Dustin Martin or Tom Scully

[ThePuppetMaster]

Any proof of this?

Jack Watts board.

hmmm touche

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Riled up? I'm far from riled up, if anything I'm quietly confident Martin is the better footballer.

you were slightly riled up my good sir

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Hardly being bitchy poppet. Why so defensive?

Maybe this is why?: 21 of the 42 so far who have voted for Scully are Melbourne supporters, compared with 15 of 53 voting for Martin being Richmond fans. So 38-21 Martin's way in neutral eyes. Melbourne fans are the ones who seem to need reassurance. As Mighty Tiger said, we're very confident in Martin.
.

so am i about scully

i'm not being defensive, i admitted martin is currently a better player... doesn't mean scully won't become better

why would you ignore that part?

and if scully doesn't become as good as martin does, what do i care?? i know that the odds are he will still be a star

 

[richoatthedisco]

Fair enough mate. No one's going to do anything other than back their young gun to become a senior gun. We'll have plenty of time over the years to debate the topic, so I'm happy to leave it at that for now.

 

[cannons]

He didn't imply anything. He was just ignorant to the fact that Martin has as much chance to improve over the pre-season as Scully.

Man I've been posting a lot of Melbourne hate today. Oh well.

I didn't mention Martin's pre-season work because I have no idea how he is going, given that I neither attend nor read about Richmond sessions.

I was merely commenting on the improvements that Scully has made, and my opinions on who I think will be a better player have nothing to do with training performances, I just think Tom is an elite talent who will be a top 5 AFL player at some point in the future due to his combination of attributes. Whilst I rate Martin highly, I don't rate him to the same degree.

Just to add some fuel to the fire, though, I believe Scully is more likely to improve over pre-season simply because he's a model pro who always seeks to get the best out of himself.

He's already better. I'd be amazed if that changes.

Well, that's your opinion, and it's one to which you are entitled.

I tend to think that time will prove you wrong, though.

 

[MightyTiger]

I didn't mention Martin's pre-season work because I have no idea how he is going, given that I neither attend nor read about Richmond sessions.

You say this and then.....

I was merely commenting on the improvements that Scully has made, and my opinions on who I think will be a better player have nothing to do with training performances, I just think Tom is an elite talent who will be a top 5 AFL player at some point in the future due to his combination of attributes. Whilst I rate Martin highly, I don't rate him to the same degree.

Just to add some fuel to the fire, though, I believe Scully is more likely to improve over pre-season simply because he's a model pro who always seeks to get the best out of himself.

This, just a massive WTF.

Well, that's your opinion, and it's one to which you are entitled.

I tend to think that time will prove you wrong, though.

You honestly claim to know nothing about Martins pre season, but then you go onto say Scully will be the better player because he is more likely to improve over pre season.

And just o add fuel to the fire, Scully is a soft outside mid with poor skills.

 

[cannons]

You honestly claim to know nothing about Martins pre season, but then you go onto say Scully will be the better player because he is more likely to improve over pre season.

And just o add fuel to the fire, Scully is a soft outside mid with poor skills.

I don't know anything about Martin's pre-season, but I do know that Scully is an amazing trainer for someone so young, and I would be surprised if Martin trained at the same level and intensity.

I am making an assumption here, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption to make.

Also, just to make this clear because you've shown that reading comprehension isn't your strong point, I didn't say Scully will be the better player because he'll improve over pre-season, just that he's likely to improve his game to a greater extent than Dustin over pre-season becuase of his approach to training.

To me, Tom will ultimately be the better player because he's more talented and has an amazing set of attributes.

 

[MightyTiger]

I don't know anything about Martin's pre-season, but I do know that Scully is an amazing trainer for someone so young, and I would be surprised if Martin trained at the same level and intensity.

I am making an assumption here, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption to make.

Also, just to make this clear because you've shown that reading comprehension isn't your strong point, I didn't say Scully will be the better player because he'll improve over pre-season, just that he's likely to improve his game to a greater extent than Dustin over pre-season becuase of his approach to training.

To me, Tom will ultimately be the better player because he's more talented and has an amazing set of attributes.

Originally posted by Cannons.
I believe Scully is more likely to improve over pre-season simply because he's a model pro who always seeks to get the best out of himself.

You seriously are embarrassing yourself here, so you say you know nothing about Martins pre season, but then go onto say Scully will improve much more then Martin over a pre season.

And your assumption would be wrong, Martin has had a fantastic pre season, in fact being one of our best on the training track.

He did get a rocketing from Dimma though after the end of season break for slacking off a bit on the required training the club had asked of him to do on his break.

However he has since rectified that by being a standout on the training track and even starring in the practice match up at Bulleen.

To me, Martin will ultimately be the better player because he is more talented and has an amazing set of attributes.

 

[Peck]

Just to add some fuel to the fire, though, I believe Scully is more likely to improve over pre-season simply because he's a model pro who always seeks to get the best out of himself.

A fair bit off topic, but this comment reminded me of some thoughts I was having earlier.

It seems very strange that late draft picks often become better than the no. 1 draft pick. Its likely to happen due to the number of players drafted after the number 1 pick, but IMO it happens far too often.

My theory is that players don't work as hard before they are drafted, simply because they don't see AFL as a career as much as the really high draftees do. Hence, they come into the AFL, and work a lot harder, and improve significantly. Whilst the super high draft picks are already working very hard to be good at footy, so they don't undergo this instant improvement.

Could be wrong but ehh... just a theory.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

You honestly claim to know nothing about Martins pre season, but then you go onto say Scully will be the better player because he is more likely to improve over pre season.

And just o add fuel to the fire, Scully is a soft outside mid with poor skills.

he didn't say scully will be a better player, he said HE believed scully would end up a better player

last time i checked people were allowed to have their own opinions and express them

for ****'s sake

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

A fair bit off topic, but this comment reminded me of some thoughts I was having earlier.

It seems very strange that late draft picks often become better than the no. 1 draft pick. Its likely to happen due to the number of players drafted after the number 1 pick, but IMO it happens far too often.

My theory is that players don't work as hard before they are drafted, simply because they don't see AFL as a career as much as the really high draftees do. Hence, they come into the AFL, and work a lot harder, and improve significantly. Whilst the super high draft picks are already working very hard to be good at footy, so they don't undergo this instant improvement.

Could be wrong but ehh... just a theory.

it is an interesting theory, but i wouldn't argue that recently many no.1 picks aren't in the top 5 players of their draft... so im not sure why you say it happens FAR too often

06 Gibbs - top 5 player
05 Murphy top 3 player
04 Deledio top 3 player
03 Cooney best player
02 Goddard best player
01 Hodge top 3 player (but it's the superdraft, almost any other draft he would have been the best player)
00 Riewoldt best player

07, 08, 09 and 10 are obviously all too early to tell... even 06 is pushing

that is actually an excellent return for number one picks... so what i'm trying to say is...

i think your theory is wrong

and also a bit simplistic, training ethic is there or it isn't... every player increases their intensity 10 fold when becoming a full time footballer.

you ever wonder why you see top 10 picks succeed a lot of the time??

1. good work ethic
2. very talented players

simple

 

[cannons]

You seriously are embarrassing yourself here, so you say you know nothing about Martins pre season, but then go onto say Scully will improve much more then Martin over a pre season.

And your assumption would be wrong, Martin has had a fantastic pre season, in fact being one of our best on the training track.

He did get a rocketing from Dimma though after the end of season break for slacking off a bit on the required training the club had asked of him to do on his break.

However he has since rectified that by being a standout on the training track and even starring in the practice match up at Bulleen.

To me, Martin will ultimately be the better player because he is more talented and has an amazing set of attributes.

My assumption doesn't sound like it was wrong, given that Dustin was obviously at least somewhat unprofessional in following the schedule that was given to him. It sounds as if he started from a lower base than he should've due to a lack of discpline.

Scully, conversely, has done all was required of him and more, simply because of the way in which he approaches his football. As such, he would've started at a higher base and continued to improve, whereas Dustin would've been catching up due to his initial laziness.

It's good to hear that Dustin is starting to take training a bit more seriously, though, as it would be a shame to see him waste his talent.

A fair bit off topic, but this comment reminded me of some thoughts I was having earlier.

It seems very strange that late draft picks often become better than the no. 1 draft pick. Its likely to happen due to the number of players drafted after the number 1 pick, but IMO it happens far too often.

My theory is that players don't work as hard before they are drafted, simply because they don't see AFL as a career as much as the really high draftees do. Hence, they come into the AFL, and work a lot harder, and improve significantly. Whilst the super high draft picks are already working very hard to be good at footy, so they don't undergo this instant improvement.

Could be wrong but ehh... just a theory.

Firstly, I don't think late draft picks 'often' become better than the #1 pick. In recent times, the #1 pick has always ended up a very good player.

Secondly, I'm not sure I agree with your theory entirely. In some cases, that may be correct, but the opposite is probably true for some players as well (i.e. the top picks know they'll be drafted, so they don't work as hard, whereas the fringe draftees work extremely hard to give themselves the best possible chance of making it).

To be honest, I don't think you can put late draftees and hig draftees all within the same category, it really is dependent on the personality and approach taken by a given individual.

EDIT: Also agree with the points made by TPM.

 

[Demon 86]

I tend to agree, especially in relation to Scully.

From what I've seen and heard over pre-season, he has improved quite a bit in terms of both his kicking and his frame. Moreover, his professionalism is simply outrageous for someone his age, in that he operates at the highest possible intensity from start to finish and is always looking to do the best he possibly can.

Even though I rate Martin highly and enjoy his physicality, I would be absolutely shocked if he ended up being a better player than Scully, and as you said, I think next year we'll start to see why.

Yeah because Melbourne players are the only ones improving there game over the pre season.

Don't see where he said or even implied that.

Well if you had of read his post, the only thing he mentioned was how Scully was improving certain parts of his game so therefore he would be better then Martin next year and for the future.

So going by that comment does Cannons think Martin is doing SFA to improve his game? I mean a player improving his self over pre season, no way.

Well I can't speak for Cannons in terms of what he was thinking, but you still haven't shown us where he said that Scully was the only one improving this pre-season.

To state an opinion that one players improvement will take him ahead of another is not to say the other player won't improve- I think you're just being a little bit overly sensitive.

He didn't imply anything. He was just ignorant to the fact that Martin has as much chance to improve over the pre-season as Scully.

Man I've been posting a lot of Melbourne hate today. Oh well.

This.

Massive self ownage- can you please now admit (well technically you already have) that you were wrong and Cannons did not imply that Martin wasn't improving?

 

[MightyTiger]

I tend to agree, especially in relation to Scully.

From what I've seen and heard over pre-season, he has improved quite a bit in terms of both his kicking and his frame. Moreover, his professionalism is simply outrageous for someone his age, in that he operates at the highest possible intensity from start to finish and is always looking to do the best he possibly can.

Even though I rate Martin highly and enjoy his physicality, I would be absolutely shocked if he ended up being a better player than Scully, and as you said, I think next year we'll start to see why.

He didn't imply anything. He was just ignorant to the fact that Martin has as much chance to improve over the pre-season as Scully.

Man I've been posting a lot of Melbourne hate today. Oh well.

I didn't mention Martin's pre-season work because I have no idea how he is going, given that I neither attend nor read about Richmond sessions.

I was merely commenting on the improvements that Scully has made, and my opinions on who I think will be a better player have nothing to do with training performances, I just think Tom is an elite talent who will be a top 5 AFL player at some point in the future due to his combination of attributes. Whilst I rate Martin highly, I don't rate him to the same degree.

Just to add some fuel to the fire, though, I believe Scully is more likely to improve over pre-season simply because he's a model pro who always seeks to get the best out of himself.



Well, that's your opinion, and it's one to which you are entitled.

I tend to think that time will prove you wrong, though.

I don't know anything about Martin's pre-season, but I do know that Scully is an amazing trainer for someone so young, and I would be surprised if Martin trained at the same level and intensity.

I am making an assumption here, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption to make.

Also, just to make this clear because you've shown that reading comprehension isn't your strong point, I didn't say Scully will be the better player because he'll improve over pre-season, just that he's likely to improve his game to a greater extent than Dustin over pre-season becuase of his approach to training.

To me, Tom will ultimately be the better player because he's more talented and has an amazing set of attributes.

This.

 

[Peck]

it is an interesting theory, but i wouldn't argue that recently many no.1 picks aren't in the top 5 players of their draft... so im not sure why you say it happens FAR too often

06 Gibbs - top 5 player
05 Murphy top 3 player
04 Deledio top 3 player
03 Cooney best player
02 Goddard best player
01 Hodge top 3 player (but it's the superdraft, almost any other draft he would have been the best player)
00 Riewoldt best player

07, 08, 09 and 10 are obviously all too early to tell... even 06 is pushing

that is actually an excellent return for number one picks... so what i'm trying to say is...

i think your theory is wrong

and also a bit simplistic, training ethic is there or it isn't... every player increases their intensity 10 fold when becoming a full time footballer.

you ever wonder why you see top 10 picks succeed a lot of the time??

1. good work ethic
2. very talented players

simple

Yeah, I think it would probably apply to a small number of players TBH.
I more meant top 10 draft picks I guess. Just worded it all wrong. Though I do think our number 1 draft picks aren't as sure things as say in the NBA. Which I think is weird.

Lately its gotten a lot better though.

But mm, footy is a lot more of a team game, so its harder to notice the best players.

Where I notice it is when players that are drafted at the very end of the draft end up better than players from the top 10-20 picks from the same draft. Not really saying that it happens all the time, just that it happens.

Probably could have worded it a lot better.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Yeah, I think it would probably apply to a small number of players TBH.
I more meant top 10 draft picks I guess. Just worded it all wrong. Though I do think our number 1 draft picks aren't as sure things as say in the NBA. Which I think is weird.

Lately its gotten a lot better though.

But mm, footy is a lot more of a team game, so its harder to notice the best players.

Where I notice it is when players that are drafted at the very end of the draft end up better than players from the top 10-20 picks from the same draft. Not really saying that it happens all the time, just that it happens.

Probably could have worded it a lot better.

yeah fair enough, that makes a lot more sense

it will always happen, but as you said lately the overwhelming trend is for player taken high to make the most of their opportunities (or at least look like doing it)

 

[Demon 86]

I more meant top 10 draft picks I guess. Just worded it all wrong. Though I do think our number 1 draft picks aren't as sure things as say in the NBA.

I know you're just using the NBA as an example- but it's worth noting that most NBA players are 21 or so when drafted, plus nearly all of them come from the college system meaning it's far easier to benchmark their performances than say comparing TAC v SANFL...

Your point still stands but thought I'd point that out still

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

Yeah, I think it would probably apply to a small number of players TBH.
I more meant top 10 draft picks I guess. Just worded it all wrong. Though I do think our number 1 draft picks aren't as sure things as say in the NBA. Which I think is weird.

I know what you mean't by this but the NBA probably wasn't the best example.

Olowakandi.
Kenyon Martin.
Kwame Brown.
Greg Oden.

Even Yao Ming's career is basically over without achieving anything. And this is isn't including busts like Fizer, Milicic, Williams etc

 

[}>-DEMON-<{]

To me Martin having 41 more contested poss, and kicks 50% of the time, compared to Scullys 43% kicks, and Martin still has less clangers and a higher disposal Efficiency rate, just tips this in Martins favour for me.
normaly the inside mids handball more and the outside mid kick more, so for Martin to kick more and have better efficiency is quiet remarkable, when being compared to a player of Scully quality.

midfield players who play in tight are hard to find, but when you get a good one, you could build a whole midfield around them.

I love Martin, Just ashame he is not a Bomber.

Scully is right in at the packs, he is the one getting his hands on it and firing it out, and taking the high pressure clearance kicks where 8 blokes are in arms reach, he is also the one throwing his face onto opponents boots in those sitautions to keep the ball in dispute, an outside player he is not

 

[Demon 86]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...in-back-on-track/story-e6frf9jf-1225991632727

Well well well... Looks like Cannons was right after all!

RICHMOND coach Damien Hardwick says young midfielder Dustin Martin has learnt his lesson after returning from a post-season break out of shape.
Hardwick ackowledged reports that Martin had come back out of condition from the November break were correct, but he said the 19-year-old was back on track.

And thus the debate on who trains better is over.

 

[MightyTiger]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...in-back-on-track/story-e6frf9jf-1225991632727

Well well well... Looks like Cannons was right after all!



And thus the debate on who trains better is over.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...in-back-on-track/story-e6frf9jf-1225991632727

And in the same article he goes onto say.

"He's been in terrific form thus far, we had a scratch match last Friday and he probably had about 30 touches in 20 minutes of play so we're really pleased with the way he's going."

 

[Demon 86]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...in-back-on-track/story-e6frf9jf-1225991632727

And in the same article he goes onto say.

So what? We know he's a good player.

We also now know he's not as professional a trainer/athlete as Scully.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...in-back-on-track/story-e6frf9jf-1225991632727

And in the same article he goes onto say.

that has no relevance to his training attitude

plus is almost definately exaggerated unless he got the ball 1 and a 1/2 times a minute

although against richmonds midfield ...

 

[smasha]

Martin plays for Richmond and Scully wanted to play for Richmond.
Draw.

I've nicknamed him Tom "Tiger" Scully.

He will be a great player.

Look at all the players that barracked for Richmond but ended up at other clubs.

Pretty much all stars.

Crawf,Tim Watson,Fev,Travis Cloke-the list goes on.

It's good to be the king!

 

[The Mighty Boosh]

Martin plays for Richmond and Scully wanted to play for Richmond.
Draw.

I've nicknamed him Tom "Tiger" Scully.

He will be a great player.

Look at all the players that barracked for Richmond but ended up at other clubs.

Pretty much all stars.

Crawf,Tim Watson,Fev,Travis Cloke-the list goes on.

It's good to be the king!

Are all Richmond fans such winners? Can't believe that's the best list you could come up with. Watson the only one I'd consider associating with my club. I guess Martin fits in there though- good player but dumb as dog shit.