Develop rivalry with NZ

[Santana]

Such an afl insular mentality - rugby isn't popular here so it can't be elsewhere.

Bledisole pulls over 250k viewers in Sydney - which is a number swans get only for a grand final. My point stands that series has increased in size & profile over past 40 years, with all black dominanting.

Just a bitter afl type who is threatened by any sport which has an international component.

I never even mentioned the AFL.... do I dare bring up the NRL to see what happens?

Rugby is clearly struggling in Oz right now, sadly. This kind of coping^ doesn't change that fact

 

[Pippen94]

I never even mentioned the AFL.... do I dare bring up the NRL to see what happens?

Rugby is clearly struggling in Oz right now, sadly. This kind of coping^ doesn't change that fact

What other conclusion can I draw?! Bledisloe is a long term, successful sporting series in which one team dominates. It draws sellout crowds & large TV audiences both sides of Tasman. Maybe not in Melbourne because you're obsessed with whitey ball down there.

To deny this crazy but doesn't surprise me..

 

[Santana]

What other conclusion can I draw?! Bledisloe is a long term, successful sporting series in which one team dominates. It draws sellout crowds & large TV audiences both sides of Tasman. Maybe not in Melbourne because you're obsessed with whitey ball down there.

To deny this crazy but doesn't surprise me..

I guess that depends on one's definition of "sellout crowds" and it's been a very one-sided sporting series if we are being honest.

I am not some Rugby Union hater. I went to the last game the Wallabies played in Melbourne. I am just calling it the way it is but whatever.

 

[Tygrys]

And yet Rackemann was far enough back in the queue that he wasn't in the original 85 Ashes squad.

We also only got past 300 once, and that was in the game we lost by an innings.

I agree with the talent drain hurting badly, but we were well beaten in that series and New Zealand deserve more credit for being a bloody good team that year.

Rackemann was at the peak of his powers, mid-20s and bowled brilliantly away from home against a South African team in my opinion was the superior to NZ. Took 28 wickets in three tests. And having at the time watched the whole damn NZ series and not missing a single ball (yeah I'm that old), he would have definitely got a match over some of our pie throwers. And he would have made a tremendous difference, especially when you consider we only went down 2:1

Anyhow in my opinion NZ victory will always have a massive asterix against it. Remove the turmoil of the South African rebel tour, keep the depth and they'd still be winless in a test series against Australia in Australia. Sorry it's just the natural order of things.

 

[Pippen94]

Rackemann was at the peak of his powers, mid-20s and bowled brilliantly away from home against a South African team in my opinion was the superior to NZ. Took 28 wickets in three tests. And having at the time watched the whole damn NZ series and not missing a single ball (yeah I'm that old), he would have definitely got a match over some of our pie throwers. And he would have made a tremendous difference, especially when you consider we only went down 2:1

Anyhow in my opinion NZ victory will always have a massive asterix against it. Remove the turmoil of the South African rebel tour, keep the depth and they'd still be winless in a test series against Australia in Australia. Sorry it's just the natural order of things.

Rackerman bowled wayward garbage at test level

 

[big_e]

Rackemann was at the peak of his powers, mid-20s and bowled brilliantly away from home against a South African team in my opinion was the superior to NZ. Took 28 wickets in three tests. And having at the time watched the whole damn NZ series and not missing a single ball (yeah I'm that old), he would have definitely got a match over some of our pie throwers. And he would have made a tremendous difference, especially when you consider we only went down 2:1

Anyhow in my opinion NZ victory will always have a massive asterix against it. Remove the turmoil of the South African rebel tour, keep the depth and they'd still be winless in a test series against Australia in Australia. Sorry it's just the natural order of things.

I honestly don't think he'd have played.

We started with Lawson and McDermott - who led the wicket takers vs West Indies and the Ashes, respectively, so he's not taking their spots.

Maybe he gets Dave Gilbert's spot, but then considering he played vs West Indies, went wicketless, and then they chose Alderman and Rod McCurdy in the Ashes squad, you'd think those guys would have been preferred to Rackemann.

Oh, and it was the first series I watched - the first test started on my 9th birthday. I envy those that grew up watching Ponting and Hayden and Gilchrist as their introduction to cricket.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Don't think many of those rebel players would have made much difference, tbh

Just going to post this. Hadlee would've run through both sides

ah, glad I wasn't the only one who thought this - Tygrys absolutely right to point out that Australia's depth was depleted with the 15 players who chose to break the boycott on sporting events in Apartheid-era Sth Africa.

But that Kiwi team was an organised and cohesive unit; from unheralded - and very New Zealand - captain Jeremy Coney through to John Reid, who averaged 46 at Test level over a too-short 19-game Test career, they had deceptive depth and experience.
Ewan Chatfield nagged away at Aussie batsmen's edges for that entire summer, and even subsequently innocuous spinners like Bracewell and Vaughn troubled our Fragile batting line-up.

Casting the eye over the Rebel tour squads earlier in the day, there were probably 5-6 players who would have challenged for positions in that line-up that was soundly beaten at the Gabba in the 1st Test against New Zealand that year. But Hadlee was operating at the peak of his powers and would have troubled every batting line-up of his generation let alone our mob.

Definitely the high watermark of New Zealand cricket performances on Australian soil; they toyed with us that summer.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Rackemann was at the peak of his powers, mid-20s and bowled brilliantly away from home against a South African team in my opinion was the superior to NZ. Took 28 wickets in three tests. And having at the time watched the whole damn NZ series and not missing a single ball (yeah I'm that old), he would have definitely got a match over some of our pie throwers. And he would have made a tremendous difference, especially when you consider we only went down 2:1

Anyhow in my opinion NZ victory will always have a massive asterix against it. Remove the turmoil of the South African rebel tour, keep the depth and they'd still be winless in a test series against Australia in Australia. Sorry it's just the natural order of things.

Rackemann would have been a handy inclusion, and there were at least half a dozen players who would have been under consideration for selection at Test level had they been available and not overseas putting money before morals.
But I think you undersell that Kiwi outfit at least a little.

A Rackemann or a Graeme Yallop may have stiffened resistance to a degree, but Hadlee was irresistible at the Gabba in a way that maybe only Mitch Johnson and Curtly Ambrose have matched in my lifetime.

And they (NZ) had a solid batting line-up; add Carl Rackemann and Terry Alderman to that Aussie bowling line-up and maybe things do start to even up a little; the Kiwis probably never had a better-balanced batting line-up than this though. You are bang-on in labelling that summer's bowling line-up as pie-throwers though; there seemed to be a long stream of underperforming quicks and wannabe quicks there for a while.

It was one unheralded Simon Davis who started to turn it around for Australia in the ODI triangular series post-that Test defeat to NZ; he stopped the rot is the way I remember it.

John Reid is a funny one, his career trajectory reminds me a bit of Andrew Jones a few years later; New Zealand have often had these types of nearly-champions; Shane Bond an obvious example from a bowling perspective.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Best Kiwi XI - GO

G. Turner
J. Wright
J. Reid
K. Williamson
M. Crowe
N. Astle
B. McCullum
R. Hadlee
D. Vettori
T. Boult
S. Bond

12 A. Jones

 

[PhatBoy]

Such an afl insular mentality - rugby isn't popular here so it can't be elsewhere.

Bledisole pulls over 250k viewers in Sydney - which is a number swans get only for a grand final. My point stands that series has increased in size & profile over past 40 years, with all black dominanting.

Just a bitter afl type who is threatened by any sport which has an international component.

I don’t think anyone has any reason in australia to feel threatened by rugby union unless the concern is for an elitist class based judgement from someone that went to an elite Sydney school.

Rugby has a lot of purist fans that a) are loyal to their team and b) enjoy watching the all blacks play. I hate rugby and even I like watching the all blacks play a little bit. It’s an event, it’s like state of origin: origin football hasn’t been especially watchable for a few years and it still draws huge crowds. Aside from Boxing Day, test cricket isn’t an ‘event’ to begin with. It also takes, traditionally, five days. A bledisloe cup game takes an hour and a half so even if you turn up and don’t see a contest at least seeing uncompetitive sport has only taken a few hours out of your life.

 

[PhatBoy]

Best Kiwi XI - GO

G. Turner
J. Wright
J. Reid
K. Williamson
M. Crowe
N. Astle
B. McCullum
R. Hadlee
D. Vettori
T. Boult
S. Bond

12 A. Jones

Any side without Ross Taylor needs a rethink

 

[big_e]

Rackemann would have been a handy inclusion, and there were at least half a dozen players who would have been under consideration for selection at Test level had they been available and not overseas putting money before morals.
But I think you undersell that Kiwi outfit at least a little.

A Rackemann or a Graeme Yallop may have stiffened resistance to a degree, but Hadlee was irresistible at the Gabba in a way that maybe only Mitch Johnson and Curtly Ambrose have matched in my lifetime.

And they (NZ) had a solid batting line-up; add Carl Rackemann and Terry Alderman to that Aussie bowling line-up and maybe things do start to even up a little; the Kiwis probably never had a better-balanced batting line-up than this though. You are bang-on in labelling that summer's bowling line-up as pie-throwers though; there seemed to be a long stream of underperforming quicks and wannabe quicks there for a while.

It was one unheralded Simon Davis who started to turn it around for Australia in the ODI triangular series post-that Test defeat to NZ; he stopped the rot is the way I remember it.

John Reid is a funny one, his career trajectory reminds me a bit of Andrew Jones a few years later; New Zealand have often had these types of nearly-champions; Shane Bond an obvious example from a bowling perspective.

Calling Geoff Lawson - 180 test wickets - and Craig McDermott - 291 test wickets - pie-throwers is just wrong.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Any side without Ross Taylor needs a rethink

hmm, that's fair; an oversight.

Calling Geoff Lawson - 180 test wickets - and Craig McDermott - 291 test wickets - pie-throwers is just wrong.

2 for 200+ runs between them in that 1st Test, both rightly dropped - our bowling stank that summer; Dave Gilbert was horrible too.

Bruce Reid probably the only dimly shining light once selected to play India.
McDermott actually recalled to the side and then dropped again against India ..

 

[Pippen94]

I don’t think anyone has any reason in australia to feel threatened by rugby union unless the concern is for an elitist class based judgement from someone that went to an elite Sydney school.

Rugby has a lot of purist fans that a) are loyal to their team and b) enjoy watching the all blacks play. I hate rugby and even I like watching the all blacks play a little bit. It’s an event, it’s like state of origin: origin football hasn’t been especially watchable for a few years and it still draws huge crowds. Aside from Boxing Day, test cricket isn’t an ‘event’ to begin with. It also takes, traditionally, five days. A bledisloe cup game takes an hour and a half so even if you turn up and don’t see a contest at least seeing uncompetitive sport has only taken a few hours out of your life.

Reaction here to namedrop of other codes says otherwise

 

[DaRick]

Calling Geoff Lawson - 180 test wickets - and Craig McDermott - 291 test wickets - pie-throwers is just wrong.

Craig McDermott was a tale of two careers.

He debuted too early and was too raw, but when he matured from 1990 onwards, he became a formidable bowler, especially at home. From that time, he would have been in the Hazlewood/Gillespie class.

Geoff Lawson was like Peter Siddle - genuinely sharp in his pomp, but overall was just a solid servant with a few shining moments. He was a better batsman but also a much more disagreeable personality.

 

[Cringle]

Best Kiwi XI - GO

G. Turner
J. Wright
J. Reid
K. Williamson
M. Crowe
N. Astle
B. McCullum
R. Hadlee
D. Vettori
T. Boult
S. Bond

12 A. Jones

Fleming?

I only really started following cricket outside Australia at the end of his career because I’m not 70 years old.

Would he possibly be in consideration?

 

[Carbine Chaos]

C Cairns ahead of Astle as well, for me.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Fleming?

I only really started following cricket outside Australia at the end of his career because I’m not 70 years old.

Would he possibly be in consideration?

Definitely under consideration, particularly on the strength of his captaincy - but I'd have a few batsmen ahead of him ... so; depends how highly you rate his captaincy I suppose ..

 

[Cursed Cat]

C Cairns ahead of Astle as well, for me.

I'd probably put Taylor ahead of Astle; overlooked him when I posted the other day ...

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Australia's biggest problem faced during it's series against NZ was our bowling. We had the likes of Bob Holland, Greg Matthews, Dave Gilbert, Simon O Donnell in our line-up. In South Africa we had Carl Rackemann walking away with an official man of the series with 28 wickets in three test matches. No Australian or South African player came close to him. That inclusion alone would have made a massive difference.

The fact is a number of Australian players performed very well in South Africa. And with Australian cricket being at a fairly low ebb we couldn't afford to have 16 first class players out of our talent pool. Again it's no coincidence that it was at that moment that NZ won it's only test series on Australia soil.

The true low ebb was people accepting money to break the sporting bans on South Africa.

 

[PhatBoy]

The true low ebb was people accepting money to break the sporting bans on South Africa.

It’s very easy to judge players for doing that but they also have to make money.

They’re not politicians or humanitarians they’re cricketers. Have a look at Branded a Rebel regarding the two West Indies tours over there I think you’ll appreciate the perspective

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

It’s very easy to judge players for doing that but they also have to make money.

They’re not politicians or humanitarians they’re cricketers. Have a look at Branded a Rebel regarding the two West Indies tours over there I think you’ll appreciate the perspective

Nope. These people were worse than strike breakers. IIRC players from the Caribbean who took the blood money copped criticism from other WI players.

I know at least two Australians who deeply regretted their involvement in their tours.

 

[PhatBoy]

Nope. These people were worse than strike breakers. IIRC players from the Caribbean who took the blood money copped criticism from other WI players.

I know at least two Australians who deeply regretted their involvement in their tours.

It’s the response of people like you that resulted in West Indies players basically having their lives destroyed afterwards.

Strike breakers?

**** who cares seriously

 

[big_e]

Nope. These people were worse than strike breakers. IIRC players from the Caribbean who took the blood money copped criticism from other WI players.

I know at least two Australians who deeply regretted their involvement in their tours.

Which players?

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

It’s the response of people like you that resulted in West Indies players basically having their lives destroyed afterwards.

Strike breakers?

fu** who cares seriously

People cared about apartheid?... wow, who would have thunk that?