Dan Collins

[western royboy]

Well that's what Collins should be doing. What makes you think he is giving some people a free pass?

My perception, (right or wrong) is that we have thrown out a lot of the good stuff that was trademark of the era under Matthews. The beauty about his appointment was when he came in was from day one after reviewing the debacle of '98 was.

The Players will play
The Coaches will coach
The Adminstrators will administer

And NEVER will one interfere with the other because if they do they will be gone!

It's beauty is in it's simplicity.

In trying to create his own stamp, it appears Vossy has determined a total clean out was necessary and after one year on the job discarded a lot of the senior assistants with knowledge to be replaced by a group from the worst performing club in the comp.

Again I will refer to Leading Teams because I know we were working with them in '08 and there was some very good signs coming from the player group in terms of development and accountability. The great thing about the LT model is that if you adopt it, it's all or nothing ie. the total organisation.

The departure of Leigh would appear to coincide with the departure of LT. Dan Collins arrival woud appear to be the replacement for that. Like the paddlepop he is not responsible for our failure this year but i'm confident had we still beeen working with LT, our history for this year would be significantly different.

A lot of posters on this forum have questioned what does the club stand for at the minute?

I can't answer - I don't know anymore - I should but I don't.

This problem is not only Dan Collins related, it's the total club from Tony Kelly down. We appear to have zero accountability across the board.

Just my perception.

 

[whatboutbob]

My concerns about Dan have been documented elsewhere, as has my intense dislike of muck-raking journos.

As others have noted there's not much in the way of evidence in that article and these days where there's smoke there's not necessarily fire, but simply a gossip-hungry media and public pumping away at a smoke machine (case in point: Fev BBQ rumours).

I do agree that Change Management is typically not the smoothest of processes. Under-performers are going to get their noses out of joint, but that should not white-ant the organisation if managed effectively. However looking at the only metrics that really counts - on-field performance and effort, the team does not appear to be a cohesive unit. That does leave one questioning the managers.

The whisper that probably concerns me most, if true, in that article is McRae's possible departure - not that he's leaving but that he is leaving so soon after being recruited. That would suggest to me that the club's recruitment process is flawed.

As for the likes of Fletch and Lambert - while admittedly unfamiliar with their KPIs, as an outsider I think one would be hard-pressed to suggest that they've excelled in their roles.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Lambert could be a huge loss. He is extremely popular with the players as he is their Welfare Manager.

There was a lot of dissent when Shane Johnson left, and it will happen again if Lambert goes.

 

[acuguy]

So he can concentrate on coaching.

Who is the boss then? I know when i go to work as an employee if i know who the boss is, i know they are the ones who make the ultimate decision, i at least know the lay of the land and the area in which i can operate.

 

[Stocka]

You can't help but think that things have become a complete clusterf*** at the Lions.

The situation is starting to remind me of St.Kilda's woes, when they went from Watson to Blight and then to Thomas and then his subsequent axing. Different situation, but a very similar vibe with a lot of unrest questionable decisions.

 

[acuguy]

My concern is we have gone down the razor gang path. Vossy has made many statements regarding what are non negotiables at the club in the media.

The talk has been finals to winning, to being competitive and now players not meeting the standards of what is required to be at the club. The snowball has to end, you can use KPI's, stats or whatever you want but until the players unite and take ownership and believe, we are wasting our time.

 

[western royboy]

You can't help but think that things have become a complete clusterf*** at the Lions.

The situation is starting to remind me of St.Kilda's woes, when they went from Watson to Blight and then to Thomas and then his subsequent axing. Different situation, but a very similar vibe with a lot of unrest questionable decisions.

You are close but you missed one link in the chain. Saints played off in '97 againt the Crows and lost in the final 10 minutes. If Spida plays they win. '98 they finish 4th but fail to meet expectations. Stan Alves had introduced Leading Teams (the first AFL club to do so). As part of the 360 degree feedback the players assessed Stan. President used that feedback to get rid of Stan and install Tim Watson as coach. Leading Teams also got the arse.

Result - implosion. Playing group lost their role in the decision making process and went from being involved to simpy being told what to do. They lost their buy in, becae disjointed and played as individuals.

I am seeing similarities here....unfortunately.

 

[Don Logan]

Extrapolating what Vossie said at this morning's media call.

The players aren't enjoying being told a few 'home truths' (by DC) about their performances of late and some have become a tad precious.

Others may read into it differently. A bit of friction between the coach and Hammo as well both claiming they weren't fully aware of their repsective roles.

 

[POBT]

Re "poking around": surely this is what journos do. With the worst will in the world this article wasn't just dreamt up out of thin air unless journalistic ethics are entirely absent.

I totally support investigative style of journalism. It is what makes the media so important. I object to publication of inferences and rumours that are not supported by proof. The article today contains facts, but it is not supportive of the inferences that are being made. That doesn't pass muster.

Re "quotes from current players": you know and I know this is never going to be possible

If the place is leaking, you can be damned sure the players are talking. Journos don't have to name their sources. This happens all the time. If Hammo had said "current Lion who does not wish to be named", then I would give the story more credibility. I don't believe Hammo would invent sources. If he said he has spoken to a former Lion, then I believe him. What I am saying is that I don't see what relevance a quote from a former player has. That is very tenuous evidence.

Re "direct quotes from asst coaches who have left": again this is a most unrealistic expectation. Any feedback will be off the record as there would be no value added to bagging someone in this context.

This is a totally realistic expectation. Who else can verify the story that Collins played a part in the decision of the assistant coaches to leave? He is required to have sources in order to be able to print a story. Where is he getting his information from? If he can't prove it, he shouldn't print it. He doesn't even pretend to have a source on the "Collins was a reason the assistant coaches left". Again I say that he is trying to get us to believe that Collins was a reason for the assistants leaving but he won't come out and say it. Why? Because he has no proof or his proof is insufficient. It doesn't stop him from tryint to paint a picture for us though.

Re the "iceberg" principle: I don't assume that the journo knows more than he has published. Probably the opposite in fact. But I do think that something pretty substantial is happening to so badly affect team dynamics and we don't know a thing about it.

Tassie, I agree with that last statement. We feel that there's something wrong and I don't doubt that there's a problem. But it shouldn't mean that we put 2 and 2 together and get 5. We can't jump at every rumour, every unsubstantiated "journalistic" article. We need to critically analyse the information we receive. In my books, Hammo's article doesn't pass muster in terms of something that we should be relying on. Cause for concern? Yep - quite possibly. But we need more than that.

 

[whatboutbob]

(Lambert) is extremely popular with the players as he is their Welfare Manager.

That was my impression. It may just be a lack of fanfare, but while off-field development has been trumpeted at many other clubs the Lions players seem to largely only publicly discuss their mad ping-pong and online gaming skillz.

 

[POBT]

From the club website.

“The blames, excuses, externalising … all that is a diversion to me,” Voss said.

“I would hope that every single person in some form is unhappy about the way we are going at the moment.”

 

[Hollow Knight]

Not sure why the club had to publicly address this on their website.

If it isn't true, you are only giving credibility/oxygen to it.

Was also baffled why they addressed the silly fev BBQ rumours too.

Lack of a cohesive direction and purpose.

 

[Tassie4ever]

Re POBT's response above: we obviously aren't poles apart.

The penny dropped with me during the Tigers game when the only blokes having a dip were the trainees- Rockliff and Banfield. The rest were pathetic- actually, this gives pathetic a bad name.

This effort was simply not acceptable on any level- it took us back to the late 90's.

The thing is we started off the year with high hopes, and although we were probably flattered by a couple of Brown's efforts early on when he was super fit, there has to be a reason we have dropped off to our current very low level. As I said, right now we wouldn't beat the Eagles, Port or anyone else.

One very visible indicator to me is the lack of backup that Rockliff receives, being young, enthusiastic and competitive [ie he stands out from his teammates] when he gets in the opposition's face. None whatsoever. If I was him I'd be looking around for a team that gives me a bit of muscle when the going gets tough.

 

[Quigley]

I read it as there is a problem with Collins but Voss does not want to hear about it and players need to shut and play rather than whinging. It could just be me reading between the lines.

 

[whatboutbob]

Not sure why the club had to publicly address this on their website.

If it isn't true, you are only giving credibility/oxygen to it.

Was also baffled why they addressed the silly fev BBQ rumours too.

Lack of a cohesive direction and purpose.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Stay silent and they're accused of going into the bunker and covering up while the ravenous vultures circle probing for any weakness and print half-truth articles that further incite fans looking for a scapegoat. And while I've not seen Voss play cricket I'd suspect he doesn't spend much time on the back foot.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Stay silent and they're accused of going into the bunker and covering up while the ravenous vultures circle probing for any weakness and printing half-truth articles that incite fans looking for a scapegoat. And while I've not seen Voss play cricket I'd suspect he doesn't spend much time on the back foot.

Fair points.

 

[Stocka]

I think Voss should have said that Fev only went to the BBQ because he heard that the WAGS were putting on a sausage sizzle in his honour.

 

[acuguy]

Could we see a 6-8 player cull at the end of the season and some football department people.

 

[western royboy]

Could we see a 6-8 player cull at the end of the season and some football department people.

Add a CEO and you are close although this year is probbly not the one to cut 6-8 and start afresh.

 

[POBT]

Re POBT's response above: we obviously aren't poles apart.

The penny dropped with me during the Tigers game when the only blokes having a dip were the trainees- Rockliff and Banfield. The rest were pathetic- actually, this gives pathetic a bad name.

This effort was simply not acceptable on any level- it took us back to the late 90's.

The thing is we started off the year with high hopes, and although we were probably flattered by a couple of Brown's efforts early on when he was super fit, there has to be a reason we have dropped off to our current very low level. As I said, right now we wouldn't beat the Eagles, Port or anyone else.

One very visible indicator to me is the lack of backup that Rockliff receives, being young, enthusiastic and competitive [ie he stands out from his teammates] when he gets in the opposition's face. None whatsoever. If I was him I'd be looking around for a team that gives me a bit of muscle when the going gets tough.

I think we are reading from the same page in terms of how the team is performing. As you point out, we don't really know what is causing the lack of effort but it is certain that the playing group is not reaching the required standard of effort.

 

[POBT]

I have two different reactions from the Voss statements:

1. The players should harden the **** up and take their medicine. They aren't performing and if someone has the balls to tell them that, then they should listen and take notice.

2. There must be some sort of risk that the playing group, or elements of it, are not singing from the hymn sheet at the moment. Regardless of whose fault it is, any divide between the playing group and football operations is cancerous and needs to be addressed immediately.

 

[acuguy]

We are hearing a lot from the coach and Browny but not a lot from our players. Are they under a media ban?

The change has to be player driven now!

 

[Hollow Knight]

We are hearing a lot from the coach and Browny but not a lot from our players. Are they under a media ban?

Just saw about 2 minutes of a Daniel Merrett press conference on Fox Sports News. Look harder.

 

[charles202]

When Voss took over he obviously saw the need to change a lot not just the playing list but the entire football department.

I've got no idea what Dan Collins does but it is not uncommon in my experience for a leader to have a hatchet man that has to deliver the tough message. I see this similar as to a military organisational struture. This structure would also explain why the players think that Voss is not aproachable as before.

The problem with change is that to achieve you it you often have to take a step or two backwards before moving forward, that doesnt mean the changes are a bad thing or that they should cease.

The fact that Collins was at the AIS probably means that Voss was not the first person/organisation to think that he was very good at what he does.

Its hard to tell at this stage whether the grumblings at this stage are due to the changes or the bad season. I imamgine that a lot of these changes were happening last year but winning cures all.

Only time will tell on this one.

 

[GingerGreatness]

Its hard to tell at this stage whether the grumblings at this stage are due to the changes or the bad season. I imamgine that a lot of these changes were happening last year but winning cures all.

Only time will tell on this one.

Agree with this, although I imagine any head scratching/grumblings between players and/or assistant coaches are probably along the lines of:-

> Vossy recruits footballers not athletes - good plan;

> Vossy wants football brains as a priority - good plan;

> Vossy's right hand man telling us all how to do our jobs has no background in footy...