Drawing a line with home intruders and self defence

[skipper kelly]

"I like to encourage intruders"

 

[flashmanvc]

Animal instincts. Humans, like dogs, are territorial; on an individual level we have fences around our homes and, on a societal level, we have borders around our nations because we instinctively want to keep "the other" away from our peoples and property.

I try and imagine myself in a situation where I find an intruder late at night and I can feel aggression welling up inside. It's hard to see a positive outcome in such a situation. It is not and should not be legal to kill or beat the crap out of an intruder who has surrendered or is fleeing but, gee whiz, it would be hard to overcome those millions of years of evolution and let him go when you might even have been jacked in the face and the juices are really flowing.

Interesting to note in the stories mentioned above it seems the intruder was physically larger.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Force
The amount of force necessary to protect oneself or one's property. Reasonable force is a term associated with defending one's person or property from a violent attack, theft, or other type of unlawful aggression. It may be used as a defense in a criminal trial or to defend oneself in a suit alleging tortious conduct. If one uses excessive force, or more than the force necessary for such protection, he or she may be considered to have forfeited the right to defense. Reasonable force is also known as legal force.

A person is generally justified in using force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm if the person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. The person is also generally justified in using such extreme force to prevent or terminate another's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling, if: (1) the entry is made or attempted in a violent manner and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent personal violence to himself or another then in the dwelling, or (2) he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

A person may use such force not disproportionate to the objective as he believes on reasonable grounds to be necessary to prevent the commission, continuance or completion of an indictable offence or to effect or assist in effecting the lawful arrest of a person committing or suspected of committing any offence.

Pretty sure that's it. I haven't had to recite it for a few years now. Crimes Act 1958 Sect. 462A.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

To a degree, sure. But suggesting that someone breaking into your house automatically gives you the right to kill or maim them is bullshit.

The intruder is brandishing a knife, you reach behind the door and produce a shotgun. The intruder on seeing the shotgun, drops the knife, you drop him with one barrel.

Police arrive, 'It all happened so fast, he was brandishing a knife and started to move towards me so I shot him.'

 

[Gough]

The intruder is brandishing a knife, you reach behind the door and produce a shotgun. The intruder on seeing the shotgun, drops the knife, you drop him with one barrel.

Police arrive, 'It all happened so fast, he was brandishing a knife and started to move towards me so I shot him.'

Then you might need to explain why you had an unsecured gun on the premises though.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

I would get a cricket or baseball bat.

You can argue all you like about why you killed the intruder with an exotic weapon, but better to just severely bruise them with an item commonly found in the home.

Another thing we were told when having to recite sect. 462a. It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[GreyCrow]

Then you might need to explain why you had an unsecured gun on the premises though.

That was actually raised in a newspaper article here in SA a few years ago. The advice was better 12 months or a fine than 20 years or 5-8

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Then you might need to explain why you had an unsecured gun on the premises though.

It wasn't unsecured. It was legally stored until I heard noises at the front of the house at which point I removed it from the legal storage locker.

The intruder should have moved through the house quicker instead of trying to be quiet and sneaky. He gave me time to remove it from its storage by his attempts at stealth.

 

[Procrastinator35]

It wasn't unsecured. It was legally stored until I heard noises at the front of the house at which point I removed it from the legal storage locker.

The intruder should have moved through the house quicker instead of trying to be quiet and sneaky. He gave me time to remove it from its storage by his attempts at stealth.

 

[Taylor]

It wasn't unsecured. It was legally stored until I heard noises at the front of the house at which point I removed it from the legal storage locker.

The intruder should have moved through the house quicker instead of trying to be quiet and sneaky. He gave me time to remove it from its storage by his attempts at stealth.

Thats a lot of effort and process to go through to try and claim a heat of the moment defense, I mean it is a lot of effort to go through to argue that you didn't intend to use it.

Storing the gun and ammunition separately is sold as keeping people safe but I think it is more about putting the legal yellow brick road down for prosecutors arguing the home owner intentionally killed an intruder.

 

[Chief]

Thats a lot of effort and process to go through to try and claim a heat of the moment defense, I mean it is a lot of effort to go through to argue that you didn't intend to use it.

Storing the gun and ammunition separately is sold as keeping people safe but I think it is more about putting the legal yellow brick road down for prosecutors arguing the home owner intentionally killed an intruder.

Really?

 

[Chief]

Another thing we were told when having to recite sect. 462a. It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I'd say it is better to be in neither situation.

 

[Taylor]

Really?

Yes. I'm very cynical and expect laws to have other motives.

You won't have a civilised society if there is a free for all inside private residences.

 

[Chief]

Animal instincts. Humans, like dogs, are territorial; on an individual level we have fences around our homes

This wasn't always the case and isn't the case in some cultures.

 

[Ron The Bear]

After being broken into on a day I'd originally planned to take a sickie, there are two strategically-placed baseball bats in the house. No intruder's gonna walk out.

 

[fleabitten]

Considering how much trouble I have making a proportional response when someone insults my kids ("He said you're ugly? **** that little piece of mother****ing shit!"), I'm pretty sure no intruder would leave my house alive if my kids were home.

 

[chelseacarlton]

I have a paslode nail gun in the robe a cupla feet from the bed.
Just push the battery down and you're good to go.
I know a few of my trades mates that have the same setup.
Enter our house and we'll nail your arse to the floor.

 

[GreyCrow]

I have a paslode nail gun in the robe a cupla feet from the bed.
Just push the battery down and you're good to go.
I know a few of my trades mates that have the same setup.
Enter our house and we'll nail your arse to the floor.

''You gotta ask yaself , did I put up this gyprock with 5 nails or 6''

 

[chelseacarlton]

''You gotta ask yaself , did I put up this gyprock with 5 nails or 6''

Lol
I'd probably just plaster over him,give it a few licks of paint and nobody would be none the wiser!.

 

[Run n Spread]

Never been broken into. Can't imagine the psychological impact it would have let alone the fear if you felt your safety was in jeopardy. I imagine flight or fear would very much kick in. Personally I've only dealt with an intruder once when my hotel room was broken into. I was awake at the time and standing near the door and some bloke walks in (kicks my door in) and I'm standing there with nothing but a towel on. I was that shocked I simply F** Off and the bloke just stares for a minute and leaves.

I was that stunned and it was over that quickly before I really had time to process what happened. If my home was broken into I'd probably crap myself and hide in a cupboard somewhere or attack whoever with whatever. Like I say flight or fight.

 

[Weiterbot23]

All this stuff in the media about the gang from Melbournes far East (no point glorifying their name) is pretty scary.

It's all well and good if they just want to steal the iPad and car etc, happy to hand it over in a peaceful exchange, can get it all back on insurance.

But all this stuff about them bashing people with bats and hammers is pretty concerning.

Are you better off just sitting back and cooperating in the hope they won't hurt you or your family or is it better to have a knife under the bed and get on the offensive straight away?

 

[tandino]

I have a paslode nail gun in the robe a cupla feet from the bed.
Just push the battery down and you're good to go.
I know a few of my trades mates that have the same setup.
Enter our house and we'll nail your arse to the floor.

You get a guy close with a framing gun and he's not going home to his kids.

 

[10571z]

If someone breaks into your house especially with kids home you should be able to defend it in anyway possible. If the intruder is killed well good. One less junky for the 99% law abinding public to worry about.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

All this stuff in the media about the gang from Melbournes far East (no point glorifying their name) is pretty scary.

It's all well and good if they just want to steal the iPad and car etc, happy to hand it over in a peaceful exchange, can get it all back on insurance.

But all this stuff about them bashing people with bats and hammers is pretty concerning.

Are you better off just sitting back and cooperating in the hope they won't hurt you or your family or is it better to have a knife under the bed and get on the offensive straight away?

Usually i'd say just hand shit over, but in the case of a home invasion i'd say securing yourselves in a defensible position (such as a bedroom or a bathroom) with something heavy is the better option. the majority of crooks won't intentionally rob a house while someones in it. If they are just there to rob the joint odd's are upon realising someone else is in the house most thieves would leg it.

Suffice to say home invasions are a different beast and it's reasonable to assume if an intruder doesn't bolt for the door the moment they realise you're there, then they intend to do you harm.

that said, forget knives in the midst of things it's going to be dark you're going to shitting bricks and the bastards probably armed. you want something that's a reasonable size like a cricket or baseball bat, hell even a heavy steel curtain rod or a lamp. its easy to explain to the police why you would have it and because they aren't traditionally used as weapons and as such it's easier to mount a defense that you were acting in defense and never intended to cause grievous harm to the intruder.

Ideally you don't want to come face to face an engage the intruder hence locking you and your loved ones some place that
A doesn't block an entrance or exit and B only has one door (if it has a lock even better)

This way in case the intruder is only their for cash or keys your out of his way and its no problem, let them take your shit tv's and laptops can be replaced.
however if there shoulder charging your door then you know they're coming after you and intend harm. so if you manage to survive the fight that will result all the evidence will show that the intruder was coming at you.

best advice no matter what the outcome no matter how cool you are after, play like you're confused and unsure what happen and don't tell the police anything other then, "he just kept coming, i was so scared" then get yourself a good lawyer before conducting a police interview.

 

[Weiterbot23]

Some very good points there bloods.