Fate? Read into it what you like

[Bloodstained Angel]

thanks for the clarification macca

...but I don't agree with that one either.

Look at the crisis' that Organised religion is facing in the West.

No priests, thinning and ageing congregations, a moral crisis in the Catholic Church in the West.

the list goes on and on.

... and a corresponding explosion of interest in alternative religions (Bhuddism is the fastest growing religion in the world) and alternative ways tpwards spiritual redemption.

Are you seriously suggesting that all the millions or people who from all around the world who are bailing out of Chritian religions are doing so because their faith is challenged by personal tragedy ?

hmmmm - I don't know about that one macca, I think maybe you are drawing a long bow there.

Rather, I think people are abandoning traditional style Christianity for the same reasons that I have.

Its just to much to ask educated post-modern secular Liberals (like you and me) to just 'have faith' in what is a patently absurd dooctrine.

Of course many people abandon thier beliefs for the reasons outlined, most of my brotrhers and sisters abandoned their faith when our father died of cancer as a 49 year old. Of this things happen.

But I'm suggesting that it is not the real explanantion as to why so many many people all around the world are bailing out of organised religious doctrines.

cheers

 

[Blues2001]

Whoops! Just posted under Fat Red's (my brother) name. Here is the original message:

Originally posted by M29


Why did the nazi kill the jews then? Not becuase of their religon I suppose.
There will was/is religon.

The Nazis killing of the jews was much more racially than religiously based. The Nazi's didn't like them being in their country, they didn't like the way they looked, the way their noses were shaped, the way they made money and where successful and held jobs of importance. It was much more that than religion - the Nazi's, despite coming from Protestant and Catholic backgrounds claimed to not be religious anyway.

 

[Blues2001]

BSA, after reading this thread (and it is a very involved thread), I was wondering if you stand by your claim that all people with religious beliefs being fools. I think that is a foolish statement in itself, and pretty much insulting and prejudiced.

Were your parents fools for bring you up a Catholic, is your own player Darryn Cresswell a fool because he has been known to make the sign of the cross on the footy field, are people such as Macca and I fools for believing in God? Of course not, it is our beliefs - just like it is your belief that God doesn't exist. Would you be happy if I called you a fool for NOT believing in God?

 

[Macca19]

Originally posted by Boof458


If the Power win the Grand Final then I will start to worry!

If Port Power win the premiership there will be about 30 days of terror for everyone. If Port Magpies win it too to pull of an amazing double, then there would be 365 days of terror for all of South Australia

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

For a start Blues2001

I never said I don't belive in God.

The question of the universe somehow being created and controlled by a single concious being is a tantalising one to say the least.

Of course I don't know the answer to that question and I probably won't ever know the answer.

What I don't believe in is conventional religious dogmas - which are a load of superstitious mumbo jumbo.

Taking Christanity as an example.

I do not belive that Jesus was the son of God (although I do believe in the factual person in history known as Jesus the Nazarene)

I do not belive the word of 'God' is tye Bible

I do not belive Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven

I do not believe in an afterlife (but again, I acknowledge that I can't be certain of this) or in a place like Heaven, or Hell for that matter.

I don't belive in any of this stuff, as I said before - its superstitious mumbo jumbo and to actually embrace these concepts is asking an otherwise rational human being to 'have faith'

I'm sorry but I don't have faith. I simply cannot accept that a guy called "god" has omnipotent mystical power to defy the laws of physics.

To me, its just nonsense.

Do I think Cresswell is a fool for being a Christian - yes, I do.

Do I think my parents were fools for being Christians and wasting all that time and money foir bringing me up in the church ? - yes I do, and I've told my mother that many times

Sorry to keep going on about this but I have my beliefs, and you have yours.

Just as you are entitled to belive in "God" (I presume you mean the Christian God) I feel I am perfectly entitled to call you a fool for doing so.

And over the past few days, plenty of people have lined up to call me a fool and an idiot for saying that.

Thats fine, I'll cop that fairly on the chin because it was me who started it in the first place.

I'm open to any intelligent suggestion about a greater omnipotent being that we may commonly and conveniently refer to as "God"

But don't even suggest to me that the Bible is where its at because that is a load of cobblers - all of it.

cheers

 

[RacerX]

BSA your argument seems to have changed tack from earlier on. I'd almost swear you said, or at least strongly implied, that you were atheist and anyone who believes in any version of spirituality was a fool.

Anyway, now I find myself agreeing with you more and more. Like your opinion of church doctrine. Sometimes it doesn't seem to match Jesus' teachings or in fact my own ideas of morality. Things like papal infallibility for one, attitude to birth control being another.

 

[The Truth]

Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes


With one sentence he has basically called 6 billion people fools.

Try halving that you crud.

Religion is for weak minded people.

 

[TheMase]

Originally posted by RacerX
Anyway, now I find myself agreeing with you more and more.

It seems Dan's little theory about the more you learn, the more you 'pull away' from religion, is catching on ....

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

I haven't looked back to verify, but if I did say I was an atheist, then that was most definitley a mistake and I apologise for any confusion caused.

Macca, and others have made the point that it is impossible to prove (or disprove) the existance of 'GOD'

I accept that, because it is the great unknown and we shall never arrive at a definite truth about tis.

My gripe is with dogmatic religious belief systems. You know what I mean - the sort fairy stories that say things Jesus was born from a virgin confused: ) or that Mohammed the Prophet was visited by the Arcangel Gabriel in a dream, or that the Rainbow Serpent created the great Australian land, or the Bible (King James version I presume ) is the word of 'GOD'

all that kinda stuff - its all just a bunch of silly fairy stories that in my opinion have ansolutely no basis in fact whatsoever.

So I'm not an atheist, and I'm not even sure whther agnostic is an accurate description of my beliefs either.

I'm a follower of Jesus the Nazarene though. That is for certain.

There was such a person, and in his 30-odd short years on earth he preached a radical new philiosophy based on kindness, mercy and humility.

He also most certainly invaded the Great Temple in Jerusaleum on or about Easter Wednsday in 33 AD and caused a riot by driving out all the stock brokers and buiness men who worked in the joint.

The Jewish religious authorities nailed him to a cross for his trouble.

i believe all that, and I like to follow the legacy of Jesus as closely as I can.

BUT Jesus was man who lived and died in what is now modern day Israel 2000 years ago, nothing more, nothing less.

- he was not born from a virgin (WTF?)
- he was not the son of God (whoever God is ?)
- he did not perform miracles
- he did not rise from the dead
- he did not 'ascend' into 'heaven'
- and he most definitely will not be coming back to earth to save us all from hell and damnation

He did none of those things because of course as we all know it is physically impossible to do any of that.

Thats why I utterly reject the conventions of Christianity as nothing more than superstitious mumbo jumbo.

'He's not the messiah, he's just a naughty boy' is really what I am trying to say I guess.

cheers

 

[M29]

Originally posted by The Truth


Try halving that you crud.

Religion is for weak minded people.

Oho, I can see another flame thread starting.

 

[Dan26]

Good post BSA,

Agree 100% with everything you have written.

I should probably qualify what I said earlier in the thread. I may have said I don't believe in God. That is not necessarily true. I don't believe in the fairy story of the bible as you put it, and I don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. That is nonsesne.

I do believe, however, that something (i.e not necessarily "someone") created the universe in which we live. Before the big bang, what was there? How did it start? There can't be a physical or chemical explanation because the laws of physics and chemistry only came into being when the universe was formed, not before it. So, what prompted the universe to be formed in the first place.?

Someone or something must have created the universe. Whether it is a God, or some sort of "power" I don't know, but to that extent I believe in a God.

But in reality, I don't know if God is the right word. But some sort of power must be responsible for the creation of the universe.

 

[Macca19]

Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel

My gripe is with dogmatic religious belief systems. You know what I mean - the sort fairy stories that say things Jesus was born from a virgin confused: ) or that Mohammed the Prophet was visited by the Arcangel Gabriel in a dream, or that the Rainbow Serpent created the great Australian land

Im interested to know if you believe the Aboriginal Dreamtime stories or if you think they are also fairy stories like the Bibles stories. You know like the one about the rainbow serpent...and the ones about how a giant snake weaved its way across australia and its tail created the Murray River...and how an Aboriginal guy dropped his club and thats what created the Bluff here in Adelaide.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

yep macca - that stuff as well

Its all just mythology and superstition, thats why I thought I would include the reference to the Aboriginal Dreamtime stories as well as Christianity.

I don't want to be seen to ranting against the Christian viewpoint alone.

All of this stuff is simply unbelievable - but as I keep saying - I don't have 'faith' so I'm not naturally inclined to believe this kinda stuff.

Wonderful stories, sure, but at the end of the day they only stories.

cheers

 

[madboy]

It's hard to know how to begin this post, but when I'm told I'm a fool for believing what I believe, its hard to stay silent.

(Though I suppose Dan, BSA, Boof etc are just getting some of their own back. After all, the Bible does say "The fool says in his heart 'There is no God'")

Dan backs up his arguments with Science. Is Dan a student of this Science? If he is, he'd be aware that science is in a state of constant change. My old Physics lecturer once told me that only about 25% (this figure is made up, but it was less than half, maybe even as low as 10%) of what he taught would still be believed by the time we were his age! In fact, the belief that Science holds 100% of the answers has, historically, come only decades before a major Scientific revolution. (Theory of Relativity)

BSA has said that he decided against religion after being brought up a Catholic and finding that there really wasn't anything there for him. Sadly, this is an all-too-common tale. The church of today is miles away from where it should be (the church of the first century).

The cause of most wars is not religion, though it is a major cause. The main cause, however, would be land, followed by national pride. WW2 wasn't started until Germany invaded other countries. Japan din't enter the war for any other reason than land - they wanted to increase their empire. George Bush is appealing to America's sense of national pride, not to its sense of religion.

Finally, I totally condemn the vandals who are attacking mosques following this tragedy. I hope and pray that they aren't Christian.

 

[Blues_Brat]

Originally posted by madboy
Finally, I totally condemn the vandals who are attacking mosques following this tragedy. I hope and pray that they aren't Christian.

Theyre sickos.

Blaming Islam for the terrorism attacks is based on predjudice and ignorance. Islam, like Christianity has its foundations in peace, however it's the lunatics that twist it to suit their own ends. Amazing how many people who attack Muslims for their faith forget the horror comitted in the name of "Christianity".

I had ZERO respect for George Dubya, although I still think he is a sabre rattler looking for a war, he changed my opinion of him with this:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Arab_and_Muslim_Americans/

Hopefully people will take his lead on this.

 

[Boof458]

Originally posted by madboy
.

(Though I suppose Dan, BSA, Boof etc are just getting some of their own back. After all, the Bible does say "The fool says in his heart 'There is no God'")

.

I do believe I withdrew my comment about religious people being "foolish".

People have the right to believe what they want to believe without being harrassed about it.

On a lighter note however, the bible comment about fools denying God reminds me of the Life of Brian

Brian: I am not the Messiah
Man in Mob: Only the true Messiah denies he is the messiah
Brian: All right then, I am the messiah
Mob (chant): He is the messiah he is the messiah

 

[madboy]

Originally posted by Boof458


I do believe I withdrew my comment about religious people being "foolish".

Sorry for that misunderstanding, Boof458.

I'd also like to add that I don't want this situation to escalate into an all-out war, but its hard to see any likely alternatives.

 

[Olmy]

Originally posted by pedrothelioness
Could the city of god perhaps be the middle east..after all jerusualm is the birthplace of jesus..so maybe theyre aiming more towards isreal/palestine?

Hate to be pedantic, but Jesus Christ was actually born in Bethlehem, which still stands as a city today!

Jesus travelled to Jerusalem on a number of occasions, most notably being when he road in on a donkey's back, with people laying palm leaves down before him, to herald him as the King of the Jews. This is remembered as Palm Sunday. Only a week later, Jesus Christ was crucified, after the population called for his execution at a "trial" (of sorts) held by Pontius Pilate.

 

[Olmy]

It's funny how people will acknowledge, that in their own finite wisdom, that yes, there is a force which is greater than all of us, who created the earth. Yet at the same time, people refuse to accept that this power would then indeed be able to do such things that people label as "fairy tales" (ie: allowing a virgin to give birth to a baby, etc.).

It's also strange, that people like to choose which parts of the Bible, they will and will not believe, considering that as an historic document, it is 100% accurate, and similarly contains many other provable scientific facts that were unknown by science until very recently.