Moved Thread Dunstall vs Lockett vs Carey vs Ablett vs Lloyd vs Franklin vs J Brown - Who is the most Elite of them all?

[cliffdrabble]

Carey wasn't a flop in grand finals. He just never dominated in any of them but he certainly played his part.
In many ways, similar to Ablett in the 1992 grand final.

Dunstall's record in grand finals is excellent. Hawthorn usually won comprehensively and the likes of Buckenara, Brereton also booted bags of goals. Dunstall only ever played in one losing grand final where he kicked 0 goals (first season of football).

If we are talking specifically grand finals, Sticks Kernahan averaged 4.2 goals in grand finals, including 7 in a losing effort against Essendon. His overall finals record is sublime considering he played centre half-forward.
More impressively, his State of Origin record is unbelievable. At the pinnacle of State footy when it was no different to finals intensity, Kernahan booted 66 goals in 16 matches for South Australia.

IMO , Kernahan was the best contested mark I have ever seen, remarkable also because I seem to remember he played with contact lenses.
Was however , possibly the worst singer of all the players mentioned.

 

[Waterhouzin]

Pavlich def in the Brown and Lloyd league, 700 goals from the latter part of his career after playing in defence and mid before that (winning multiple AA’s along the way).
Not close to Locket, Dunstal, Ablett and Buddy though, I think those guys are very much a step above.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Bump

 

[aussierulesrules]

There is no right answer. You could argue this until the end of time.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

There is no right answer. You could argue this until the end of time.

No. Just no.

 

[peetoo]

Like most early 2000 post this was just 7 pages

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Dunstall was a gun. Easily could be number 1.

 

[M Malice]

Peter Hudson.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Laughable comments? I watched both many times tear my side apart.

Dermot Brereton said he played FF for Hawthorn in a game and kicked 8 goals and said he could not believe how easy it was with the skill of players kicking it to him. Hawthorn had the best side in the League for most of Dunstall's career and scored heavily. Locket at the Saints had almost the opposite.

Saying Lockett is better is no disrespect to Dunstall. Thinking that a FF who has kicked more goals in his career whilst playing for 90% of the time in seriously inferior teams is not a stretch . I think Dermot Brereton and Danny Frawley may agree with me.

I also watched Peter Hudson in many games in his career and rate him on the same level as Dunstall. Only a devastating knee injury stopped Hudson from reaching the record of goals scored. And a king hit from the club of 'king hit merchants' in St kilda stopped Hudson from reaching the 'most goals in a season' record.

Agree with this. How it gets in there is ridiculously important.

One example for us at the moment is Cooper Sharman. When we’re in “clog the game up” mode, he rarely touches the ball, but then when we take the hand break off and play balls-to-the-wall type footy, he can look a million dollars. Because of how much better and faster the ball is going in there.

Dunstall for years had acres of space on the wide expanses of Waverley, with Jarman, Platten, Pritchard and co putting the ball down his throat, while Plugger was mostly playing on much smaller mud-heaps, like Moorabbin, and regularly getting double-teamed.

And most of Dunstall’s goals came on the lead, whereas all you had to do was put the ball in Plugger’s general area and he’d outmark anyone 1-on-1, while also being like a freight-train on the lead.

And a deadly kick, both for goal, and on the pass.

 

[My Tilly]

Dunstall couldn't play anywhere else on the ground to save himself.
At least Lockett spent plenty of time in the ruck in his earlier days.

Carey and Ablett were the complete opposite. Those guys played in a plethora of positions throughout their entire careers. Even in Ablett's final season of footy, he was playing multiple positions to cater to Gary Ayres' 'reshaping for the future policy'.

 

[MadMaxx]

Dunstall couldn't play anywhere else on the ground to save himself.

Didn't need to.

Was really really really good at kicking goals from day dot. And we had an all time team around him, so why on earth would we want to try him elsewhere. His first five years from being a rookie netted 36-77-94-132-138 goals...

Do ya reckon Yabby would then say.. "Lets try him at Centre half Back. Mew, you are our new full forward!"

Footy didn't work that way back then.

 

[hr_23]

THE GOOD OLD DAYS!!!

 

[My Tilly]

Didn't need to.

Was really really really good at kicking goals from day dot. And we had an all time team around him, so why on earth would we want to try him elsewhere. His first five years from being a rookie netted 36-77-94-132-138 goals...

Do ya reckon Yabby would then say.. "Lets try him at Centre half Back. Mew, you are our new full forward!"

Footy didn't work that way back then.

Certainly could have helped to have some experience of playing in a different position once Hawthorn began to taper off by the mid 90's.

He will go down as one of the greatest goal kickers of all time but arguably the first player you would pick to struggle in today's era due to his lack of versatility.

 

[hr_23]

Certainly could have helped to have some experience of playing in a different position once Hawthorn began to taper off by the mid 90's.

He will go down as one of the greatest goal kickers of all time but arguably the first player you would pick to struggle in today's era due to his lack of versatility.

Plugger runnung up & down a wing all day says hello

 

[Chip Scab1]

Hear what you're saying and I agree, however, you can't really judge a player in this scenario (without the following key stat) until you really attain their Goal Assist numbers. It wasn't really a stat when they played, but Carey as a past it, injured old man at the Crows still averaged over 1 per game one year. I would love to see the combined figures for each player.

I personally believe when Carey was 20-30, he'd have a GA number per game approaching 4. I personally doubt there's ever been a player who 'created' more goals through direct or indirect assists.

Gary
Wayne
Anthony
Jason

Lance

Hudson
Pratt

 

[Cyclops]

Dunstall couldn't play anywhere else on the ground to save himself.
At least Lockett spent plenty of time in the ruck in his earlier days.

Carey and Ablett were the complete opposite. Those guys played in a plethora of positions throughout their entire careers. Even in Ablett's final season of footy, he was playing multiple positions to cater to Gary Ayres' 'reshaping for the future policy'.

Don't recall Plugger playing ruck, he was 6'2" and dreadfully unfit. Played most of his games literally startng on the goalsquare. Maybe he pinch hit? Definitely wrong to say he spent much time rucking at all.

Dunstall started on hff in his first few and played "defensive forward" superbly, perhaps the first big man to do so. Far more well rounded than Lockett. Lockett still the best ff because of his phenomenal strength and kicking.

 

[MadMaxx]

Certainly could have helped to have some experience of playing in a different position once Hawthorn began to taper off by the mid 90's.

He will go down as one of the greatest goal kickers of all time but arguably the first player you would pick to struggle in today's era due to his lack of versatility.

And Lockett would struggle because of his lack of fitness and defensive pressure
Ablett would struggle due to his lack of professionalism (And extra curricular habits)

On that, Dunstall was arguably the most defensively minded of the great forwards. Laying tackles, chase downs... Most of them didn't bother

He was plenty versatile.

 

[My Tilly]

Don't recall Plugger playing ruck, he was 6'2" and dreadfully unfit. Played most of his games literally startng on the goalsquare. Maybe he pinch hit? Definitely wrong to say he spent much time rucking at all.

Dunstall started on hff in his first few and played "defensive forward" superbly, perhaps the first big man to do so. Far more well rounded than Lockett. Lockett still the best ff because of his phenomenal strength and kicking.

Yes, Lockett pinch hit in ruck in those earlier years. He even played defense during matches in 1985-1987.
Lockett was 191cm tall or 6ft'3 and quite fit and agile during the 1980's. Had a solid vertical leap in which he often took some of the best marks of the year.

I honestly don't recall Dunstall playing half forward flank.
Most of the games I have stored, he starts off at full forward. Perhaps he drifted between positions in his first season?

Ablett would struggle due to his lack of professionalism (And extra curricular habits)

Didn't seem to bother him in the 80's and '90's' when football became professional. In fact, widely considered the best player of his generation so for all the talk about lack of professionalism (better physique than 75% of league footballers at the time), that particular criticism doesn't hold much weight.

Think of Jordan de Goey now. Worse training ethic than just about anyone from the 1980's and yet, has made a name for himself without any issues.
Likewise Stringer.

 

[MadMaxx]

Don't recall Plugger playing ruck, he was 6'2" and dreadfully unfit. Played most of his games literally startng on the goalsquare. Maybe he pinch hit? Definitely wrong to say he spent much time rucking at all.

Dunstall started on hff in his first few and played "defensive forward" superbly, perhaps the first big man to do so. Far more well rounded than Lockett. Lockett still the best ff because of his phenomenal strength and kicking.

I thought the same, so I looked up his stats. 189 Career hit outs across 19 Seasons

More concerning was the 142 career tackles ;-)

 

[My Tilly]

I thought the same, so I looked up his stats. 189 Career hit outs across 19 Seasons

More concerning was the 142 career tackles ;-)

Watch the actual games opposed to going by statistics.
I never said he was a good ruckman but he certainly played in that position. In fact, go check out the 1987 State of Origin game at Football Park.
He shifted into the ruck in the second half despite being beaten. He made up for it with his work around the ground. More nimble than his 197cm-199cm opponents.

 

[MadMaxx]

Yes, Lockett pinch hit in ruck in those earlier years. He even played defense during matches in 1985-1987.
Lockett was 191cm tall or 6ft'3 and quite fit and agile during the 1980's. Had a solid vertical leap in which he often took some of the best marks of the year.

I honestly don't recall Dunstall playing half forward flank.
Most of the games I have stored, he starts off at full forward. Perhaps he drifted between positions in his first season?



Didn't seem to bother him in the 80's and '90's' when football became professional. In fact, widely considered the best player of his generation so for all the talk about lack of professionalism (better physique than 75% of league footballers at the time), that particular criticism doesn't hold much weight.

Think of Jordan de Goey now. Worse training ethic than just about anyone from the 1980's and yet, has made a name for himself without any issues.
Likewise Stringer.

Not sure how old you are, but Gazza is about 5 years older than me. He was a regular at all the late night clubs in the late 80's and well into the 90's. Redheads, Saratoga, 161, Friday Saturday, Sunday

The rumours of what he got up to are all very much true. It was all enhanced by party powder mate

 

[My Tilly]

The rumours of what he got up to are all very much true. It was all enhanced by party powder mate

Sounds like some of the current Hawthorn boys who are regularly spotted down and around Sorrento

You'd have to be a bit thick in the head if you didn't think athletes from 80's and 90's didn't enjoy the night life.

 

[MadMaxx]

Watch the actual games opposed to going by statistics.
I never said he was a good ruckman but he certainly played in that position. In fact, go check out the 1987 State of Origin game at Football Park.
He shifted into the ruck in the second half despite being beaten. He made up for it with his work around the ground. More nimble than his 197cm-199cm opponents.

Dunstall only played up a bit in 85, Lethal's last year. From 86 he was a stay at home Full Forward

 

[MadMaxx]

Sounds like some of the current Hawthorn boys who are regularly spotted down and around Sorrento

You'd have to be a bit thick in the head if you didn't think athletes from 80's and 90's didn't enjoy the night life.

Sure. They all do it more these days than back then I'd say.

Difference was, there was no internet and iphones back in those days, so they didn't hide it... At all.

These days, it is all in private spaces

 

[Cyclops]

Yes, Lockett pinch hit in ruck in those earlier years. He even played defense during matches in 1985-1987.
Lockett was 191cm tall or 6ft'3 and quite fit and agile during the 1980's. Had a solid vertical leap in which he often took some of the best marks of the year.

I honestly don't recall Dunstall playing half forward flank.
Most of the games I have stored, he starts off at full forward. Perhaps he drifted between positions in his first season?



Didn't seem to bother him in the 80's and '90's' when football became professional. In fact, widely considered the best player of his generation so for all the talk about lack of professionalism (better physique than 75% of league footballers at the time), that particular criticism doesn't hold much weight.

Think of Jordan de Goey now. Worse training ethic than just about anyone from the 1980's and yet, has made a name for himself without any issues.
Likewise Stringer.

Dunstall played a handful at hff at the very start. And maybe 1 in defence but that mightve been reserves? I did actually see him play a bit, and Plugger too, I used to go to Saints games to see Lockett and Winmar, my favourite non Pies. I managed to go to most grand finals in the 80s, Hawthorn had no fans so tickets were plentiful. Young single bloke in the 80s, Saturday footy, good times.

Lockett was definitely not versatile, a half in a SOO game and some forward ruckwork maybe? There's a video on Reddit for some h&a game where he takes a centre bounce.

He was a barrel of guts from the start and was often puffing, his cheeks would ho quite red, didn't matter. Still the best FF. He had a very quick first couple of steps, iron trap hands and deep footy knowledge for bodywork. I guess 6 3 is almost ruck size but he was never agile and didn't have a giant leap either.

The comment about professionalism applies to Lockett and Ablett differently i think.

Ablett super fit, I believe he trained hard. However both Ablett and Lockett were famously uninterested in team meetings, scouting etc "homework". I have seen interviews were team mates mentioned how they often had no idea who they would be playing the next week. Apparently Ablett kept an eye on Locketts goal kicking.

Plugger preffered time to himself, racing his dogs etc., Ablett was a speed demon and in the era of mobile phones he'd have ben sacked pretty quickly, or even done prison time. He spent only a year or two at Hawthorn but racked up serious trouble: they knew what they had but felt the trouble wasn't worth it.

Funny story my cousin rented the flat Ablett lived in, this was a few years later though, he saw Ablett's name in the old rent book at the estate agents. 400 and something Tooronga Road.