Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

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Werewolf

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Which is why 'ism'ism is stupid. If you pigeon hole yourself into a body of thought such as feminism, you should be judged with the worst of your similar kind.
Not really, it depends on the context. What's considered feminism in one country may be common sense in another. Every group has nutjob followers, including MRA's (who I generally sympathise with) :eek:

You can believe in the concepts of feminism without being a feminist
True. Modern western feminism reminds me of this...



* Apologies to the lady in the photo if she doesn't think like that :p
 

DemonTim

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Not true at all. Who you culturally identify as is completely up to the individual. Third generation Australian immigrants still identify themselves as Greek or Italian etc. Just one of unlimited examples.
I think it's a bit different to what he's suggesting. While I don't agree, he's saying that saying "I'm a feminist" means you subscribe to all ideas under that banner. You're comparing it to saying you're Australia, and being judged based on the worst actions by Australians.
I wouldn't say labelling yourself a feminist means you subscribe to all feminist ideals, there is multiple schools of feminism. Labelling yourself a liberal feminist, I would argue means you subscribe to the ideas of liberal feminism, for example
 

coerced

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Dominant or most outspoken, controversial and therefore 'reported' strain?

It's been my experience that the vast majority who call themselves feminists don't subscribe to the extreme schools of thought you are talking about. There are plenty out there who do, of course.
Argument from anecdote doesn't really stand for much. Of course there are and have been plenty of kinds of feminists. Germaine Greer is one, belonging to a group of feminists now called 'second wave'. A group of feminists in the UK tried to make her a pariah in the movement for saying Caitlyn Jenner is not a woman.

The Suffragettes were another group of feminists. Ruby Hamad decries these feminists for not including 'people of colour'.

Ford and Hamad don't write for some fringe feminist zine with small distribution numbers. They write for one of the biggest media outlets in the country. Their 'extreme school of thought' is mainstream.
 

ShanDog

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Levels of 'extremism' within the feminist movement are all open to interpretation and the level of writers' reach is only a very subjective measure of their influence. I used a personal anecdote because, while I haven't looked, I doubt there is a definitive study on how many kinds of feminist are out there and how to classify them.
 

Leeda

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Yes and then you have those who are subjected to anti feminism as well as those who
regard feminism as absolutely anti personal.

Just parroting the idea that it is always a conundrum as well as being a test of someones worthiness as a human female.

Kind of not making sense but trying to make some sense of what isn't always understandable by those who aren't in the middle. :(
 

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I think it's more complex than that. I think the intersectional identity politics that dominates left wing thinking is a result of both the successes and failures of the old left. That is, much of Western society has absorbed left wing policies (welfare state, universal healthcare, multiculturalism, reduced working hours, women's right to vote, work, etc) yet none of that has resulted in universal distribution of wealth, and the systems that went further in implementing left wing ideas (eg Soviet countries) collapsed entirely.

Capitalism absorbed socialist policies, implements them reasonably successfully, and yet there still exists inequality. We're closer to utopia than any group of humans who have ever lived, and it still doesn't seem right.

Modern feminism, along with the other left wing identity politics, is a reaction to that. It is still aimed at dismantling capitalism, but with out the universal aspect that the old guard of left wingers believed in.
I'm a fan of intersectionalism in some respects and i would be hesitant to automatically lump intersectionalism in with the politics of these identarians. There is a difference between using intersectional ideas for critique of society and culture; and basing your whole political dialogue around identities (whatever they may be). Intersectionalism is yet to prove it's an effective tool at finding real world solutions to all the problems it finds and it's capacity as a tool of change is going to be tested by the way it incites sectarianism within some.

I see identity politics as being wholly consistent with and a reaction to globalization and cultural homogenization. As meaningful differences are broken down between people, we see cultural and behavioral differences cease to be uniform markers for distinguishing ones self and as individuals recede away from ethnicity and nationality towards a revivalist or revisionist concepts of race and gender.

I think they're not capable of dismantling a system in which they actively have a profession in critiquing and fine tuning.
 
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Eastern Rangers

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Levels of 'extremism' within the feminist movement are all open to interpretation and the level of writers' reach is only a very subjective measure of their influence. I used a personal anecdote because, while I haven't looked, I doubt there is a definitive study on how many kinds of feminist are out there and how to classify them.
Naturally feminism tends towards being more obscure. So what some might concede to be radical for society proper is merely the latest orthodoxy.
 

Eastern Rangers

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Not true at all. Who you culturally identify as is completely up to the individual. Third generation Australian immigrants still identify themselves as Greek or Italian etc. Just one of unlimited examples.
Maybe on a census it's up to the individual. Id have thought it's partly up the individual. One could say history and society place tangible limits on what you're likely to consider yourself.
 

ShanDog

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Maybe on a census it's up to the individual. Id have thought it's partly up the individual. One could say history and society place tangible limits on what you're likely to consider yourself.
Within reason I suppose, but from macro 'cultural identification' (Australian, black, Jew etc) through to localised cultures (gamer, skater, authoritarian, liberal etc) we all choose our identification. How others perceive us is a totally different thing again. It's all pretty interesting.
 

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Farm Boy

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He does raise some good points. The CCTV and electronic monitoring is a practical solution for serious offenders (female). They aren't a danger to the community in the same way a serious male offender would be. But it is still a very small population of females, and would hardly ease the flow of overcrowding. Most of the overcrowding is due to smaller, pettier crimes (as the author rightfully points out), but it is only recently that women have been getting locked up for things like centrelink fraud (which is on the rise big time). IMO it could easily be argued that leniency shown in the past, has just contributed to that problem (centrelink fraud), so I wouldn't advocate for a softer stance on petty crimes, because I don't think it is a good deterrent.
 

Illinois Nazi

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He does raise some good points. The CCTV and electronic monitoring is a practical solution for serious offenders (female). They aren't a danger to the community in the same way a serious male offender would be. But it is still a very small population of females, and would hardly ease the flow of overcrowding. Most of the overcrowding is due to smaller, pettier crimes (as the author rightfully points out), but it is only recently that women have been getting locked up for things like centrelink fraud (which is on the rise big time). IMO it could easily be argued that leniency shown in the past, has just contributed to that problem (centrelink fraud), so I wouldn't advocate for a softer stance on petty crimes, because I don't think it is a good deterrent.
He raises no good points at all. To take your example of CCTV and electronic monitoring - it is a practical solution that is suitable for SOME female offenders and SOME male offenders. The fact that it may be suitable for a higher proportion of the females does not of itself make it more suited to a female offender than a male. Each case in both genders needs to be assessed individually.
 

coerced

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Reads to me like a reasonably well researched article that has little if anything to do with feminist theory. BORK may I suggest that the feminists have you thinking like a feminist.
 

Farm Boy

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He raises no good points at all. To take your example of CCTV and electronic monitoring - it is a practical solution that is suitable for SOME female offenders and SOME male offenders. The fact that it may be suitable for a higher proportion of the females does not of itself make it more suited to a female offender than a male. Each case in both genders needs to be assessed individually.
Actually, he suggests that monitoring and CCTV be reserved for serious female offenders, which isn't a high proportion at all. In comparison to serious male offenders, the risk to the community isn't as concerning. Putting ideological stances aside for a moment, do you truly believe that a serious female offender is at the same level of risk to the community, as a serious male offender?
 

Farm Boy

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Reads to me like a reasonably well researched article that has little if anything to do with feminist theory. BORK may I suggest that the feminists have you thinking like a feminist.
That could go either way IMO. On one hand the author suggests punishing serious offenders (female) with deprivation of work and property (which will never fly with the feminists), but on the other hand, he proposes there only be ONE jail in Australia for female offenders (which is completely ridiculous). So on the last point you could say that he could skew to feminist theory. In all, I think he is trying to be pragmatic, and offer practical solutions, but is coming from a feminist base. I am not knocking the guy either, I think he raises some good points, and I agree with many, the electronic monitoring seems inevitable (regardless of seriousness or gender). But I don't agree with his main premise, in that we shouldn't imprison petty criminals (female), I think we should, I still think imprisonment (whether male or female) is the best form of deterrence. Not all will agree I am sure.
 

romeohwho

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That could go either way IMO. On one hand the author suggests punishing serious offenders (female) with deprivation of work and property (which will never fly with the feminists), but on the other hand, he proposes there only be ONE jail in Australia for female offenders (which is completely ridiculous). So on the last point you could say that he could skew to feminist theory. In all, I think he is trying to be pragmatic, and offer practical solutions, but is coming from a feminist base. I am not knocking the guy either, I think he raises some good points, and I agree with many, the electronic monitoring seems inevitable (regardless of seriousness or gender). But I don't agree with his main premise, in that we shouldn't imprison petty criminals (female), I think we should, I still think imprisonment (whether male or female) is the best form of deterrence. Not all will agree I am sure.
Well, if that is the best form of deterrence and numbers in female prison population are rising? And he says there is no data to support 'severe penalties and low crime'.
 
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Illinois Nazi

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Actually, he suggests that monitoring and CCTV be reserved for serious female offenders, which isn't a high proportion at all. In comparison to serious male offenders, the risk to the community isn't as concerning. Putting ideological stances aside for a moment, do you truly believe that a serious female offender is at the same level of risk to the community, as a serious male offender?
It depends on what exactly their offending behaviour was. Don't assess their risk by "male" or "female", assess it according to their behaviour!
 

Procrastinator35

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Yes
You don't think Kath Knight and Catherine Burney should have been locked up?
Your post reminded me of this individual: Interviewed by Jana Wendt I think, for 60 minutes, way back when!


Aileen Wuornos
A.K.A. – The Florida Highway Killer

Between 1989 and 1990, Aileen Wuornos murdered seven men. Her notorious killing spree ended up on the big screen with the movie Monster. Aileen supported herself, and her lover Tyria, through prostitution. She claimed her murders were carried out in self-defense against men who were attempting rape – but the court felt the bullet-ridden bodies told a different tale. She was executed by the state of Florida by lethal injection in 2002.
 

Procrastinator35

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In her defense, Aileen was insane & she had an horrific childhood, full of rejection & sexual abuse, surrounded by suicide & alcoholism....Doubt she ever knew what love was....******* parents hey.

Here's a piccy of her at 12, before the demons (parents/grand-parents ghosts) descended down upon her.

 
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