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Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

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Run n Spread said:
See your point. What is the alternative put foward? A bedrock of society which is a presumption of innocence and the right to due process stands unless you are accused of rape and then all bets are off and it is a witch hunt. The men in the slate article had every right to seek compensation/challenge the university.
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In relation to the Slate article, there was a lack of legal due process, the problem stems from board of education enforcing a process which was not consistent with the legal process and a violation of their rights in the constitution.

The problem for us here in Australia is that we do not have a bill of rights and we are under a lot of pressure to follow the American line of thinking but have no underlying protection from the constitution against bad government policy.

I do believe that is is critical that we undertake a Reagan ideology of 'trust, but verify' rather than a feminism ideology of 'listen and believe'.

A lot of women are r*ped or abused and I do not want to trivialise that in any way, they deserve to have protection in our society, however, I think the police should handle rape cases, not education boards. Police are trained to deal with these serious cases and have experience in searching for the evidence and are a lot more experienced at being suspicious if the evidence is not consistent or has significant holes in it.

America is paying the price for having amateurs handle police investigations.
 

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SpuriousPea said:
Name the ways women have more of the rough end than men.
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YrEFwr6.png
 
romeoh said:
Off the top of my head-Wages-there is a gender gap, superannuation-there is a gender gap. Men more likely to have top end jobs. Women lower paying jobs. Domestic violence-far more often happens to women.
eg. http://www.smh.com.au/national/wome...4-days-to-equal-mens-pay-20140905-10cjgu.html
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"Industrial segregation and "unconscious bias" is leading the growing gender pay gap, the head of Australia's Workplace Gender Equality Agency says."

Things like having mostly male miners, oil rig platform workers, garbos, etc which result in a massive mortality rate difference in the workplace? Women aren't all that keen of taking some of that 80/20 split in mortality rates though. You can't cherry pick equality.

The wage inequality has been debunked way back in the 70s and women keep going to the dry well time and again. For the same jobs, with the same amount of experience and qualification there is little variance when you compare like for like.

Thomas Sowell is a good man to read/listen to because when he was young he was a socialist and he worked for the government and found out while ideologically sound, in practice it didn't work very well and as he got older became more right wing. I don't agree with all his principals but he is very knowledgeable when it comes to wages and the like, even when he was far left he said there was no evidence of a significant variance.



"An organisation may pay women and men doing the same jobs the same amounts, but have an organisation-wide gender pay gap because women are under-represented in management, and over-represented in lower-paid roles."
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Women need to look at the types of education they choose, types of jobs they go after. A communications degree might get you through the door at a business but might be a significant hurdle for advancement compared to those who studied economics or business.

You can't expect women to get paid the same or to have the same chance of promotion if the education variance is a significant difference.

The pay gap starts immediately for most women. A recent report from Graduate Careers Australia revealed the average starting salary for a female university graduate in 2013 was $51,600 compared to men's $55,000. The biggest gap is in architecture and building, where there is a $6500 pay gap.
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That is often reflective of the radically different fields within architecture, it is too broad a category to look at it in a macro if there are significant variances in the female to male uptake in the different sub-fields.

When you look at the highest field in architecture which is Phd level and the average age is 45+ the split is 60% women and 40% men and there is no difference in the pay, at this level if weeds out the lower end forms of architecture education, thre is no Phd in design so it is comparing like to like and the evidence suggests there are more women reaching the higher levels of speciality even in this most man favouring of career paths.
 
Yep agree same job =same wage regardless of the gender but if you read the article many of the 'same' jobs within the organizations are going to men for a couple of reasons( capability not being one of them)-so the gender gap continues in that less direct sense.
Agree the mortality rate is higher but it is as you recognize there are more men doing that sort of work-and I imagine there are a couple of reasons for that( rather than they just don't like the mortality rate! Who does after all-Some workforces have a male culture out there, you can't take the children mining or rigging etc)
Same goes for much of the male privilege diagram-many of the determining factors in that are about type/nature of it, rather than the gender ( e.g. more men presumably commit more serous crime=longer sentences/ more men in industry = more workplace accidents)
The suicide rate for men is quite dreadful and I don't know how that can be explained( think it is quite high for elderly men?) and a lot more needs to be done about it.
 
Why is it that feminists always campaign for job equality in lucrative, high paying jobs but not in jobs like sewer cleaners and rubbish collectors which are dominated by males?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
romeoh said:
Who knows but the persecution complex that defines many in this thread can be pretty tedious. There is injustice sometimes against men and I have acknowledged its not good enough, but there is simply no contest regarding which gender is more persecuted in the world, and if you can't acknowledge that, then let's not even bother. Its not a lot to ask.
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Perhaps it wouldn't be such a 'complex' if whenever genuine issues are brought up, they were addressed, rather than being met with denial and condescension. Helping men like this would also make it clearer that the goal is equality, not 'just' benefiting women.
 
romeoh said:
Yep agree same job =same wage regardless of the gender
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are you still of the opinion that politicians would not run on dodgy stats?
cos the above is the opposite of what every politician in Australia's recent history has been claiming
 
kfc1 said:
are you still of the opinion that politicians would not run on dodgy stats?
cos the above is the opposite of what every politician in Australia's recent history has been claiming
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I don't know what you mean here-can you expand please?
 
telsor said:
Perhaps it wouldn't be such a 'complex' if whenever genuine issues are brought up, they were addressed, rather than being met with denial and condescension. Helping men like this would also make it clearer that the goal is equality, not 'just' benefiting women.
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Yep agree but think you are again exaggerating the attitude towards men. I would have thought most people want equality for both genders, in most ways and are pretty reasonable in expressing that.
 

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romeoh said:
I don't know what you mean here-can you expand please?
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You said you dont believe obama would run with dodgy stats about rape yet every australian politician runs with the bullshit wage gap stats which you agreed were wrong in the post i quoted.
 
kfc1 said:
You said you dont believe obama would run with dodgy stats about rape yet every australian politician runs with the bullshit wage gap stats which you agreed were wrong in the post i quoted.
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Ok, got it- can you show me where that is always quoted by our pollies?
 
 
romeoh said:
Who knows but the persecution complex that defines many in this thread can be pretty tedious. There is injustice sometimes against men and I have acknowledged its not good enough, but there is simply no contest regarding which gender is more persecuted in the world, and if you can't acknowledge that, then let's not even bother. Its not a lot to ask.
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spot on, the deperation of the MRA Jihadis to find a man who has been wronged in some way is just pathetic.
 
At The End Of The Day, Feminism Is A War On Due Process
By Stephen Baskerville, Professor, Patrick Henry College.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/19/at-the-end-of-the-day-feminism-is-a-war-on-due-process/

"special “family” courts that exist mostly to separate children from their fathers and incarcerate fathers – always without trial – for unauthorized meetings with their own children is another example that accompanies a similar witch hunt for so-called “deadbeat dads.” This too has been repeatedly demonstrated to be a hoax, though the summary incarceration of fathers continues. “Advocates of ever-more-aggressive measures for collecting child support,” writes Bryce Christensen of Southern Utah University, “have moved us a dangerous step closer to a police state.”

In all these cases, ordinary citizens are shocked to discover that what amount to criminal accusations are not adjudicated by criminal courts with standard protections for the accused. And in each case, it is feminist ideologues who pressure officials to ignore constitutional protections because of the power they would lose."


“Any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes,” says Denver prosecutor Craig Silverman. “During my time as a prosecutor … I was amazed to see all the false rape allegations … You would have to see it to believe it.”

Delusional and/or intellectually dishonest feminists will tell you that false reporting of rape isn't that common.
 
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romeoh said:
Yep agree but think you are again exaggerating the attitude towards men. I would have thought most people want equality for both genders, in most ways and are pretty reasonable in expressing that.
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What am I exaggerating?

All I'm saying is that if *either* gender identifies an area where discrimination is found to occur then it should be examined and addressed rather than belittled with "yeah, but <other gender> has <supposedly bigger issue> so stop whining".

The other gender shouldn't be the opponent, but by making it so, you put barriers up against moves towards equality for either gender.
 

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tesseract said:
At The End Of The Day, Feminism Is A War On Due Process
By Stephen Baskerville, Professor, Patrick Henry College.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/19/at-the-end-of-the-day-feminism-is-a-war-on-due-process/

“Any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes,” says Denver prosecutor Craig Silverman. “During my time as a prosecutor … I was amazed to see all the false rape allegations … You would have to see it to believe it.”

Delusional and/or intellectually dishonest feminists will tell you that false reporting of rape isn't that common.
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Yet you use stats on male rape? Quit gargling the bong water.
 
 
telsor said:
What am I exaggerating?

All I'm saying is that if *either* gender identifies an area where discrimination is found to occur then it should be examined and addressed rather than belittled with "yeah, but <other gender> has <supposedly bigger issue> so stop whining".

The other gender shouldn't be the opponent, but by making it so, you put barriers up against moves towards equality for either gender.
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That is exactly where I see you as exaggerating-'belittled' and 'condescension'-these are the words that you use and they carry a certain implication that is not justified imo.
 
romeoh said:
That is exactly where I see you as exaggerating-'belittled' and 'condescension'-these are the words that you use and they carry a certain implication that is not justified imo.
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How would you describe the response the male complaints of being victims of gender bias?
 
telsor said:
What am I exaggerating?

All I'm saying is that if *either* gender identifies an area where discrimination is found to occur then it should be examined and addressed rather than belittled with "yeah, but <other gender> has <supposedly bigger issue> so stop whining".

The other gender shouldn't be the opponent, but by making it so, you put barriers up against moves towards equality for either gender.
Click to expand...

This belittling and condescension is a a form of white-knighting. It stems from a predominantly gynocentric attitude to gender issues. Those with such an attitude are unable to take a stand, in deed, for equality - as much as they might believe in it as an ideal - because they make paramount the protecting of the honor of women. What happens to be right or wrong is a trivial matter compared with defending the honor of women.
 
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