Cummins Overrated?

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Why is it so controversial to want to wait until he’s played abroad more before deciding? He has 14 wickets outside SA and Aus, which are similar style wickets suited to him.

Why is it so wrong to wait?
Why is that deserving of scorn?

He’s a good bowler. Relax.
Because he's single handedly carried us for months now. Without him we'd be toast. Not sure he's the bloke who needs to justify his plaudits
 

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Pykie

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Oh yeah, Cummins has a SR of 42 on western pitches bowling almost exclusively as a second change bowler.

I’m not overstating it, but it’s close to the best first 19 tests in the last 30 years and that includes Rabada.

Rabada's first 19 matches comprised of:

India (Away)
England (Home)
Australia (Away)
Sri Lanka (Home)
New Zealand (Away)


He had 82 wickets @ 24.56 after 19 tests and they were almost exclusively all played in South Africa, Australia & New Zealand.
 
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Because he's single handedly carried us for months now. Without him we'd be toast. Not sure he's the bloke who needs to justify his plaudits
I’m not saying he’s crud though. I freely acknowledge and enjoy that’s he’s a very good bowler.

I just don’t agree that he’s world class is all, and if and when he shows he can do well in away tours he’s yet to experience I’ll say it’s premature.
 

PhatBoy

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I’m not saying he’s crud though. I freely acknowledge and enjoy that’s he’s a very good bowler.

I just don’t agree that he’s world class is all, and if and when he shows he can do well in away tours he’s yet to experience I’ll say it’s premature.

Using that logic you can’t say that Kane Williamson or Trent Boult have been world class over the last two years (they’ve played one away series in that time roughly).
 
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Using that logic you can’t say that Kane Williamson or Trent Boult have been world class over the last two years (they’ve played one away series in that time roughly).
Now you’re twisting things. Both of those HAVE played in almost all countries over their careers. **** your two year random time frame

No Windies, Pakistan, NZ, Eng away at all for Cummins. I want to see how he fares there first.
 

PhatBoy

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Now you’re twisting things. Both of those HAVE played in almost all countries over their careers. **** your two year random time frame

No Windies, Pakistan, NZ, Eng away at all for Cummins. I want to see how he fares there first.
My point being, that if someone took, say, 30 wickets in a series, you’d say ‘wow. That’s a world class performance’ regardless of where it took place.

I’ll freely admit that despite his downhill skier attributes, David Warner has been world class when he’s at home. He goes away and it doesn’t often happen.

Likewise, you wouldn’t look at Williamson’s figures from the last two years and say ‘wow, he has been okay but I wouldn’t say he’s been world class because it’s mostly been at home.’

So why then would you look at Cummins and say he hasn’t been world class purely because he’s mostly played at home?

Yes, if he were to battle overseas his whole career, at the end of it all you might say he’s been found wanting but until such time as that happens, he can only play where he’s scheduled to play, and every time he’s done that he HAS, unequivocally, been absolutely world class.
 

Pykie

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My point being, that if someone took, say, 30 wickets in a series, you’d say ‘wow. That’s a world class performance’ regardless of where it took place.

I’ll freely admit that despite his downhill skier attributes, David Warner has been world class when he’s at home. He goes away and it doesn’t often happen.

Likewise, you wouldn’t look at Williamson’s figures from the last two years and say ‘wow, he has been okay but I wouldn’t say he’s been world class because it’s mostly been at home.’

So why then would you look at Cummins and say he hasn’t been world class purely because he’s mostly played at home?

Yes, if he were to battle overseas his whole career, at the end of it all you might say he’s been found wanting but until such time as that happens, he can only play where he’s scheduled to play, and every time he’s done that he HAS, unequivocally, been absolutely world class.
I wonder what he thinks of Rabada then...

Never played WI, Pakistan, Bangladesh away.

Has 2 tests in India averaging 55.
Has 2 test in New Zealand averaging 39
Has 3 tests in England at an average just under 29.

With 21 out of his 35 tests being played in South Africa.


I hope he can’t rate him yet either....
 

to1994

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Why is it so controversial to want to wait until he’s played abroad more before deciding? He has 14 wickets outside SA and Aus, which are similar style wickets suited to him.

Why is it so wrong to wait?
Why is that deserving of scorn?

He’s a good bowler. Relax.
The only country that's really a Test is England, since bowlers seem like a shoe in to be good over there like Hazlewood and Bird and it doesn't happen so fair enough, it'll be a good test to see how he goes there.

For the others though, really? He's already performed in India in what were very unhelpful bowling condition, why is the UAE going to be any different? NZ if anything will only benefit his bowling style and I love the Windies but come on, performing there isn't some test of conditions and quality he needs to overcome.

He's done it all where it matters and if he stays fit there's no question he's going to be our best bowler for years to come.
 
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My point being, that if someone took, say, 30 wickets in a series, you’d say ‘wow. That’s a world class performance’ regardless of where it took place.

I’ll freely admit that despite his downhill skier attributes, David Warner has been world class when he’s at home. He goes away and it doesn’t often happen.

Likewise, you wouldn’t look at Williamson’s figures from the last two years and say ‘wow, he has been okay but I wouldn’t say he’s been world class because it’s mostly been at home.’

So why then would you look at Cummins and say he hasn’t been world class purely because he’s mostly played at home?

Yes, if he were to battle overseas his whole career, at the end of it all you might say he’s been found wanting but until such time as that happens, he can only play where he’s scheduled to play, and every time he’s done that he HAS, unequivocally, been absolutely world class.
No. Warner wasn’t world class because he was by and large shit away from home.

I define world class as being someone who can consistently perform to a high level home and away in a wide variety of scenarios and conditions.

I just want to see how that goes first.
The only country that's really a Test is England, since bowlers seem like a shoe in to be good over there like Hazlewood and Bird and it doesn't happen so fair enough, it'll be a good test to see how he goes there.

For the others though, really? He's already performed in India in what were very unhelpful bowling condition, why is the UAE going to be any different? NZ if anything will only benefit his bowling style and I love the Windies but come on, performing there isn't some test of conditions and quality he needs to overcome.

He's done it all where it matters and if he stays fit there's no question he's going to be our best bowler for years to come.
He may very well be our best for years to come. Largely beside the point
 

Pykie

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No. Warner wasn’t world class because he was by and large shit away from home.

I define world class as being someone who can consistently perform to a high level home and away in a wide variety of scenarios and conditions.

I just want to see how that goes first.

He may very well be our best for years to come. Largely beside the point
So you are going to judge him on tests that might form roughly 5% of his total test career? Against 3 of the smallest test nations there are?

We play NZ, WI, Pakistan away on 3-4 year rotations, it’s likely he may only ever play 2 tests in each of those places in his entire career, given it could be 6-8 years until he could tour even one of them theoretically for a second time.

I don’t mind you saying wait until after the Ashes, but the other stuff is garbage.

Name me a current “world class” fast bowler then? because I sure as hell can pick apart your selection criteria with every single top bowler getting around at the moment.

Steyn: never really fired in Australia and England. Averages close to 30 in both.

Philander: Shit in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, only ever played 1 test in India, avoids the SC like the plague. Shit record in Australia saved from being even shitter getting most of his wickets on a Hobart greentop.

Rabada: Shit in NZ, England. Crap in his first few tests in India, Barely traveled tbh and pretty ordinary away from home in general.

Anderson: Do we really need to go here? Absolutely terrible record in Australia, only eclipsed by his record in Sout Africa. Shit in India and NZ. Averages almost 10 runs more home vs away and 20 balls higher SR.

Southee: Averages 50 in Aus, 48 in South Africa and 34 in England, I think I can stop there.

Abbas: Only played in a handful of countries, got slaughtered in South Africa.

Holder: probably best not to go into his Aus, NZ, SAF, English records, they aren't pretty.

Broad: Terrible record in Australia and India (Subcontinent in general is 50-80)

Boult: Absolutely hopeless anywhere other than NZ or England where he's taken 70% of his wickets. Averages 40+ in South Africa, 34 in Aus, 38 in India, 30+ in both WI and UAE.

Wagner: Pretty much crap everywhere, even then, his NZ isn't that great anymore.

Roach: Smashed in Australia and India, not much better in England.


Thats most of the ICC's best bowlers of the last 10 years, so who's world class in that lot?
 
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So you are going to judge him on tests that might form roughly 5% of his total test career? Against 3 of the smallest test nations there are?

We play NZ, WI, Pakistan away on 3-4 year rotations, it’s likely he may only ever play 2 tests in each of those places in his entire career, given it could be 6-8 years until he could tour even one of them theoretically for a second time.

I don’t mind you saying wait until after the Ashes, but the other stuff is garbage.

Name me a current “world class” fast bowler then? because I sure as hell can pick apart your selection criteria with every single top bowler getting around at the moment.

Steyn: never really fired in Australia and England. Averages close to 30 in both.

Philander: Shit in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, only ever played 1 test in India, avoids the SC like the plague. Shit record in Australia saved from being even shitter getting most of his wickets on a Hobart greentop.

Rabada: Shit in NZ, England. Crap in his first few tests in India, Barely traveled tbh and pretty ordinary away from home in general.

Anderson: Do we really need to go here? Absolutely terrible record in Australia, only eclipsed by his record in Sout Africa. Shit in India and NZ. Averages almost 10 runs more home vs away and 20 balls higher SR.

Boult: Absolutely hopeless anywhere other than NZ or England where he's taken 70% of his wickets. Averages 40+ in South Africa, 34 in Aus, 38 in India, 30+ in both WI and UAE.


Thats most of the ICC's best bowlers of the last 10 years, so who's world class in that lot?
tl;dr

Let’s move on this has got out of hand, like every other conversation that the ******* kram starts.
 

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Pykie

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tl;dr

Let’s move on this has got out of hand, like every other conversation that the ******* kram starts.
I'll simplify it for you.

There isn't a fast bowler in the last 15 years that falls into your "world class criteria"

The only one in the last 40 years is probably Glenn McGrath, who has just about the best all-round fast bowling record in history.
 
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I'll simplify it for you.

There isn't a fast bowler in the last 15 years that falls into your "world class criteria"

The only one in the last 40 years is probably Glenn McGrath, who has just about the best all-round fast bowling record in history.
Which is where this has morphed into more than was intended.

I’ve said 3 times now he’s a very good bowler but muppets can’t leave that be. He has 14 wickets not on pace/bounce frinedly conditions. Let’s see how that goes first. That’s all I said but everything has to be jumped on.

Geez.
 

Pykie

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No. Warner wasn’t world class because he was by and large shit away from home.

I define world class as being someone who can consistently perform to a high level home and away in a wide variety of scenarios and conditions.

I just want to see how that goes first.

He may very well be our best for years to come. Largely beside the point
You need to probably need to clarify your comment further, he has as good a record as some batsman away from home in some respects.

His record is phenomenal in South Africa, UAE and Bangladesh.

His average of 38 isn't diabolical in England.

It's terrible in India, SL, WI.

Even Steve Smith averages only 43 in England

Some others:

Sangakarra 41
Kholi 36
Ponting 41
Hussey 31
Williamson 30
Clarke 39



I think you need to get your head around the fact that most players (even the best) struggle in more than 1 or 2 countries.

Averaging 60 in your home tests with a SR near 80 and very similar in almost half of the other away locations probably makes you world class no matter how shit those other records are. Sure he might not be an all time great because of some of those away records, but he's definitely one of the best batsmen in the world currently.
 
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PhatBoy

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So you are going to judge him on tests that might form roughly 5% of his total test career? Against 3 of the smallest test nations there are?

We play NZ, WI, Pakistan away on 3-4 year rotations, it’s likely he may only ever play 2 tests in each of those places in his entire career, given it could be 6-8 years until he could tour even one of them theoretically for a second time.

I don’t mind you saying wait until after the Ashes, but the other stuff is garbage.

Name me a current “world class” fast bowler then? because I sure as hell can pick apart your selection criteria with every single top bowler getting around at the moment.

Steyn: never really fired in Australia and England. Averages close to 30 in both.

Philander: Shit in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, only ever played 1 test in India, avoids the SC like the plague. Shit record in Australia saved from being even shitter getting most of his wickets on a Hobart greentop.

Rabada: Shit in NZ, England. Crap in his first few tests in India, Barely traveled tbh and pretty ordinary away from home in general.

Anderson: Do we really need to go here? Absolutely terrible record in Australia, only eclipsed by his record in Sout Africa. Shit in India and NZ. Averages almost 10 runs more home vs away and 20 balls higher SR.

Southee: Averages 50 in Aus, 48 in South Africa and 34 in England, I think I can stop there.

Abbas: Only played in a handful of countries, got slaughtered in South Africa.

Holder: probably best not to go into his Aus, NZ, SAF, English records, they aren't pretty.

Broad: Terrible record in Australia and India (Subcontinent in general is 50-80)

Boult: Absolutely hopeless anywhere other than NZ or England where he's taken 70% of his wickets. Averages 40+ in South Africa, 34 in Aus, 38 in India, 30+ in both WI and UAE.

Wagner: Pretty much crap everywhere, even then, his NZ isn't that great anymore.

Roach: Smashed in Australia and India, not much better in England.


Thats most of the ICC's best bowlers of the last 10 years, so who's world class in that lot?

There is one bowler in this list who sticks out like dogs balls.

Steyn’s lower career marks in England and Australia would be considered good all-inclusive averages for most bowlers
 

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There is one bowler in this list who sticks out like dogs balls.

Steyn’s lower career marks in England and Australia would be considered good all-inclusive averages for most bowlers
Agreed, but it still doesn't fit his original criteria.

Steyn is definitely the best since McGrath, but McGrath's all around record isn't mortal.

I mean, he averages under 23 in every major test nation other than Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

His record in England is broken considering it's an away nation, it's much better than Jimmy Anderson's.....

He got 33 wkts @ 21.30 from 2 tours to India......
 

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Agreed, but it still doesn't fit his original criteria.

Steyn is definitely the best since McGrath, but McGrath's all around record isn't mortal.

I mean, he averages under 23 in every major test nation other than Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

His record in England is broken considering it's an away nation, it's much better than Jimmy Anderson's.....

He got 33 wkts @ 21.30 from 2 tours to India......
God that bugger was a freak. Such control is a mighty asset.
 

Pykie

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He’s better than McGrath. His strike rate ensures it. And that’s saying something.

I think the main difference in strike rate is because he played on mainly juiced up South African pitches his entire career for a SR of 39 vs McGrath playing on Australian roads at a SR of 54. Steyn's SR in 2 tours of Australia @ 50 is probably evidence of this.

South Africa in general is a lot more fast bowler friendly than Aus, I think we can all see that with someone like Philander's record.

McGrath annihilates him statistically in 80% of the other countries on the planet.

Steyn to his credit may be the only fast bowler in history with a better record than McGrath in India, again that's saying something. MCGrath has him pretty much everywhere else though.
 

PhatBoy

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I think the main difference in strike rate is because he played on mainly juiced up South African pitches his entire career for a SR of 39 vs McGrath playing on Australian roads at a SR of 54. Steyn's SR in 2 tours of Australia @ 50 is probably evidence of this.

South Africa in general is a lot more fast bowler friendly than Aus, I think we can all see that with someone like Philander's record.

McGrath annihilates him statistically in 80% of the other countries on the planet.

Steyn to his credit may be the only fast bowler in history with a better record than McGrath in India, again that's saying something. MCGrath has him pretty much everywhere else though.
Covered everywhere else for strike rate or just average? McGrath debuted in 1993 btw. Australian pitches were nowhere near as flat in that period as they have been this century, 03-15 in particular. If I want control in any situation with a fair chance of getting a wicket, I take McGrath. If I just want wickets, I take Steyn every time
 

Pykie

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Covered everywhere else for strike rate or just average? McGrath debuted in 1993 btw. Australian pitches were nowhere near as flat in that period as they have been this century, 03-15 in particular. If I want control in any situation with a fair chance of getting a wicket, I take McGrath. If I just want wickets, I take Steyn every time
I'm not going to argue to much, I love both of them like my children. Steyn is my favourite cricketer of the last
 

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I don't know how one cannot call Cummins as world class.

I'll prefer bowlers according to different conditions. I'll select guys like Anderson, Broad, Kumar, Philander or Boult on a green seamer. Yadav, Shami, Starc, Gabriel, etc., on low bouncing or flat wickets.

But if you're not going to tell me the condition of the pitch and ask me to select a team, apart from Steyn who's on his last legs, from the younger bunch, Rabada, Cummins and Bumrah will be my bowling attack as they have the most tools to succeed on a seaming wicket, flat wicket or a quick and bouncy wicket imo.
 

Pykie

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Covered everywhere else for strike rate or just average? McGrath debuted in 1993 btw. Australian pitches were nowhere near as flat in that period as they have been this century, 03-15 in particular. If I want control in any situation with a fair chance of getting a wicket, I take McGrath. If I just want wickets, I take Steyn every time
McGrath has a better strike rate in England, New Zealand, UAE and WI. Steyn takes the rest.

A lower average is a direct correlation of a lower strike rate. The fact McGrath has a lower average despite having a much higher strike rate in most area's is pretty telling. With most of these countries it basically took McGrath an over longer to get a wicket, but he would keep a lot tighter. Steyn went at close to 4 an over in a bunch of countries. McGrath basically never got dominated, ever, when it all averaged out. There's something to be said for that.

I'm not going to argue too much, I love both of them. Steyn is my favorite cricketer of the last 15 years.
 
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