Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

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FlowersByIrene

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That could go either way IMO. On one hand the author suggests punishing serious offenders (female) with deprivation of work and property (which will never fly with the feminists), but on the other hand, he proposes there only be ONE jail in Australia for female offenders (which is completely ridiculous). So on the last point you could say that he could skew to feminist theory. In all, I think he is trying to be pragmatic, and offer practical solutions, but is coming from a feminist base. I am not knocking the guy either, I think he raises some good points, and I agree with many, the electronic monitoring seems inevitable (regardless of seriousness or gender). But I don't agree with his main premise, in that we shouldn't imprison petty criminals (female), I think we should, I still think imprisonment (whether male or female) is the best form of deterrence. Not all will agree I am sure.
It may not be a good deterrent but its a good punishment, ruins an individuals life. So i'm happy with that.
 

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Tas

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There can be only one...
"After Cologne, Feminism is Dead"

http://quillette.com/2016/01/18/after-cologne-feminism-is-dead/

"If the response of European governments to the continent-wide crisis figureheaded by Cologne was by turns disappointing and disgusting, the response of the feminist left was soul-crushingly depressing- a thesaurus of hypocrisies which went beyond self-parody, untethered itself from rational thought, and proceeded to float around the comment pages and the Twitter feeds like a rogue blimp."
 

coerced

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"After Cologne, Feminism is Dead"

http://quillette.com/2016/01/18/after-cologne-feminism-is-dead/

"If the response of European governments to the continent-wide crisis figureheaded by Cologne was by turns disappointing and disgusting, the response of the feminist left was soul-crushingly depressing- a thesaurus of hypocrisies which went beyond self-parody, untethered itself from rational thought, and proceeded to float around the comment pages and the Twitter feeds like a rogue blimp."
Interesting article. What does modern left-wing feminism have going for it these days?
 

Tas

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Interesting article. What does modern left-wing feminism have going for it these days?
Not a whole lot, despite attempts by high profile celebrities to promote feminism, it is at an all time low. The problem is the self-appointed spokespeople are first progressives and a distant second, feminists. This means equality isn't the overriding objective of the movement any longer.

Feminism is almost dead, only 18% of American women identify as feminists, only 7% of UK women identify as feminists, nobody can even be bothered to do a legitimate poll in Australia there is so little interest.

Most people believe in equality but the vast majority of people do not believe that is the objective of the modern third wave feminism movement any longer.
 

JoseMourinho

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Feminism is dead? Better close this thread then.

What happens to religion?
Well, it is dying. You have a bunch of whackjobs stealing the label and tarnishing a truly great movement.

The fact that they are not proud that Maggie Thatcher despite how strong she was in parliament is a disgrace. Everyone can have their reservations about Thatcher (RE: Poll Tax) but you cannot deny that she was a strong woman in parliament, was not afraid of a challenge (the negus interview comes to light here) and was the first female PM of England.

I reckon that was when Feminism began to lose its way and lurched further and further to the left and you end up with the whackjobs that you have today.
 
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CM86

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Well, it is dying. You have a bunch of whackjobs stealing the label and tarnishing a truly great movement.

The fact that they are not proud that Maggie Thatcher despite how strong she was in parliament is a disgrace. Everyone can have their reservations about Thatcher (RE: Poll Tax) but you cannot deny that she was a strong woman in parliament, was not afraid of a challenge (the negus interview comes to light here) and was the first female PM of England.

I reckon that was when Feminism began to lose its way and lurched further and further to the left and you end up with the whackjobs that you have today.
Dying or being killed?

Either way, you raise an interesting point.

But wouldn't you say the problem with modern feminism, is that they would support a female, regardless of hypocrisy?


While it's fantastic that a woman was able to become PM, and such a strong and powerful woman at that.
It doesn't mean you have to like her, or what she did, does it? Just because she's a woman?

Don't forget, feminism is about equality. Not women vs men regardless of the outcome.

Modern feminism, people might argue, support women regardless of how it affects everyone. Which seems to be the main problem people have with 'feminism'.
 

Rustin Cohle

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Expecting feminists to be proud of Thatcher, a woman who spent her entire tenure as PM gutting everything that they held close while complaining about women who worked instead of staying at home with the kids...

LOL
 

kickazz

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Claire Lehman has a good piece in The Drum today:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-22/lehmann-treating-individuals-as-pawns-in-a-political-game/7107022

Touches on something I have observed but been unable to articulate regarding a problem with the current state of the third wave - that it has become very much an exercise in conforming, of leveraging situations in pursuit of a rigid set of thoughts as opposed to understanding situations and how they effect the liberty and opportunity of individuals. Almost like the trade union movement in that the movement itself seems to be more important than the people it once aimed to fight for.
 

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Gough

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kickazz

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Yeah for those wanting an intelligent discussion on the topic, the man is best ignored. There may be a semblance of a valid point in there somewhere but gosh it's hard to unlock amongst the horses**t.

Sad, a couple of years before he became ALP leaderhe was actually good to listen to.
 

kickazz

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I've found it odd that someone who has taken the very worst of times, and tried to turn it into something positive should be so reviled in some corners. I hope Cate McG wins AOTY, an aborigine, a DV victim, and a trans woman. Conservatives will explode.
Don't want to sound like an a-hole here, but what has she done or achieved? Being a victim or minority is not grounds for such an award.

Stress that I'm not being a dick about it, and that overcoming those circumstances are for sure a factor in the award; but we need to hear more about their contributions and achievements if we want Australians across the board to buy into the award, the person who won / wins it, and the cause they are pursuing. The last two winners are good examples where their achievments have not been adequately heralded to the public.
 

Gough

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I've always thought the award pretty pointless in the first place. To single out one particular person as being the most worthy Australian in a year seems odd to me, especially when so many do unheralded work. Trolling aside, I'd give it to Cate for her cricket writing alone.
 

kickazz

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I've always thought the award pretty pointless in the first place. To single out one particular person as being the most worthy Australian in a year seems odd to me, especially when so many do unheralded work. Trolling aside, I'd give it to Cate for her cricket writing alone.
It's kind of pointless I agree, if we end up getting into a "who deserves it most" discussion. A bit like the Brownlow, one can argue others are more deserving, but you can rarely argue the winner didn't have an outstanding year that deserves recognition.

But I still like it, as you do often get to learn about someone doing something good, and even the nomination process gets us to think about finding out about and acknowledging these Australians
 

JoseMourinho

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While it's fantastic that a woman was able to become PM, and such a strong and powerful woman at that.
It doesn't mean you have to like her, or what she did, does it? Just because she's a woman?

Don't forget, feminism is about equality. Not women vs men regardless of the outcome.

Modern feminism, people might argue, support women regardless of how it affects everyone. Which seems to be the main problem people have with 'feminism'.
Feminism is about equality and the third wave have veered away from that goal and want more.

Thatcher wasn't exactly anti-feminist. i mean there were placards saying we want woman right's not a right-winged woman.

She broke the female stereotype and probably did a big step for females everywhere. The left did not like that at all since they had been the champions of it up until then.

If the left wanted to continue championing it, they would have to make her look like that she is not one of us. In irony, say that she has been brainwashed by men or something of the sort. Which they have done quite effectively. It is exactly what the democrats did to Mitt Romney in their adds, claiming that he was not one of us.
 

CM86

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Feminism is about equality and the third wave have veered away from that goal and want more.

Thatcher wasn't exactly anti-feminist. i mean there were placards saying we want woman right's not a right-winged woman.

She broke the female stereotype and probably did a big step for females everywhere. The left did not like that at all since they had been the champions of it up until then.

If the left wanted to continue championing it, they would have to make her look like that she is not one of us. In irony, say that she has been brainwashed by men or something of the sort. Which they have done quite effectively. It is exactly what the democrats did to Mitt Romney in their adds, claiming that he was not one of us.
Are you saying that Gillard broke the female stereotype in Australia?

Becoming the first female PM is massive. But it doesn't mean that person was the one who broke the stereotype...
Obama was the Rosa Parks figurehead...

I don't actually know what your point is anymore.
I think you're actually against what you think is modern feminism, and want to belittle it.
 

JoseMourinho

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Are you saying that Gillard broke the female stereotype in Australia?

Becoming the first female PM is massive. But it doesn't mean that person was the one who broke the stereotype...
Obama was the Rosa Parks figurehead...

I don't actually know what your point is anymore.
I think you're actually against what you think is modern feminism, and want to belittle it.
Females are equal to men in all respects, if you seriously think I am against Feminism then feel free to think that.

I am stating my opinion that the feminism movement is slowly changing into working against itself.

Thatcher showed you could be strong in your position and didn't crack at any sign of political pressure.

Gillard wasn't as empowering compared to Thatcher for obvious reasons. Gillard wasn't any good as a politician either, she looked so out of her depth at times.

The part I did not like is how quickly she used the victimhood card.

She also went against gay marriage and other policies that I thought she would be for. She shot herself in the foot plenty of times and made Tony Abbott/Kevin Rudd (who are absolutely dreadful politicians for different reasons) look attractive.

Now, she didn't do any harm to the Feminist movement, she proved that she could be the PM but compared to Thatcher, she didn't do much.
 

cartwright

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Don't want to sound like an a-hole here, but what has she done or achieved? Being a victim or minority is not grounds for such an award.

Stress that I'm not being a dick about it, and that overcoming those circumstances are for sure a factor in the award; but we need to hear more about their contributions and achievements if we want Australians across the board to buy into the award, the person who won / wins it, and the cause they are pursuing. The last two winners are good examples where their achievments have not been adequately heralded to the public.
You don't think she brought the issues around DV to the public eye? That's a significant issue, that prior to her personal tragedy, no one really wanted to talk about.

Prior to Goodes/Batty, the winners were Ita Buttrose, Geoffrey Rush, Simon McKeon (apparently a philanthropist businessman), Patrick McGorry...without googling why they got their awards, I bet no one would know why they did or even some won't know who some of them are.. yet...yet... no such tripe directed at them. Some of us, can see clearly why these two are the brunt of negative comments. :)
 

CM86

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Females are equal to men in all respects, if you seriously think I am against Feminism then feel free to think that.

I am stating my opinion that the feminism movement is slowly changing into working against itself.

Thatcher showed you could be strong in your position and didn't crack at any sign of political pressure.

Gillard wasn't as empowering compared to Thatcher for obvious reasons. Gillard wasn't any good as a politician either, she looked so out of her depth at times.

The part I did not like is how quickly she used the victimhood card.

She also went against gay marriage and other policies that I thought she would be for. She shot herself in the foot plenty of times and made Tony Abbott/Kevin Rudd (who are absolutely dreadful politicians for different reasons) look attractive.

Now, she didn't do any harm to the Feminist movement, she proved that she could be the PM but compared to Thatcher, she didn't do much.
I think we've moved on.
But do we both now agree, that feminists not supporting Thatcher (as a politician), didn't start the death of feminism?

I'd say the outcomes from feminism, have caused what's happened to feminism.
There have been some very big battles, and they have won. And there is a hell of a lot less discrimination today, than there was even 30 years ago.
So people think it's not as needed anymore, and that's why it's the way it is now. More than anything to do with Thatcher.

I think you're letting your political leanings shape your view on this. And we are very different on that.
In my opinion, Gillard did more good for Australia, than Thatcher did for the UK. But there isn't much point getting into that here. Because you think Gillard did more harm than good.

As I said, I think you're against what you think modern feminism is.
It's been sullied by anti-feminists, and feminist extremists.
But modern feminism is still just for equality.
 

Zarrix

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Not a whole lot, despite attempts by high profile celebrities to promote feminism, it is at an all time low. The problem is the self-appointed spokespeople are first progressives and a distant second, feminists. This means equality isn't the overriding objective of the movement any longer.

Feminism is almost dead, only 18% of American women identify as feminists, only 7% of UK women identify as feminists, nobody can even be bothered to do a legitimate poll in Australia there is so little interest.

Most people believe in equality but the vast majority of people do not believe that is the objective of the modern third wave feminism movement any longer.
Although not many women may identify with it as such, the way feminism has integrated itself into the media has influenced the thinking of people who may ordinarily be rational. Its very much a part of the modern collective psyche, and like other flawed political or philosophical viewpoints that worked their way into our psychological and social structures into the past, the influence this radical wave of feminism is having on society is worrying.

The political movement I'd compare modern feminism to is McCarthyism.
 

romeohwho

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Feminism is about equality and the third wave have veered away from that goal and want more.

Thatcher wasn't exactly anti-feminist. i mean there were placards saying we want woman right's not a right-winged woman.

She broke the female stereotype and probably did a big step for females everywhere. The left did not like that at all since they had been the champions of it up until then.

If the left wanted to continue championing it, they would have to make her look like that she is not one of us. In irony, say that she has been brainwashed by men or something of the sort. Which they have done quite effectively. It is exactly what the democrats did to Mitt Romney in their adds, claiming that he was not one of us.
Perhaps some people on the 'left' just didn't like her appalling policies and it had not much to do with her gender?
 

CM86

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Although not many women may identify with it as such, the way feminism has integrated itself into the media has influenced the thinking of people who may ordinarily be rational. Its very much a part of the modern collective psyche, and like other flawed political or philosophical viewpoints that worked their way into our psychological and social structures into the past, the influence this radical wave of feminism is having on society is worrying.

The political movement I'd compare modern feminism to is McCarthyism.
Holy s**t...
That's a pretty big statement.

Do you mean in a broad and general sense, in the same way climate change deniers are similar to McCarthyism?

Or do you mean it on a more significant level? If so, can you please elaborate?
 
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