Den Cricket Team Selection Discussions

[POBT]

It never started. His membership to the Collingwood Football Club expires a week after the end of the last poll (8:35pm, 18th December), but Warwick renegged on the bet.

Was it ever expressly decided that it was the Collingwood FC - or was Collingwood just mentioned?

 

[Grimreepah]

Fancy a little wager motor-mouth Grim?

If my team receives more votes than yours, you have to post as a Collingwood supporter (change your team in your profile), for a week after the completion of the poll.

You make up your own mind POBT. Here is the context of the conversation.

 

[John]

Was it ever expressly decided that it was the Collingwood FC - or was Collingwood just mentioned?

I think Warwick showed great creativity myself and deserves recognition for that.**
















** I just can't believe I wrote that

 

[John]

Can someone post me that link to the random number selector. I am having trouble finding it. Thanks.

 

[roostersgal4eva]

RG Bigfooty Chairmans 11

Gordon Greenidge - 70's
Bill Ponsford - 30's
Ricky Ponting - 2000's
Sir Frank Worrell - 60's
Arthur Morris - 40's
Ian Healy - 90's
Wasim Akram - 80's
Richie Benaud - 50's
Lance Cairns - 80's
Jeff Thomson - 70's
Glenn McGrath - 90's

 

[POBT]

RG, you'll need to change one of your 70s players to another decade (limit of 2 per decade isn't there?) - but all 3 played in the 80s so it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[POBT]

You make up your own mind POBT. Here is the context of the conversation.

The lawyer in me says that the terms of the agreement were poorly drafted Grim. The intent is clear IMO but, on words alone, I believe Warwick has technically complied. As an opponent of judicial activism, the only determination available to me is that Warwick has met his side of the bet.

However, the bloke in me says that Warwick is a dirty welcher!

 

[Warwick]

"Collingwood" was mentioned - i find no record of Collingwood FC. Thank God the week has expired. I am not particularly a fan of any Collingwood.


And POBT's team is going to be very hard to beat. It helps when most people immediately recognise your players.

 

[John]

"Collingwood" was mentioned - i find no record of Collingwood FC. Thank God the week has expired. I am not particularly a fan of any Collingwood.


And POBT's team is going to be very hard to beat. It helps when most people immediately recognise your players.

Do not underestimate the voter.

 

[Grimreepah]

The lawyer in me says that the terms of the agreement were poorly drafted Grim. The intent is clear IMO but, on words alone, I believe Warwick has technically complied. As an opponent of judicial activism, the only determination available to me is that Warwick has met his side of the bet.

However, the bloke in me says that Warwick is a dirty welcher!

Possibly. The fact that Warwick said you need to change your team to support Collingwood is fairly conclusive IMO. But if we were bringing in lawyers we would have signed a contract. Obviously I was relying on Warwick's honesty.

 

[toddy]

Did i mention how well i thought you went last game Grim??? And John you seem very knowledgeable i look forward to your vote...

 

[Warwick]

Did i mention how well i thought you went last game Grim??? And John you seem very knowledgeable i look forward to your vote...

Clutching at straws there toddy.

I'll be on later tonight to do my small review/reasoning as to the players i have selected to go with my team on the poll. Do we post that on here?

 

[John]

Clutching at straws there toddy.

I'll be on later tonight to do my small review/reasoning as to the players i have selected to go with my team on the poll. Do we post that on here?

I would post it on a new thread with the poll. LL may not be able to do hers. I am happy to write a few words on her team if you other players do not mind.
I doubt she would mind either. I would have to do it tommorow evening though.

 

[Warwick]

Warwick's World XI:
1. Herb Sutcliff - 4555 runs @ an average of 60
2. Sunil Gavaskar - 10122 runs @ 51
3. Sir Everton Weekes - 4455 runs @ 58
4. Graeme Pollock - 2256 runs @ 61
5. Steve Waugh (c) - 10927 runs @ 51 and 92 wickets @ 37
6. Keith Miller - 2958 runs @ 37 and 170 wickets @ 22
7. Adam Gilchrist+* - 5290 runs @ 49 and 369 dismissals
8. Kapil Dev - 5248 runs @ 31 and 434 wickets @ 29
9. Shane Warne* - 3043 runs @ 17 and 699 wickets @ 25
10. Michael Holding - 249 wickets @ 23
11. Waqar Younis - 373 wickets @ 23

* current players

The obvious leader of my side is Steve Waugh who would really excel in these conditions if the games were played for real. He is an attacking and creative leader, which would be vital in bowling out my tough opposition. Also, if you needed a player to bat for your life, Tugga is the man. As seen particularly during the tour of the Windies in 1995, Waugh stood up against, and beat the best attacks in the world. He was a courageous and dominating player, and was considered one of, if not the best batsmen in the world during the 90s. He also offers me variation in my attack with the ability to move the ball in the air and off the pitch.

My opening batsmen ooze talent and class. Gavaskar is an automatic selection in most selectors World XI’s, and has an incredible record. He was the leading batsman of the late 1970s and 80s, an era that was synomonous with quality pace bowling. Known for an almost unbeatable defence and powers of concentration, Gavaskar hit a remarkable 34 centuries and averaged over 50 during 125 test matches. Herb Sutcliff’s greatest qualities were courage and concentration. He scored more than 50 000 runs in first class cricket, and averaged over 60 during his 54 test matches. An incredible achievement considering he played during the 20s and 30s where conditions favoured the bowlers. He is one of England’s greatest ever batsmen (still has the highest average of any English player in history), and along with the rest of the players in my top 6, a recipient of Wisden’s cricket of the year award.

Opposition players used to fear the “three Ws” when playing the West Indies during the 40s and 50s – Sir Frank Worrell, Sir Clive Walcott, and Sir Everton Weekes. Weekes was a prolific run scorer and is ranked along some of the best batsmen to have played the game. Known for his fleet footwork and vast array of strokes, he set a world record of 5 consecutive centuries. Knighted for his services to cricket, Weekes averaged an astounding 58.62 over his 48 game test career, batting primarily at first drop.

Following Weekes in the order is one of my most intriguing selections. Some, including Don Bradman and Dickie Bird rated/rates Graeme Pollock as the best left-handed batsmen of all time. In fact, the Don rated Pollock the best player he had ever seen. Unfortunately the Apartheid in South Africa ended his career prematurely, and he only played 23 tests. Pollock still averaged over 60 runs during his short test career and 55 during his 260-game First Class career. His impact was so significant; a few judges have him listed in their best team of the 20th century.

Following Steve Waugh in the order is Keith Miller. Miller is the only man to have his name on both the batting and bowling honour boards in the visitor dressing-rooms at Lord’s, typifying what a quality all-rounder he was. He is best known for his new ball partnership with Ray Lindwall, and his attacking stroke-play. Miller was an intergral part of the “Invincibles”, and a member of the Australian team of the century.

Next in the batting order, and one of my first selections, is Adam Gilchrist. Nothing needs to be said about Gilly, because we have all seen his entire career. He is the best ‘keeper-batsmen to play the game, and can destroy attacks at will.

Kapil Dev gives me a very long batting order, as well as a highly dangerous pace bowler. Rated as one of the best all-rounders to have played the game, Kapil Dev was India’s main strike bowler throughout his career, and is the only player in the history of the game to have taken 400 wickets and made 4000 runs (let alone 5000).

My first selection in this draft, and the leader of my bowling attack is none other than Shane Keith Warne. Once again, nothing needs to be said. Any team with Warney in it, is capable of bowling any side out, any day of the week. Should take his 700th wicket at the MCG. Is a very valuable batsmen to be coming in at number 9, and also gives me a safe pair of hands in the cauldron.

My number 10 and 11 were probably my hardest selections. I already had two very capable opening bowlers in Miller and Kapil Dev if I wanted to give them the new nut, so I went more for impact bowlers. Michael Holding is another from the fearsome West Indies attacks from the 70s and 80s and was quick, damn quick. “Whispering Death” had an effortless and elegant approach to the crease, where he would unleash a thunderbolt. He will take the new ball for me.

Waqar Younis was an interesting selection even though his career rivals some of the best (373 wickets at 23). Waqar, along with Wasim Akram, was part of the great modern Pakistani pace duo. Known for his pace and his ability to bowl full and straight, Waqar has the best strike rate of any bowler with over 200 wickets. His great talent was the ability to swing the ball a lot, and late. He is the kind of bowler who would trouble the likes of Lara and Ponting, who are susceptible to the straight, full ball early in their innings. Was one of the best exponents of reverse swing, and gives me great variety in my attack, working with Holding, Miller, Kapil Dev, Warney, and Steve Waugh.


Extra notes:
Contains one of Wisden's 5 best cricketers of the century - Shane Warne
Contains the South African test cricketer of the century - Graeme Pollock
Contains the Indian test cricketer of the century - Kapil Dev
Contains the game's highest wicket taker (Warne) and the most capped player and most successful captain (Waugh)
Only 5 players in history have an average in excess of 60 (Bradman, Barry Richards, Pollock, Sutcliff, and Headley) - my team contains 2 of them.

 

[John]

The opening partnership is sublime. Your batting is long, solid and full of runs, and with Gilchrist destructive. The question is whom would you open the bowling with? Holding & Waqar for me. Waqar was a proponent of reverse swing and what I caught of him destructive with the old ball as well as new. Younger readers of this should not underrate him as his name may pass by the Holdings and Devs who are recognised due to Holdings commentary and Dev who as you say is the only man in history to score 4,000 runs and take 400 wickets.

Miller is without a doubt an interesting character. He was loved in the UK due to his knock a bout nature and you have to admire a bloke who was , according to rumour, very good "friends" with Princess Margaret. He also summed up life for me with a superb quote. When asked about the pressures of life as a cricketer he replied "Pressure? Pressure is a Messerschmitt up your arse,"


A magnificent team Warwick.

 

[Grimreepah]

Did i mention how well i thought you went last game Grim??? And John you seem very knowledgeable i look forward to your vote...

Thanks mate.

I might have to look through your side again because on reflection it looks like I may have undervalued a few players.

 

[John]

Thanks mate.

I might have to look through your side again because on reflection it looks like I may have undervalued a few players.

All of these sides are fantastic, as I expected. It will be very difficult come vote time.

 

[POBT]

Sir Len Hutton (c) - 1940s
Matthew Hayden - 1990s
Rahul Dravid - 2000s
Brian Lara - 1990s
Sir Garfield Sobers (vc) - 1950s
Doug Walters - 1960s
Kumar Sangakkara (wk) - 2000s
Malcolm Marshall - 1980s
Dennis Lillee - 1970s
Curtley Ambrose - 1980s
Bill "Tiger" O'Reilly - 1930s


Openers: My opening partnership is the classic left/right combination. Sir Len Hutton ranks as one of the 2 greatest batsmen produced by England and the best performed opening batsman in the period in question. His record as an opener is unsurpassed. He has an average of 56.67 over a career that was interrupted by WW2. Hutton was the rock on which post-war England rebuilt its cricket side, culminating in England becoming the dominant side in world cricket and Hutton the finest batsman in the post-Bradman era. Hutton was both England's captain and its best player. He held the world record for his highest Test score of 364. I chose Sir Len on the basis of his record both as an opening batsmen and captain. Matthew Hayden spent some 4 years as arguably the game's most dominant batsman since Garry Sobers. Since then, he remains the best opening batsman in world cricket. Dominant against quick bowling and possibly the best player of spin outside sub-continental batsmen, Hayden is the perfect foil for Hutton. One of my strategies in this game was to ensure that left hand, right hand combinations and Hayden is the best left-handed opening batsman the world has seen. His average of 52.29 and a high score of 380 puts him in the top echelon of batsmen over all time.

Middle Order: Again, the left-hand, right-hand combinations are evident through the middle order. Rahul Dravid averages more away from India than he does at home, indicating the all-round game that many of his countrymen do not possess. Of players to have played more than 100 tests, his batting record is the second best of all time and has an average above 58. Dravid is a fine strokemaker but is better known for his ability to play a sheet anchor role to attacking batsmen. I chose Dravid to provide the perfect balance to the exciting and attacking middle order to follow. Brian Lara holds so many of the game's batting records indicating both a genius and longevity that perhaps only Bradman could match. Lara is the world record holder for a single innings as well as the most runs of all time. He is second to Bradman in number of double centuries produced in Test cricket. Lara is the most exciting stroke player that I have seen. In his pomp, he was dismissive of spinners and punishing against pacemen. As a leftie and an attacking batsmen, he complements Dravid perfectly. Sir Garfield Sobers is considered by most to be the second greatest cricketer of all time. He is one of Wisden's 5 cricketers of the century (only 2 others are available in this game) and easily the game's best all-rounder. If Sobers could not bowl, his record is such that he could arguably be ranked the 2nd best batsman of all time with an average of over 57 and the world record highest Test score for many years. He was an extremely attacking left handed batsman and produced the innings that Bradman described as the best he'd seen. But he also took a total of 235 wickets in Test cricket, with a mixture of left arm pace, wrist spin and finger spin. He would more than hold his own in any Test side with those abilities. Doug Walters was a crowd favourite both for his relaxed blokey attitude and his exciting, attacking style of batting. But to call him a crowd favourite does him an injustice as he was possibly the most damaging and feared batsman of his era. His average around 48 which is incredible for a batsman with such attacking instincts. He was also a handy medium pace swing bowler, taking 49 wickets at an average of 29 - figures which stack up well against more recognised all-rounder such as the Waughs. I chose Douggie on the basis that your number 6 is ideally a game changer. Incidentally it is also Douggie's birthday today!

Wicketkeeper: Kumar Sangakkara may have had the misfortune of playing in the same era as Gilchrist, despite the fact that his record more than compares. Sangakkara has a higher average, bats in the top 3, has scored only 200 runs less in 20 fewer Tests and is 6 years younger than Gilchrist. Right now, a convincing argument could be mounted that the best 2 keepers of all time are Gilchrist and Sangakkara. In 5 years time, there is every chance Sanga will be spoken of as the greatest wicketkeeper/batsman of all time, Gilchrist included. Sanga's keeping is also of the highest quality, particularly with the toughest keeping job in world cricket - to Murali. Unlike many keeper/batsmen, his keeping is outstanding. I was amazed that Sanga was overlooked by everyone. On any measure, he is worthy of a World XI spot. He also adds another left hander to my middle order mix.

Bowlers: Malcolm Marshall is the best fast bowler that I have ever seen. Talk of stats and his are as good or better than any other fast bowler in history, across the board. His average (20.94), strike rate (46.7) and longevity (376 wickets) are exceptional. But his contribution to a game is measured by so much more. He was a swing bowling, seaming, bouncing and accurate fast bowler. I wanted a bowling attack that could do the job with new ball and old - and Marshall is top of the tree on that front. Marshall could hold a bat too and has 10 Test half centuries to his name. Dennis Lilllee shares the new ball with Marshall. I rank Dennis as the best Australian fast bowler I have seen. Like Marshall, his ability in any conditions, against any batsmen and with new or old ball, is exceptional. Lillee had pace (extreme pace as a younger player) but also had the guile of a medium pacer. He played in arguably the strongest era of Test cricket and was an out and out champion. If you wanted a fast bowler to bowl for your life, DK was the one. Despite the fact that he generally lead a bowling attack, I see Curtly Ambrose as the perfect first change bowler. He is an ideal change of direction and style to the opening bowlers. He is one of the best line and length bowlers of all time but had the advantage of extreme bounce and substantial seam movement. He could bowl long, accurate and challenging spells both with and into the wind. He was also probably the most physically dangerous bowler of his era which helped his fellow bowlers take wickets. Bradman called Bill "Tiger" O'Reilly the greatest spinner of all time - and that included Warne. Tiger was a quickish leg spinner who relied on subtle turn, flight and spin variations and unusually high bounce to take wickets. The highest compliment is that he had the psyche of a fast bowler. Playing in the batsmen dominated era of the 30s, Tiger stood out as the greatest bowler. Circumstances and war robbed the Tiger of some of his best years, but even then, he is one of the few greatest spin bowlers of the 20th century.

General notes:

- My top 5 batsmen and my wicketkeeper all average over 50. The only exception is Doug Walters who was chosen ahead of several others despite the fact that his average was "only" 48.
- My 4 frontline bowlers all average under 25. Marshall and Ambrose have 2 of the top 3 averages of bowlers in this draft game. Tiger's average is better than all spinners selected but Laker and Murali.
- My side includes 2 knighted cricketers, 4 holders of the highest Test score, the greatest run-scorer of all time and the former record holder for most Test wickets.

 

[John]

Great summation POBT.

 

[toddy]

I may require someone to do a summary of my team as im leaving to go away soon, if John is doing LL's side perhaps Grim if your available you could have a crack. I will try and put some notes together but may not have time for an indepth report. On a side note we should post the vote on the main lions bored for 2 weeks (length can be changed if desired) and then get LL to move it after its finished.

 

[John]

I am happy to do it for you Toddy. I am going to do LL's this evening so can do yours as well. Happy to let Grim do it if he wants though.

 

[Warwick]

I'll do it toddy.

 

[toddy]

I am happy to do it for you Toddy. I am going to do LL's this evening so can do yours as well. Happy to let Grim do it if he wants though.

Yeah thats much appreciated John i got some stuff written up so ill see how i go tonight but if i cant ill send what ive done for you to impart your knowledge.

 

[Warwick]

Doesn't this just show how dominant Bradman was?

Not only did he have a record almost twice as good as the next best player, and the fact he was "too good" to be considered for this game, but both reviews have talked up certain players by citing Bradman's opinion on them.

 

[Grimreepah]

I am happy to do it for you Toddy. I am going to do LL's this evening so can do yours as well. Happy to let Grim do it if he wants though.

Fire away John.