Destined for another Ruckless Premier

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Lingsface

Lingsface

Premiership Player
Veteran
May 9, 2005
4,261
2,345
perth
AFL Club
Geelong
Other Teams
geelong
It amazes me as I see the game as having a clear advantage with a great ruckmen but the amount of Premiers with average to bad Rick divisions is amazing. Geelong last year Stanley pffft Richmond dynasty no one special, Hawthorn Dynasty no one special, Brisbane no one special.

This year hard to rank but GWS has the best out of the ones left and the guy wasn’t even close to a starter at the start of the season. Main competition is probably Carlton for the spot but still De Koning maybe something special and his performance on the weekend highlighted this but not there yet and Pittonet is a solid tryer.

Dean Cox, Max Gawn are absolute assets and such important players in my opinion it amazes me that teams with the All Australian ruckman aren’t getting a decent advantage.
 

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Lingsface said:
I just struggle to give into this though I’m sure if I put Max Gawn playing in one of these teams there midfield would operate even better.
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But that's not how it works. It isn't saying that Max Gawn rather than Lycett in any given team would give no benefit.

But - given that most hit outs are "winnable" by either teams midfielders - elite ball winners and users (for territory, which remains the most important thing) remain much more important. And by deduction, having a ruckman who wins the hitouts most often isn't the decisive factor for territory/ball retention.
 
Mr Meow said:
But that's not how it works. It isn't saying that Max Gawn rather than Lycett in any given team would give no benefit.

But - given that most hit outs are "winnable" by either teams midfielders - elite ball winners and users (for territory, which remains the most important thing) remain much more important. And by deduction, having a ruckman who wins the hitouts most often isn't the decisive factor for territory/ball retention.
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Does there need to be more attention to stoppage plays and the complexity of what can be done if you know the ball is going to a certain area, it’s a lot easier to get a completed pass than an intercept in the nfl but there playbooks are ridiculous.
 
Lingsface said:
It amazes me as I see the game as having a clear advantage with a great ruckmen but the amount of Premiers with average to bad Rick divisions is amazing. Geelong last year Stanley pffft Richmond dynasty no one special, Hawthorn Dynasty no one special, Brisbane no one special.

This year hard to rank but GWS has the best out of the ones left and the guy wasn’t even close to a starter at the start of the season. Main competition is probably Carlton for the spot but still De Koning maybe something special and his performance on the weekend highlighted this but not there yet and Pittonet is a solid tryer.

Dean Cox, Max Gawn are absolute assets and such important players in my opinion it amazes me that teams with the All Australian ruckman aren’t getting a decent advantage.
Click to expand...
tbh how many AA ruckmen has there ben between 2005 & 2022? Because Gawn & Cox have 12 of them between them in that period
 
Lingsface said:
It amazes me as I see the game as having a clear advantage with a great ruckmen but the amount of Premiers with average to bad Rick divisions is amazing. Geelong last year Stanley pffft Richmond dynasty no one special, Hawthorn Dynasty no one special, Brisbane no one special.

This year hard to rank but GWS has the best out of the ones left and the guy wasn’t even close to a starter at the start of the season. Main competition is probably Carlton for the spot but still De Koning maybe something special and his performance on the weekend highlighted this but not there yet and Pittonet is a solid tryer.

Dean Cox, Max Gawn are absolute assets and such important players in my opinion it amazes me that teams with the All Australian ruckman aren’t getting a decent advantage.
Click to expand...
An elite ruck via trade, free agency, or top draft picks is the single worst ROI a club can make for winning premierships, if you factor in the return for the cost.

Any club who spends significant draft, trade, salary cap assets or other on an elite ruck is severely wasting those resources that are much better spent on elite midfield, defence, and to a slightly lesser extent forward players (they tend to also have a premium price but they are more valuable than rucks).

You need a solid-good ruck which you can acquire with relative ease, and then someone who can jump into someone consistently as your second ruck to win flags, that's it.

The Dees chasing Grundy, Freo giving a mountainous trade haul for Jackson, the Eagles spending a top 3 pick on Naitanui or Carlton on Kreuzer, these are all useless investments that don't move you closer to a flag. Naitanui didn't even play in the Eagles flag FFS, shows how non-required they are.

That Gawn is probably the only elite ruck along with Cox in recent memory to win a flag, compared to the bunch of solid rucks that have won flags is proof of this theory.
 

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the ruck is just one player who's part of the midfield. makes sense that if you singled out one spot in the midfield it's not going to be the decisive factor, but I doubt having the best wingers, the best inside ball winner, the best big body etc. are decisive factors either, the Ruckman is just the most obvious outlier who's easy to single out for these comparisons.
 
Liam Boy said:
the ruck is just one player who's part of the midfield. makes sense that if you singled out one spot in the midfield it's not going to be the decisive factor, but I doubt having the best wingers, the best inside ball winner, the best big body etc. are decisive factors either, the Ruckman is just the most obvious outlier who's easy to single out for these comparisons.
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But he is the person that has a one on one contest 50 plus times in a game. Gives you advantage and first use if done to a very good level.
 
Liam Boy said:
the ruck is just one player who's part of the midfield. makes sense that if you singled out one spot in the midfield it's not going to be the decisive factor, but I doubt having the best wingers, the best inside ball winner, the best big body etc. are decisive factors either, the Ruckman is just the most obvious outlier who's easy to single out for these comparisons.
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Yeah exactly - if you ran the same exercise with any individual position it would likely be similar. Bit of a misunderstanding of statistics to draw much from it.
 
CHF is a useless position - Richmond won 2017 without one, Melbourne won one with Tom McDonald, Bulldogs won 2016 with Zaine Cordy?
 
I think what people mean to say are “hitouts are overrated”. Yes, they are. I think Goldy now leads the all time record? Or is 2nd. Either way, my point is that he’s a club great in terms of his service, but from an AFL perspective he’s just been a fair player. Best ruck in the league for a season, but overshadowed by Cox, Sandi and NicNat early and then Gawn, Grundy later in his career.

So just as a mid can rack up 40+ useless disposals and not use it wisely, a ruckman can rack up 40+ useless hitouts and not follow up their work.

Briggs is the best of the lot not because of his hitouts, but because he throws his weight and size around to great effect. He’s a wrecking ball who is top 10 in clearances per game this year (other names either side of him: Serong, Cripps, Oliver, LDU, Crouch, Worpel, Laird). No surprise which ruck is 2nd - McInerney.

These guys are fantastic to their team as they are a 4th big bodied mid post hitout. Just as Cox was a 4th mid, and Gawn was a contested marking giant repelling attacks week after week, they offer more.

As an aside, if you watch GWS more, you would realise that even if he started the year out of the side, Briggs is currently a top 4 ruckman in the comp and is closing the gap fast (overtaken Darcy, behind English, Marshall, Gawn on 2023 for me).
 
The ruck just needs provide a contest in the hit outs and have a couple nice moments during the game.

The gun Rucks are on 800/900k

Pay a competitive ruck 350k and spread the rest between 2 nice role players.

Collingwood recieved alot of criticism for trading Grundy and if we don't trade him it's unlikely we get all Mitchell, Hill and McStay in.
 
HTPunter said:
I think what people mean to say are “hitouts are overrated”. Yes, they are. I think Goldy now leads the all time record? Or is 2nd. Either way, my point is that he’s a club great in terms of his service, but from an AFL perspective he’s just been a fair player. Best ruck in the league for a season, but overshadowed by Cox, Sandi and NicNat early and then Gawn, Grundy later in his career.

So just as a mid can rack up 40+ useless disposals and not use it wisely, a ruckman can rack up 40+ useless hitouts and not follow up their work.

Briggs is the best of the lot not because of his hitouts, but because he throws his weight and size around to great effect. He’s a wrecking ball who is top 10 in clearances per game this year (other names either side of him: Serong, Cripps, Oliver, LDU, Crouch, Worpel, Laird). No surprise which ruck is 2nd - McInerney.

These guys are fantastic to their team as they are a 4th big bodied mid post hitout. Just as Cox was a 4th mid, and Gawn was a contested marking giant repelling attacks week after week, they offer more.

As an aside, if you watch GWS more, you would realise that even if he started the year out of the side, Briggs is currently a top 4 ruckman in the comp and is closing the gap fast (overtaken Darcy, behind English, Marshall, Gawn on 2023 for me).
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Yep, it's a lot more important what they do around the ground rather than hit outs alone. If they are quasi-gun midfielders who position well behind the ball, offer a presence around the ground and drive territory through clearances - they are very important. But for the actual ruck contests they only have to smash in and be somewhat competitive.
 
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