Does our list lack Flag pedigree?

[Zondor]

Pedigree is great. Just ask Shannon Watts and Sam Powers. :stern look

 

[GarnerSmash]

Do you think we are the only team who will see 'natural improvement'? The teams we are competing with will also be fitter and more developed. I have spoken about the striped teams, but then there is Freo who will bounce back and Sydney have the likes of Hannebury, Jack, Reid, Rohan, Smith who will all continue to improve. They are our competition for 6th-8th and none of them are standing still.

Of course that has to be taken into account, but can you categorically say that those teams will be ahead of us in three years with the lists they have? Christ, Bon would be for the tip if he went to the board after being in the job for two seasons and said, "You know what boys, I got it wrong. We aren't on the right track after all and I need at least another year before we push for finals. Let's tank." He and the club have faith in the system they have employed and deserve the opportunity to see it through. They have not yet had a fair crack at it for various reasons.

If we are in so much trouble that we can't afford one lean year than we are in as bad a shape as we were going into '07. Is that really the case?

It is certainly important to consolidate what gains we have made because we don't want to get to the end of 2013 without making significant inroads into our debt, attendances and membership. A crap season now will see all these numbers suffer in 2013. If it happens because we aren't good enough then s**t, we have to wear it, but there will be a serious backlash if it is seen as self inflicted failure for the reward of draft table magic beans.

 

[shiraz]

That's what I like to see MHW. When you want piss, don't ask, take!

 

[Horace]

Who said anything about 'tanking'? I am talking about 'having faith in the kids'. Things like Tarrant to full back for ten straight games. Black to full forward for ten straight games. Hansen to either CHF or CHB for ten straight in the one position. Wright, Anthony, Atley, JMac ten straight in defence each to prove themselves. Harper to a wing and stay there. Ditto Cunnington on the ball. Give everyone half a season in one spot and then reassess and do it over again. Whatever happened to Cruize and Speight? Give them a solid chance to prove themselves and if they don't cut mustard, at least they were given a fair go before being moved on.

As for 'irreperable damage', how much damage did '05 do the pies? '06 Geelong? '08 West Coast? By my reckoning the damage bills were Thomas, Pendlebury and a flag; J Selwood and three flags and Naitanui and Shuey respectively.

Have a read of what you said earlier. I have bolded some bits but essentially you are saying we should slip down from middle of the road to the lower rungs to get a better draft pick. If that's not tanking then I am sadly lacking in any understanding of the term.

And it would not hurt us financially?

Go run that idea past JB and Eugene. Watch them go pale with fear at the thought.

The Solution?

In 2005, Collinwood finished 2nd-bottom and landed Dale Thomas and Scott Pendlebury.

In 2006, Geelong finished 7th-bottom and landed J Selwood.

In 2008, West Coast finished 2nd-bottom and landed Naitanui and Shuey.

You don't have to dwell in the cellar for years like Hawthorn and St Kilda did to land talent. You can do what these clubs did and 'top up' after a season of playing the kids.

The Big Call

We have a superdraft ahead of us. The club is financially secure enough for us to be able to afford one lean season onfield. We have plenty of kids who could use solid gametime in the guts and in key positions. We have a number of players who deserve a full season in one position to make it their own before being turfed.

We have the opportunity right now to top up our list pedigree and get games into kids to set us up for a serious assault in 2013. Or we can plod along like Richmond in the middle of the road and hope by some miracle we somehow snatch a GF somewhere, somehow, from one of the half-dozen other clubs who have the same window as us but more pedigree.

I hope JB, McDonald and Scott are planning further ahead than September 2012. The league only needs one Richmond.

 

[Husk]

Pedigree is great. Just ask Shannon Watts and Sam Powers. :stern look

We really missed an opportunity.

We could have had a Jason Mcartney, Leigh Brown and Shannon Watt forward setup. With Sam Power drilling it onto their chest's.

Unstoppable.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I prefer Chum.

It's so chumpy you can carve it.

 

[MajakHarpeWright]

BT, you are deliberately misconstruing my argument.

There is a genuine difference between development years (see Coll '05) and tanking (see Melbourne v Richmond farce). I'm not saying we should throw games. I'm not even saying we should play players out of position. Quite the contrary, I'm saying let's throw them into their positions now and give them time to see if they are up to it. If that takes us to finals then great, we are doing well. If not we get the next Luke Hodge. Win-win.

It may not be a premiership team but it will be better tham what it has been in the last 5-8 years.

You've got to be kidding me. Simmo, Shagga, Boomer and Smith of '07 would win a match against our current team off their own boots.

 

[MajakHarpeWright]

Pedigree is great. Just ask Shannon Watts and Sam Powers. :stern look

Were they in the stands when Hawthorn won in '08 or when the Wobbles won in '10?

More seriously though, the inexact science of drafting kids has come a loooooong way since we took Watt with a first-rounder. See Ziebell.

(As for the elephant in the room, I still reckon Lachie will come good)

 

[scottywiper]

Two Swallows and a McDonald seems pedigree enough for me!

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Sorry to intrude but aren't "superdrafts" called "superdrafts" because they have so much talent in them, hence eliminating the need to tank?

In the likely event the Roos finish somewhere between 6th and 14th that will net a pick between 5-15 depending on priority picks.

Last "super"-draft you guys got Ziebell with pick 9. Rich went at 7, Vickery 8, Phil Davis 10, Sidebottom 11, Shuey 18, Trengove 22, Zaharakis 23. Redden 25, Beams 29. Shiels 34, Zac Clarke 37 etc

There's serious talent deep into the draft.

Melbourne tanked and got Watts, Blease and Strauss. A superdraft is the last year you'd want to tank.

 

[Old Skool]

Collingwood won a premiership with 3 top shelf players and a bunch of good supporting players. Sydney won a flag with even less.

It all comes down to catering a winning game plan based upon our strengths.

 

[BicBoi]

Sorry to intrude but aren't "superdrafts" called "superdrafts" because they have so much talent in them, hence eliminating the need to tank?

In the likely event the Roos finish somewhere between 6th and 14th that will net a pick between 5-15 depending on priority picks.

Last "super"-draft you guys got Ziebell with pick 9. Rich went at 7, Vickery 8, Phil Davis 10, Sidebottom 11, Shuey 18, Trengove 22, Zaharakis 23. Redden 25, Beams 29. Shiels 34, Zac Clarke 37 etc

There's serious talent deep into the draft.

Melbourne tanked and got Watts, Blease and Strauss. A superdraft is the last year you'd want to tank.

POTY, mhw your off your face

 

[Kimbo]

Top 10 in the B&F? Possible correlation with 'games played'? 8/10 of those have played over 50 games. Swallow (106), Wells (170), Harvey (323), Petrie (199), Goldstein (58), Rawlings (245), Edwards (73), Thompson (72)

Of the only 2 players to have played under 50 games (Adams, Ziebell) they are the most the most experienced of that group. Coincidence?

Players Games Played

Jack Ziebell 45
Leigh Adams 44
Nathan Grima 42
Gavin Urquhart 41
Levi Greenwood 41
Ryan Bastinac 34
Ben Cunnington 34
Sam Wright 32
Liam Anthony 30
Ben Warren 28
Cruize Garlett 25
Shaun Atley 16
Cameron Pedersen 14
Kieran Harper 14
Jamie Macmillan 13
Ben Speight 10
Robbie Tarrant 9
Luke Delaney 8
Cameron Richardson 8
Aaron Mullet 3
Aaron Black 1

 

[Kimbo]

Two Swallows and a McDonald seems pedigree enough for me!

Julian Assange will be pleased to hear this, and so am I.

A much better proposition than Veszpremi for Urquhart.

 

[MajakHarpeWright]

Collingwood won a premiership with 3 top shelf players and a bunch of good supporting players.

Selling them short for mine.

Anyway, let's look at their major ball winners in the GF they won. In order, here are their top 7:

Pendlebury (29 touches) drafted at #5
Shaw (28) F/S
Thomas (27) #2
Swan (26) #58
Ball (25) #2
Sidebottom (25) #11
Didak (21) #3

That's pedigree coming to the fore if ever I've seen it. That GF is a good illustrator of what I am talking about because St. Kilda's best were all first-rounders too.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Give it 12 months MHW and we could potentially have a team that is overall better than 2007. That's the point. There is potentially more depth across all positions on our list now than at any time in the last decade. A squad wins cups now, now the top half dozen. We are yet to see if we have the top end quality due to various factors but they need to take steps this year towards that.

 

[blackkav]

The answer is YES.

 

[GarnerSmash]

The answer is YES.

I love Jeopardy.

The question is ARE YOU A FLOG?

 

[Husk]

Selling them short for mine.

Anyway, let's look at their major ball winners in the GF they won. In order, here are their top 7:

Pendlebury (29 touches) drafted at #5
Shaw (28) F/S
Thomas (27) #2
Swan (26) #58
Ball (25) #2
Sidebottom (25) #11
Didak (21) #3

That's pedigree coming to the fore if ever I've seen it. That GF is a good illustrator of what I am talking about because St. Kilda's best were all first-rounders too.

The reason the Saints lost is because their bottom 6-8 players were spuds.

 

[year of the roo]

The reason the Saints lost is because their bottom 6-8 players were spuds.

Yep and it's why I don't fear what happened to them happening to us. Because we get sensational value out of our rookie and latter draft picks.

The likes of Mullett, Pedo, Gibson, McMahon, Thompson, Delaney x2, Grima, Thomas, Campbell, Anthony, Daw. These guys could be Premiership players one day, who knows. And they are all considerably better than the s**t St Kilda suited up for a GF match.

 

[MajakHarpeWright]

Yep and it's why I don't fear what happened to them happening to us. Because we get sensational value out of our rookie and latter draft picks.

The likes of Mullett, Pedo, Gibson, McMahon, Thompson, Delaney x2, Grima, Thomas, Campbell, Anthony, Daw. These guys could be Premiership players one day, who knows. And they are all considerably better than the s**t St Kilda suited up for a GF match.

How does the whole us not beating the Saints for years thing fit into that narrative?

Go through the Saints' 09 and 10 GF teams and tell me which of those players you listed you reckon would get a game.

Seriously.

 

[scottywiper]

How does the whole us not beating the Saints for years thing fit into that narrative?

Go through the Saints' 09 and 10 GF teams and tell me which of those players you listed you reckon would get a game.

Seriously.

St Kilda's top six has been much better than ours for several years. That has enabled them to do funky things like playing Brett Peake and Zac Dawson in finals.
Their bottom six is much worse than ours.
Soon both out top six and bottom six, and all points in between, will be better than theirs.

 

[Old Skool]

St Kilda's top six has been much better than ours for several years. That has enabled them to do funky things like playing Brett Peake and Zac Dawson in finals.
Their bottom six is much worse than ours.
Soon both out top six and bottom six, and all points in between, will be better than theirs.

They are going to plummet within 24 months.

I'm predicting them to reach Sydney early 90's type levels of shitness.

 

[Husk]

Lenny Hayes averaged 16 possessions a game in his 3rd year.

Goddard 15.

Montangna 11.

Seem a little familiar?

 

[Mr Inappropriate]

Define Pedigree? If you were to ask me Majak Daw is the perfect physical specimen. He is a natural athlete. His talents know no bounds. Yet for some idiotic reason he was passed by every club and picked up as a rookie. And now we have a coach who is more interested in teaching Daw life lessons rather than unleashing his natural talent and playing him in the big league. Yet a player like Lachlan Hansen, who has by and large struggled over his tenure at the North Melbourne Football Club, is given every opportunity to play as a senior footballer as he was a number 3 selection in a national draft. Pedigree can only get you so far. Call me inappropriate but performances are what count.