Cummins Overrated?

PhatBoy

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I'm not going to argue to much, I love both of them like my children. Steyn is my favourite cricketer of the last
Fair enough, not debating to be a c*** by the way, if I picked a world XI of players I’d seen McGrath would be one of the first picked as well - just that I’d pick Steyn before him. Maybe I’m influenced by the old Lara adage that he rated McGrath very highly but felt that if he wanted, he could outlast him, whereas Wasim who he’s always said was the best he faced, could find ways to get him out that didn’t prey on his patience - there was always one with his name on it.
 

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Pykie

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Ambrose had a pretty decent record across the world too.

Probably didn't play as much matches in asia like others though.
Yep.

Never played in India, barely played in Sri Lanka and had 1 tour of Pakistan.

His record when he did play in the SC is awesome though.

On the flip side he barely got to play in South Africa either, can you imagine Curtley on a modern Newlands or Wanderers pitch? The only time he played there he was 36 years old in his 3rd last test and both pitches played a lot different in the 90's to their current state.
 
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PhatBoy

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I don't know how one cannot call Cummins as world class.

I'll prefer bowlers according to different conditions. I'll select guys like Anderson, Broad, Kumar, Philander or Boult on a green seamer. Yadav, Shami, Starc, Gabriel, etc., on low bouncing or flat wickets.

But if you're not going to tell me the condition of the pitch and ask me to select a team, apart from Steyn who's on his last legs, from the younger bunch, Rabada, Cummins and Bumrah will be my bowling attack as they have the most tools to succeed on a seaming wicket, flat wicket or a quick and bouncy wicket imo.
Outstanding post.
 

PhatBoy

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Yep.

Never played in India, barely played in Sri Lanka and had 1 tour of Pakistan.

His record when he did play in the SC is awesome though.
With his assets I don’t think he’d have struggled a hell of a lot if he played there more. Height combats the low bounce, his raw speed at his peak combats the pace of the surfaces, and he had enough tricks with the ball to move it more than most of there was a tiny bit on offer.
 

Pykie

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With his assets I don’t think he’d have struggled a hell of a lot if he played there more. Height combats the low bounce, his raw speed at his peak combats the pace of the surfaces, and he had enough tricks with the ball to move it more than most of there was a tiny bit on offer.
I don't doubt it at all.

Courtney Walsh got 43 wkts @ 19 in India.
 
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Also get the feeling Cummins hasn't even hit his peak in bowling or batting. Give him the five year contract FFS CA it's the least you could do. His body is filling out now too he looks like a tank. Can you imagine him in England?? He will absolutely annihilate those smug pri*ks... Richardson too .... Will be great to see roots face when we win the world cup and the ashes on his home patch. The English media have already labeled us the worst ashes touring team ever.. that'll bite them on the arse
 

PhatBoy

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Yeah I think it will take more than Cummins.

The reason england have been winning a lot lately (prior to running into the Maroon blitzkrieg of course) is because their batsmen have just been doing enough, and their bowlers have been outstanding.

I’m certain Cummins will take a heap of wickets in England and I would only back Root and Bairstow to make regular runs, with Stokes and Butler making 2-3 good contributions - the rest of the top 7 I think will be hopeless.
But fortunately for England, Anderson, Broad, Woakes, stokes, and unbelievably, Moeen Ali who seems to have forgotten which end of the bat to hold, will probably have little trouble taking 20 wickets in most tests.
 

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LukeParkerno1

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Yeah I think it will take more than Cummins.

The reason england have been winning a lot lately (prior to running into the Maroon blitzkrieg of course) is because their batsmen have just been doing enough, and their bowlers have been outstanding.

I’m certain Cummins will take a heap of wickets in England and I would only back Root and Bairstow to make regular runs, with Stokes and Butler making 2-3 good contributions - the rest of the top 7 I think will be hopeless.
But fortunately for England, Anderson, Broad, Woakes, stokes, and unbelievably, Moeen Ali who seems to have forgotten which end of the bat to hold, will probably have little trouble taking 20 wickets in most tests.
Both batting lineups are pretty pedestrian. We will have Smith, they will have Root. The rest could fall like ten pins. The problem we have is our batting is worse! I mean we couldn't even get a century against Sri Lanka!
 

PhatBoy

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No he isn’t. McGrath’s strike rate is only worse because he tied the batsmen down. Steyn was more erratic.
Your erratic is most people’s attacking.
McGrath didn’t deliberately have a higher strike rate or something. He didn’t have the penetration of Steyn. He had better control and patience, no argument, but that doesn’t make Steyn some scattergun who just runs up and chucks it. As someone said recently, he has basically spent his entire career doing everything James Anderson does, only 10-15km faster.
 

Lebbo73

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Your erratic is most people’s attacking.
McGrath didn’t deliberately have a higher strike rate or something. He didn’t have the penetration of Steyn. He had better control and patience, no argument, but that doesn’t make Steyn some scattergun who just runs up and chucks it. As someone said recently, he has basically spent his entire career doing everything James Anderson does, only 10-15km faster.
I’ve never said that. Only that McGrath was better.
Btw, McGrath nearly always got Lara and Tendulkar out when it mattered most. World Cups in must win games. In critical times of a Test.
 

PhatBoy

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I’ve never said that. Only that McGrath was better.
Btw, McGrath nearly always got Lara and Tendulkar out when it mattered most. World Cups in must win games. In critical times of a Test.
We aren’t discussion one day cricket so I don’t see your point. Steyn has stood up at every juncture of his career. He’s won his side tests basically everywhere against everyone.

How many visiting players do you recall standing up and winning their team matches on the biggest test stage there is? (Boxing Day at Melbourne).

Steyn did it - twice, five wickets each innings. Three times really if you count his 70 in the same game.
He won them a test against Australia with a burst of 4 for nothing at port Elizabeth as well. He’s done it in India. Twice.

You can argue who was better all you want, that’s fine - I can respect anyone who would vote for McGrath because he was an all time great bowler.

But there’s no point trying to pick holes in steyn’s record in test cricket because, quite simply, there aren’t any.
 

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We aren’t discussion one day cricket so I don’t see your point. Steyn has stood up at every juncture of his career. He’s won his side tests basically everywhere against everyone.

How many visiting players do you recall standing up and winning their team matches on the biggest test stage there is? (Boxing Day at Melbourne).

Steyn did it - twice, five wickets each innings. Three times really if you count his 70 in the same game.
He won them a test against Australia with a burst of 4 for nothing at port Elizabeth as well. He’s done it in India. Twice.

You can argue who was better all you want, that’s fine - I can respect anyone who would vote for McGrath because he was an all time great bowler.

But there’s no point trying to pick holes in steyn’s record in test cricket because, quite simply, there aren’t any.
I ain’t picking holes. I’m telling you who was better.
 

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Donald was the one we all wanted to see when we let them play again. It was a pretty pedestrian side outside of him, sanctions had had the desired effect on the quality of their cricket.
They were a good side from the get go when they came back in. Probably top 4 behind the windies and us, and probably at least as good as Pakistan.
 

PhatBoy

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Yeah there were a lot of quality bowlers still floating about, just none that could get fully fit or in the case of De Villiers, he was a bit too deep into his career. Brett Schultz is one of the great what-ifs of modern cricket.
 

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They hadn't really caught up with the modern game as it was then. I saw a couple of days of the Newlands Test against India in their first series back and it was proper boring. South Africa's top four was Hudson, Wessels, Cronje and Peter Kirsten. It didn’t strike much fear in bowling attacks, nor did it raise the hopes of much dashing stroke play.
 

PhatBoy

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They hadn't really caught up with the modern game as it was then. I saw a couple of days of the Newlands Test against India in their first series back and it was proper boring. South Africa's top four was Hudson, Wessels, Cronje and Peter Kirsten. It didn’t strike much fear in bowling attacks, nor did it raise the hopes of much dashing stroke play.
Their batting was indeed very boring, Cronje and Cullinan started to change that a little bit
 

The Passenger

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Donald didn't play Test cricket until he was 25, he would be up there with McGrath, Walsh and Anderson if politics had allowed it.
I would hope to the general public Donald is considered above Anderson.

Anderson is undoubtedly brilliant, but his performances outside of England have to knock him down a few pegs.
 

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I would hope to the general public Donald is considered above Anderson.

Anderson is undoubtedly brilliant, but his performances outside of England have to knock him down a few pegs.
People forget how he and Pollock ran through us in that 99 World Cup semi, we all remember Warne and that last over but those two bowled beautifully that day.
 
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