De Boer the mid

[Clay Davis]

lol Displacing a couple of Pavlich, Sandilands, Mundy, Barlow, Broughton or MacPharlin and you pretty much become AA contender. Nah, not hard at all.

Considering only two of those have ever been AA, yeah, I'm not so sure. We didn't start the rebuild in 2008 with the idea that Sandilands and Pavlich would be heading the B&F in 2012 either.

The top level at Freo isn't some insurmountable challenge where you're against top class performers. Michael Johnson got there one year. The fact that Pavlich won the B&F in one of his poorest years emphasises that, as well as Mundy finishing top five despite missing nearly half a season. If Hill plays nearly every game and plays to his ability, he can take the Doig out easily.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

Considering only two of those have ever been AA, yeah, I'm not so sure. We didn't start the rebuild in 2008 with the idea that Sandilands and Pavlich would be heading the B&F in 2012 either.

The top level at Freo isn't some insurmountable challenge where you're against top class performers. Michael Johnson got there one year. The fact that Pavlich won the B&F in one of his poorest years emphasises that, as well as Mundy finishing top five despite missing nearly half a season. If Hill plays nearly every game and plays to his ability, he can take the Doig out easily.

whilst i dont necessarily agree with everything you have said on this subject. i do agree with this. Hill in my opinion can and will win the B&F next year my reasonings are as follows and explain why i think many on here are going overboard on stephen:

1. new coach- many think hilly needs a harder edge and a greater work rate. to a degree i think that is true, you could say that about almost any player in the afl, i believe lyon will get this out of him

2. Players around him- the facts are that with barlow, mundy, morabito (to a lesser degree) missing most of the year, the only other player to tag is hill. we can bang on all we want about him not working hard enough to break a tag, but sometimes playing on cameron ling isnt that easy, especially for a 21 year old with 50-odd games under his belt. with the injection of the others back, hill wont always be getting the best tag every single week.

3. full preseason- another thing that gets glossed over, and you clay call it making excuses, but hilly had shin splints all preseason last year, he was just hitting his straps then played against north and injured his knee... confidence creates form as they say, i dont think he ever got confident, because i dont think he was fit for the first half of the season

4. better team structure- we made fun of rowan jones a lot, but he served a purpose, with a better team structure and ethos i think stephen will get more help from his team mates.

5. pride- from all reports stephen is a very proud young man, he will know deep down that the taggers got the better of him on occasions, i have no doubt he will be working harder than anyone to get the best out of himself.

If i can find a place to take the bet, id whack a 50 on him for the doig tomorrow

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

Rojo <3

 

[Righteo]

Maybe Hill is just following the example set by his captain Avid - chase, tackle, shepherd, run 'til you drop.

What about his indigenous role-model in Johnson? He might not tackle and chase, but it could be a fair bit worse don't you think?

 

[Patty_Moz]

Being in the top 1 or 2 players at Freo next year isn't that hard, is it? Still hasn't broken through that level yet, compared to Fyfe, Pavlich, Hasleby, who have all finished at least first or second in the Doig in the early part of their career.

Fyfe did it in a yr that our other best players (Mundy, Sandi, Barlow) were all out injured for large parts of the year. When Pav and Haselby did it there wasnt any competition for the 1 and 2 positions.

You have to be kidding yourself that if Hill repeats his efforts this yr ie finishes 7th in the Doig that there will be any question marks over his future at Freo.

 

[Clay Davis]

Fyfe did it in a yr that our other best players (Mundy, Sandi, Barlow) were all out injured for large parts of the year. When Pav and Haselby did it there wasnt any competition for the 1 and 2 positions.

You have to be kidding yourself that if Hill repeats his efforts this yr ie finishes 7th in the Doig that there will be any question marks over his future at Freo.

The coaching group have already said they're target the 2012 draft for talls. Even if we finish as low as tenth, that limits our draft picks. There's every chance they'll put players on the table for trade. Anyone under performing but with high value could be up for negotiation.

Hill will be 22 next year, which is the age at which guys like McLeod/Matera started to dominate. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to be that kind of player next year, injury permitting of course.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

The coaching group have already said they're target the 2012 draft for talls. Even if we finish as low as tenth, that limits our draft picks. There's every chance they'll put players on the table for trade. Anyone under performing but with high value could be up for negotiation.

Hill will be 22 next year, which is the age at which guys like McLeod/Matera started to dominate. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to be that kind of player next year, injury permitting of course.

So lets say Hill underperforms this season we will trade him.

How about all the other players that underperform. Why dont we trade half the team. I think Hill is your scapegoat.

 

[Clay Davis]

So lets say Hill underperforms this season we will trade him.

How about all the other players that underperform. Why dont we trade half the team. I think Hill is your scapegoat.

No scapegoat. I've just seen what other clubs have done with popular and talented players in trading them - see Croad and Tarrant.

I think Hill is probably going to be the best player Freo has ever had, but let's say he stagnates next year. Does the club take the hard decision in a strong draft?

It's not an absurd proposition.

 

[Patty_Moz]

The coaching group have already said they're target the 2012 draft for talls. Even if we finish as low as tenth, that limits our draft picks. There's every chance they'll put players on the table for trade. Anyone under performing but with high value could be up for negotiation.

Hill will be 22 next year, which is the age at which guys like McLeod/Matera started to dominate. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to be that kind of player next year, injury permitting of course.

Your right there will be players on the trade table but I think they will be Duffield, Ibbotson, Johnson, Mayne just to mention a few they arent gonna give up Hill to get a couple of places higher in draft, the draft is a gamble after all.

I'm with ya, I'd love to see Hill playing like those 2 next yr but if he doesnt I think its way to early to feed him to wolves. Lyon has already said that he thinks Hill is ahead of the curve so he obviously rates what he has done in the last couple of yrs. From all reports Hill always works hard at training and at his game so really not the type of player that Lyon is going to give away. Lyon got the best out of Peake for s**** sake I think he will trust his coaching abilities to get the best out of Hill even if Hill has an average 2012.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

Mundy was pick 19 in an exceedingly weak draft. Hill was pick three in a ridiculously strong draft. If he continues on going missing like he did in a few games this year Lyon will look at trading him.

Don't say such things. Hill is an absolute star, best player/midfielder/kid in our side. We've never had a player better than him.

Serious, honestly.





Did you just selfpwn?

 

[Clay Davis]

Don't say such things. Hill is an absolute star, best player/midfielder/kid in our side. We've never had a player better than him.

Serious, honestly.





Did you just selfpwn?

He's better than Suban, who would attract zilch at trade.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

Mundy was pick 19 in an exceedingly weak draft. Hill was pick three in a ridiculously strong draft. If he continues on going missing like he did in a few games this year Lyon will look at trading him.

i wasn't meaning to compare the two. my point, which was badly put, is that mundy was allowed the time to become who he has. we've been so spoiled the past few years with the accelerated development of kids like fyfe, hill, mora (to an extent), and compounded by the immediate impact of older draftees like ballas and broughton that i think our expectations have gone off the rails. if it weren't for our dreadful history of injuries since hill was drafted, we wouldn't even by having this conversation, as those kids would have been given the time to develop, not thrown into the deep end. it's testament to their ability that they've been able play as well as they have and been given the respect they have by the opposition.

i don't know, what was it like in the 70s, 80s and 90s? did we always have this expectation for kids who have promise to deliver almost immediately? a handful might, but they usually already have the bodies to handle it. it's not just limited to freo. gibbs, watts, they suffer under the scrutiny of their fans. i blame the internet.

 

[Clay Davis]

i wasn't meaning to compare the two. my point, which was badly put, is that mundy was allowed the time to become who he has. we've been so spoiled the past few years with the accelerated development of kids like fyfe, hill, mora (to an extent), and compounded by the immediate impact of older draftees like ballas and broughton that i think our expectations have gone off the rails. if it weren't for our dreadful history of injuries since hill was drafted, we wouldn't even by having this conversation, as those kids would have been given the time to develop, not thrown into the deep end. it's testament to their ability that they've been able play as well as they have and been given the respect they have by the opposition.

i don't know, what was it like in the 70s, 80s and 90s? did we always have this expectation for kids who have promise to deliver almost immediately? a handful might, but they usually already have the bodies to handle it. it's not just limited to freo. gibbs, watts, they suffer under the scrutiny of their fans. i blame the internet.

Maybe, but players like Tim Watson (debut 15), Simon Madden (debut 16), Robert Harvey (debut 16), and Michael Voss (debut 17) debuted young and excelled. Wayne Carey was captain at Hill's age. Voss was a Brownlow medallist. Madden had his first (of many) B&Fs at age 20.

Really not that silly to expect Hill to be a top line player at Freo at age 22.

 

[Patty_Moz]

I think Marc Murphy is a pretty good example of how you'd expect a player to develop these days and you would only now consider him to be elite and Judd would still attract the first tagger ahead of him. He turned 24 this yr but had a good 2010 and then a very good 2011 but his best football will probly come over the next couple of seasons. I dont think much more should be expected of Hill.

 

[Shaymuhz]

Maybe, but players like Tim Watson (debut 15), Simon Madden (debut 16), Robert Harvey (debut 16), and Michael Voss (debut 17) debuted young and excelled. Wayne Carey was captain at Hill's age. Voss was a Brownlow medallist. Madden had his first (of many) B&Fs at age 20.

Really not that silly to expect Hill to be a top line player at Freo at age 22.

While that may be true I think they are the exceptions rather than the rule. GAJ didn't win start playing midfield until five seasons and over 100 games, let alone win a b&f.

 

[BananaOnTheRun]

Maybe, but players like Tim Watson (debut 15), Simon Madden (debut 16), Robert Harvey (debut 16), and Michael Voss (debut 17) debuted young and excelled. Wayne Carey was captain at Hill's age. Voss was a Brownlow medallist. Madden had his first (of many) B&Fs at age 20.

Really not that silly to expect Hill to be a top line player at Freo at age 22.

no, but it's silly to expect him to be a once in a generation player like those you've mentioned. and what is clear with those examples is that reaching great heights at a young age isn't very common at all. what creates disappointment is expectation, an illusory projection made into the future. you can expect him to try his guts out, but i think to expect he'll be in the echelons of football demi-gods is ludicrous. if hill gets the support from his team mates, if he keeps working at his development, if he's coached well to take on his challenges, then he'll probably make good on his potential. at the moment, though, he only has that potential and a lot of hard work ahead of him. whether he reaches the hallowed ground of a legend is the exciting story that's still being told.

 

[East Freo]

I think Marc Murphy is a pretty good example of how you'd expect a player to develop these days and you would only now consider him to be elite and Judd would still attract the first tagger ahead of him. He turned 24 this yr but had a good 2010 and then a very good 2011 but his best football will probly come over the next couple of seasons. I dont think much more should be expected of Hill.

Let's go with this.
Seriously I can't believe that this forum has , for my mind , degenerated into a discussion about Hill & being traded !!
Really is mind boggling ....

 

[theGav56]

Considering only two of those have ever been AA, yeah, I'm not so sure.

My statement is AA contention, and they have all been fairly consistently in that category. We didn't start the rebuild in 2008 with the idea that Sandilands and Pavlich would be heading the B&F in 2012 either. Why not? Would not have been a consideration. I would have thought the expectations when they got signed up for long contracts on big money is that they would be the club champions.

The top level at Freo isn't some insurmountable challenge where you're against top class performers.Of course it is against top class performers. Almost any teams top two players are top class. Michael Johnson got there one year. Explains why he got a new 2 year deal, but is irrelevant. He got it because he played well. The fact that Pavlich won the B&F in one of his poorest years emphasises that I think it emphasises how difficult it is to finish in the top 2. , as well as Mundy finishing top five Top 5 is not top 2. despite missing nearly half a season. If Hill plays nearly every game and plays to his ability, he can take the Doig out easily.

You've got nothing.

 

[theGav56]

The coaching group have already said they're target the 2012 draft for talls. Even if we finish as low as tenth, that limits our draft picks. There's every chance they'll put players on the table for trade. Anyone under performing but with high value could be up for negotiation.

Hill will be 22 next year, which is the age at which guys like McLeod/Matera started to dominate. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to be that kind of player next year, injury permitting of course.

So you are implying that if he doesn't start playing like a couple of the absolute champions of the game within the same development period that they did it, he "could be" "every chance" to be traded for a speculative pick that might get us a KPP.......

Ya everyone and anyone can be traded if the price is right. The more likely thing is there is every chance that he could be given another contract before the season ends, pretty much regardless of form.

 

[Dr2Sheds]

no, but it's silly to expect him to be a once in a generation player like those you've mentioned. and what is clear with those examples is that reaching great heights at a young age isn't very common at all. what creates disappointment is expectation, an illusory projection made into the future. you can expect him to try his guts out, but i think to expect he'll be in the echelons of football demi-gods is ludicrous. if hill gets the support from his team mates, if he keeps working at his development, if he's coached well to take on his challenges, then he'll probably make good on his potential. at the moment, though, he only has that potential and a lot of hard work ahead of him. whether he reaches the hallowed ground of a legend is the exciting story that's still being told.

I concur Banana, well put.

 

[theGav56]

It's moronic to suggest he won't be here next year (or at least command very high draft picks or a great player in return if he's not).

Yes. That is my point (not sure if you are agreeing with me or not).

Rank players in terms of likelihood to get another contract and Hill will be at/near the top, no doubt about that.

The fact that he would be at the top of the table for trade value is not relevant.

 

[blue shark]

With De Boer, Mcphee, Morabito missing games this year, no wonder Hill struggled.
Lower was sometimes the only player capable of physically competing in the midfield, and fly the flag.
Put these guys into the square, with Ballentyne, Mellington, getting a run and we will see Hill, Fyfe cut teams to shreds.
Every team needs players who put their bodies on the line for the team.
Freo went handball crazy this year in the midfield, often handballing to players standing still, or at their feet, always under pressure, this is where the above players will sheppard, block, to create time and space.

 

[Clay Davis]

You've got nothing.

Learn to quote, old man.

 

[Clay Davis]

So you are implying that if he doesn't start playing like a couple of the absolute champions of the game within the same development period that they did it, he "could be" "every chance" to be traded for a speculative pick that might get us a KPP.......

Ya everyone and anyone can be traded if the price is right. The more likely thing is there is every chance that he could be given another contract before the season ends, pretty much regardless of form.

Sorry, how is Sandilands or Mundy an absolute champion of the game? Only Pavlich can make a claim to that title in our history. I don't expect him to play like Matera or McLeod next year. Simply to play as well as Sandilands/Mundy. The fact that people make the excuse that Hill is young doesn't fly, because so many players his age and younger have proven themselves to a level far higher than the minimum that should be expected.

He's played over 50 games. He's not a kid any more. Time to start producing.

 

[theGav56]

Learn to quote, old man.

Sorry, how is Sandilands or Mundy an absolute champion of the game? Only Pavlich can make a claim to that title in our history. I don't expect him to play like Matera or McLeod next year. Simply to play as well as Sandilands/Mundy. The fact that people make the excuse that Hill is young doesn't fly, because so many players his age and younger have proven themselves to a level far higher than the minimum that should be expected.

He's played over 50 games. He's not a kid any more. Time to start producing.

This is typical of your rubbish arguments where you start to resemble some failed Russian gymnast.

You make a statement about how it is not difficult to crack the top 2 players at Fremantle, and I reference Sandilands and Mundy with a statement that to better them puts you in AA contention. And you wobble all over the balance bar with another wobbly gravy reply.

You make a statement about McLeod and Matera as a direct comparison; Then the backflip with multiple twists.

You fail to quote my arguments in reply, most likely because that would involve actually using what I am thinking rather than misinterpretations, gravy style. And most amusing, think personal abuse is somehow going to enhance your position.

You've got nothing at all.