.(with out injury)

Me thinks we judge some players much to harshly here and yes someone will go past him and every other incumbent eventually,but if you look at his over all season this year the bench mark is quite high.

Stokes was very poor in the GF... blind Freddy could see that.
It was one of the more clutz-riddled games I've seen from the little bloke.

The final coup de grace was cluelessly smashing into a leading StevieJ to snuff out another shot on goal and knocking the wind out of himself.

If we had lost the GF he would be maligned, but we didn't so he is another premiership hero.

 

[winty]

First I've read of such errors.

Your as bad as PO, he had Stokes finished this time last year,on current form he would get a game in every side in the competition.
pencil him in for 18 plus next year and finals.(with out injury)

Me thinks we judge some players much to harshly here and yes someone will go past him and every other incumbent eventually,but if you look at his over all season this year the bench mark is quite high.

Have a look at Stokesy's kicking at goal in that game. He missed 3 or 4 shots he normally would've nailed.

As for Varcoe, he's a confidence player IMO. When his confidence is up, he can do anything, but when it's not, he tends to go missing, like he did mid-season.

Hopefully the grand final performances of Varcoe and Hawkins are a portent of how those two play in 2012.

 

[you pick one]

The final coup de grace was cluelessly smashing into a leading StevieJ to snuff out another shot on goal and knocking the wind out of himself. [/I]

I never knock a bloke who only has eyes for the ball.

Have a look at Stokesy's kicking at goal in that game. He missed 3 or 4 shots he normally would've nailed.

Kicked 1 goal 2 behinds hardly a hanging offense.
Where all excited over Tom Hawkins, and his kicking for goal was sub par,and Johno in the first final couldn't buy a goal.

Lets call a spade a spade and not just pick on Stokes.

 

[witsend]

Have a look at Stokesy's kicking at goal in that game. He missed 3 or 4 shots he normally would've nailed.

As for Varcoe, he's a confidence player IMO. When his confidence is up, he can do anything, but when it's not, he tends to go missing, like he did mid-season.

Hopefully the grand final performances of Varcoe and Hawkins are a portent of how those two play in 2012.

IMO we always overlook the possibility that players are given a role we are unaware of. Varcoe appears to be under instruction to MOT risk his shoulders unless absolutely necessary. I think it took him half a season to get the balance right. Also I wouldn't be surprised if he is told to constantly "attack space", thereby creating room for other players until we get clear possession, at which point he becomes a key link, carry and run player. This can make his possession counts almost irrelevant. Maybe he gets bagged for disappearing in a quarter when he's told to drag his man away from the corridor from time to time.
As for Stokes...severely under-rated imo, even in here. Is becoming very much an on-field leader in our F50 and very important structurally.

 

[nohairandfair]

I never knock a bloke who only has eyes for the ball.

There's something called presence and being in tune with your moment in space. The big occasion got the better of Stokesy and for the most part of the day he ran around like the proverbial chook without its head.

His endeavour and courage can't be questioned, but there seemed to be a disconnect between the brain and limbs on the day that turned him into a clanger machine with a 31% disposal efficiency.

However he had a good 2011 season and his overall output was okay. He just needs to deliver on the big stage as he has been found wanting more than once.

 

[you pick one]

There's something called presence and being in tune with your moment in space. The big occasion got the better of Stokesy and for the most part of the day he ran around like the proverbial chook without its head.

His endeavour and courage can't be questioned, but there seemed to be a disconnect between the brain and limbs on the day that turned him into a clanger machine with a 31% disposal efficiency.

However he had a good 2011 season and his overall output was good. He just needs to deliver on the big stage as he has been found wanting more than once.[/quote]

There is no doubt he had a shocker 2008 GF.

The Stokes Johnson clash, you could make an argument that Johno should have protected Stokes in that situation and Stokes would have taken an uncontested mark.

And if you want to talk presence, Selwood probable should have kicked the ball to Christensen who was streaming into the goal square.

Anyway we could go back and forward here for ever lets just see how many games he gets 2012.

 

[Vdubs]

First I've read of such errors.

Your as bad as PO, he had Stokes finished this time last year,on current form he would get a game in every side in the competition.
pencil him in for 18 plus next year and finals.(with out injury)

Me thinks we judge some players much to harshly here and yes someone will go past him and every other incumbent eventually,but if you look at his over all season this year the bench mark is quite high.

VERY selective editing on your part.