Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[Chief]

Context mate. Jesus made healing the sick a priority so in the context of the bible I'd say you should try to get better.

My own weakness is wanting more muscular development. However I have to accept the genetics God gave me rather than destroy myself using steroids. Converting and not being content is a struggle for everyone.

And if someone feels sick being and presenting as their birth gender, and transitioning to another gender will help them, is that not healing the sick?

 

[CaptainHowdy87]

Caleb Daniel will never have Shane Mumford's "bone structure".

Not would any woman athlete his height.

 

[John Who]

What is “normal” in society is not necessarily what is right and what is going to produce the best quality of life for these people.

Perhaps more funding should go into finding a cure?

Suicide rates are high, depression is high.

Maybe we shouldn’t be treating it by convincing society it’s normal but treating it like a medical condition?

Sure, accept people for who they are, but maybe we shouldn’t be performing surgery on people’s genitalia and instead finding a cure that does make them feel normal having a consistent gender and sex?

Your response is valid, but it's a mere reflection of what we once thought of transgender in the past. This is the basis of the psychiatric term Gender Dysphoria someone eluded to. However, science is an evolving process, and we now seem to understand that the mind and body is a complex entanglement. Sometimes the right answer may not necessarily be an absolute answer.
If we think that the "mental illness" in transgender is defined by the mind being incongruent with the body, then that raises endless questions:
- males with man-boobs, and they're uncomfortable with their body, is that a mental illness?
- females with flat chest and want breast implants, is this morally wrong?
- females with overly large breasts and want breast reductions, should this be outlawed?

If we can be accepting of people and their want for cosmetic enhancements, then why can't we be more accepting of transgenders and their pursuit for bodily changes to be in sync with their mind?

 

[Toump Ass]

I agree with the decision. Some of the reasoning was a bit strange though.

Personally I think there is a competitive advantage for transwomen. I'm aware there's research that disputes this, but the opposite is also true.

The AFL was correct in sighting the infancy of the AFLw league. If the AFLw was a professional league I think Hannah's advantage would have been diminshed.

I'd like to see trans people in the AFLw soon.

 

[Carringbush2010]

She. She was born a male.

You dont get to choose other peoples gender, religion, sexuality or ethnicity. They dont get to choose yours either.

This is your view on it, with respect however the fact is this person was born a he and decided that he wanted to be a she. Biologically this person still is a male and only differs by way of any surgery this person may have had performed on themself

Fact is nobody can choose anyone's own or anyone else's natural gender (born with)

 

[Carringbush2010]

What happens if we get a 190cm, 100kg woman who was born female wanting to play AFLW? Will she get knocked back too?

She'd be allowed to play, and even though she is the same weight and height as Hannah she would have less muscle mass and bone density to start with

 

[Carringbush2010]

Psychologists disagree with you. It can and does happen. Im not getting into that debate with you; take it up with the experts wh say you're wrong.

Well we'll have to disagree with the psychologists then, you're advocating that someone who has not even reached puberty is of sound mind to make such a decision. I find that frightening and alarming that someone of your intellectualism and intelligence would do so , there is every chance that this pre pubescent person may change mind when that person has matured to adulthood - what then?

Psychologists or not, you're right this is not up for debate. Pubescent people by mammalian nature are guided by their maternal and paternal figures in day to day lives to form their own formative minds, not go through sex changes at the age of 10 or younger that is just insane and should not happen

 

[Malifice]

Well we'll have to disagree with the psychologists then, you're advocating that someone who has not even reached puberty is of sound mind to make such a decision.

No, Im saynig that I'll leave it to the psychs and experts on this one.

I read somewhere that 20 percent of kids that undergo pre puberty gender change regret it afterwards. Of course that means 80 percent dont (and are therefore much happier kids, and better adjusted because of the treatment).

Its a horses for courses thing. It wont be appropriate for every child. Ultimately the experts advise the parents, and they make the decision based on that advice, the desire of thier child, and in the best intrests of the child.

 

[ess7]

how has this got 91 pages on the main board? If that bloke was allowed to play AFLW it throws the whole sport from a good up and coming league to an absolute joke. How is it fair he gets to play against women who are half his size? If I was an AFLW player I would take action... imagine the shitstorm if he injures the women? Gotta say I'm glad the AFL has got some balls but I must say either way they lost with this decision but it's the correct one made.

Because certain posters have took it upon themselves to brow beat any poster who misspeaks on 1 word in their post.

 

[Carringbush2010]

No, Im saynig that I'll leave it to the psychs and experts on this one.

I read somewhere that 20 percent of kids that undergo pre puberty gender change regret it afterwards. Of course that means 80 percent dont (and are therefore much happier kids, and better adjusted because of the treatment).

Its a horses for courses thing. It wont be appropriate for every child. Ultimately the experts advise the parents, and they make the decision based on that advice, the desire of thier child, and in the best intrests of the child.

I'm glad you're not advocating or agreeing or certainly hope not! Ideally it should be the parents advising the children as they know their off spring better than any psychologist - atleast that't the way it should be and yeah there are some "parents" who are not fit to raise goldfish let alone young of their own species. So in saying that I would hope that these "cases" are extremely rare

 

[Rance2Mewtwo]

Your response is valid, but it's a mere reflection of what we once thought of transgender in the past. This is the basis of the psychiatric term Gender Dysphoria someone eluded to. However, science is an evolving process, and we now seem to understand that the mind and body is a complex entanglement. Sometimes the right answer may not necessarily be an absolute answer.
If we think that the "mental illness" in transgender is defined by the mind being incongruent with the body, then that raises endless questions:
- males with man-boobs, and they're uncomfortable with their body, is that a mental illness?
- females with flat chest and want breast implants, is this morally wrong?
- females with overly large breasts and want breast reductions, should this be outlawed?

If we can be accepting of people and their want for cosmetic enhancements, then why can't we be more accepting of transgenders and their pursuit for bodily changes to be in sync with their mind?

Cosmetic changes, such as breast reduction, could be viewed as bringing a person closer to their most normal self by reducing their genetic deviations, whereas changing gender is deviating further away from what is normal genetically, and includes legal implications. I don't think it's a slippery slope, as it's in the opposite direction. It would be more likely for society to be accepting of a women getting breast reductions, whereas the opposite stance would be to say society should encourage the woman to accept her overly large breasts and embrace that as part of her identity.

Nevertheless, the worst outcome is to remain unhappy with oneself while society makes it even harder by not accepting our differences.

Step 1: Society embraces outliers wholeheartedly
Step 2: Figure out more scientific ways to give these people the best quality of life possible, including researching the possibilities of finding a so-called "cure" that would enable them to feel satisfied without requiring surgery, etc.

 

[Taylor]

When psychological testing advances to being able to scan the chemical levels and neural pathways of human beings there might be a glance back at this period of brain medicine and cringe. Like those who thought bleeding would cleanse the body of toxins.

Everybody now should live in whatever way makes them the happiest as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else but there might come a future where non-binary gender identity, non-heterosexual sexuality etc could be "treated/cured" with a pill or procedure.

The worst case of that would be if there is a genetic tag identified allowing parents to screen their unborn children as they would for downs syndrome.

Now those are the real ethical discussions of the future. Personally I don't see my ex girlfriend as being broken or wrong or sick.

 

[Malifice]

I'm glad you're not advocating or agreeing or certainly hope not! Ideally it should be the parents advising the children as they know their off spring better than any psychologist - atleast that't the way it should be and yeah there are some "parents" who are not fit to raise goldfish let alone young of their own species. So in saying that I would hope that these "cases" are extremely rare

Parents are the ones that have the final say mate. As always.

 

[Badesumofu]

This is your view on it, with respect however the fact is this person was born a he and decided that he wanted to be a she. Biologically this person still is a male and only differs by way of any surgery this person may have had performed on themself

Fact is nobody can choose anyone's own or anyone else's natural gender (born with)

Those aren't facts at all. Biological sex is a different thing to gender. Most people are born with matching sex and gender. Some are not. Others are born without a clear biological gender at all (it actually is a spectrum rather than binary). So while it is true that we don't choose our gender, it's not correct to say that trans women were born with a male gender but decided they wanted to be female. Hannah was born with a female gender but biologically male.

The actual fact is that this issue is a lot more complicated than you and your ilk would have it. If you can't handle the level of nuance involved then fine, but you can keep your alternative facts to yourself.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Those aren't facts at all. Biological sex is a different thing to gender. Most people are born with matching sex and gender. Some are not. Others are born without a clear biological gender at all (it actually is a spectrum rather than binary). So while it is true that we don't choose our gender, it's not correct to say that trans women were born with a male gender but decided they wanted to be female. Hannah was born with a female gender but biologically male.

The actual fact is that this issue is a lot more complicated than you and your ilk would have it. If you can't handle the level of nuance involved then fine, but you can keep your alternative facts to yourself.

It's the same thing however you want to word it, this person is not comfortable in a male physique and attempted to change that in the end yes biologically this person was born a male mammal.

BTW is it you who decided it is not correct? I doubt it - very self serving indeed!

So seeing how you know me so well even though I've never met you, tell me what is my ilk? In fact how about you get off your high horse and don't assume who I am and then stereotype me and claim what is correct and not

My perception maybe different to yours but which ever way you dissect it you cannot redress the facts as you're attempting to in a vain effort to suit your argument

 

[Proud SJW]

Far fewer than watch their favourite racial purity advocate play his daily shooting lootbox games

... what?

 

[Monkey King]

I read somewhere that 20 percent of kids that undergo pre puberty gender change regret it afterwards. Of course that means 80 percent dont (and are therefore much happier kids, and better adjusted because of the treatment).

I’d like to see where you’ve read this. It’s documented in a number of studies that 75-80% of prepubescent gender dysphoria is resolved by adolescence. Personally, if true, I consider a 20% miss rate to be an appalling figure when talking about, what turns out to be needless, medical intervention in a child’s development. If this is true, surely much work is to be done before accepting such procedure as standard.

You keep presenting a consensus among experts that doesn’t exist btw.

 

[TigersMan4]

I choose to identify as an apple

Cant wait for the AFLA league to start

 

[Malifice]

It’s documented in a number of studies that 75-80% of prepubescent gender dysphoria is resolved by adolescence.

Exactly. As I said, you dont reccommend it for very child going through it. Depends on the child, and the reccomendation of the experts.

Im pretty confident that pscyhs and experts are up to date on the studies.

We're talking hormone blockers here mate. Its a pause button on puberty. You can stop taking them and restart puberty at any time.

"With hormone blockers — drugs that have safely been used in other contexts for a very long time — we can hit the 'pause' button on puberty," said Dr. Johanna Olson, director of the Center for Transyouth Health and Development at Children's Hospital Los Angeles.

Olson said that this pause, which is reversible, can offer many advantages. From the child's perspective, a pause can allow for a better timing of a gender-appropriate puberty. For example, a transgender kid born with ovaries who is about to enter into a female puberty at age 9 wouldn't want to start testosterone therapy at that age to transition to a male because he would then be entering puberty many years before his male peers.

https://www.livescience.com/50755-transgender-kids-hormone-blocker-puberty.html

From the same article:

For the parents of transgender children, the several-year hiatus from their child's puberty can give them time to understand what their child is going through and to determine, with the help of professionals, if their child is truly transgender.

Then, should the child wish to transition more physically into his or her self-identified gender, the parents would have more time to consider the social ramifications, such as finding a welcoming environment for the child at school or in the community.

The hormone-blocker therapy is part of what researchers call the Dutch model, as it is based on a landmark study published in 2006 on 54 transgender young people in the Netherlands. That study helped to establish the medical safety of the therapy.

Doctors published a long-awaited follow-up to this study in the October 2014 issue of the journal Pediatrics, and found that the mental and physical health of these children were similar to or better than that of same-age youths from the general population.

Seem harmless, and indeed even beneficial. Lets your child avoid phycially transitioning to male or female until older and able to make a more informed personal decision.

 

[Interloperer]

... what?

Not paid attention to Twitch or YouTube recently? It's all racist video game players or "Pregnant Elsa Spiderman"

 

[jatz14]

This is your view on it, with respect however the fact is this person was born a he and decided that he wanted to be a she. Biologically this person still is a male and only differs by way of any surgery this person may have had performed on themself

Fact is nobody can choose anyone's own or anyone else's natural gender (born with)

Not a biological male any more. Everyone keeps pointing out she is a 190cm ex high level athlete. However she has played footy for a whole season, hasn't killed anyone, hasn't hospitalised anyone. Hasnt hurt anyone to a significant degree. Kicked goals, but hasnt smashed it. Isn't viewed as unbeatable or unstoppable by other players.

A high level 190cm male athlete dropped into the middle of a women's footy comp would cause absolute ******* havoc.

This seems to be what people are anticipating, and basing their opinions on, but we know it's not what will happen, because it didn't happen.

I think if she doesn't make it in the long run, it's because she isn't good enough.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[Carringbush2010]

A high level 190cm male athlete dropped into the middle of a women's footy comp would cause absolute ******* havoc.

As would this person, remember this person has much more muscle mass and more bone density than any other female athlete at the same height and weight and in the end is the likely reasoning for the AFL's decision and correctly so.

IMO how this person has been allowed to play against females in a high contact sport is highly dangerous in the least and am astounded there have been no major injuries caused to other competitors in the other competitions this person has played in so far

I would have no problem (and I wouldn't be alone) if there was an application for the AFL (not the AFLW) draft then to be drafted would be truly on merit!

 

[Power Raid]

Can you point me to the passage of the Bible that indicates it's morally wrong to be transgender?

I'm pretty confident its not even alluded to in there anywhere.

a bit off track but the pope just came out recently with an edict banning surrogacy

thank "god" this edict wasn't around pre jesus' birth

 

[Monkey King]

Seem harmless, and indeed even beneficial. Lets your child avoid phycially transitioning to male or female until older and able to make a more informed personal decision.

Seems harmless? Puberty does not only involve reproductive development, but also bone, muscle and brain development. And most definitely there are studies that conclude the development of bone mass density is affected by puberty blocking treatment and may compromise bone health later in life. There is simply not a large enough body of research to conclude this treatment is harmless and it’s unscientific to say there is. And your citation highlights this - a long awaited follow up to a landmark study ... from a sample of 54.

 

[Malifice]

Seems harmless? Puberty does not only involve reproductive development, but also bone, muscle and brain development.

And in some cases delaying this for a few years in a voluntary manner by the patient is an acceptable risk when faced with a child with acute gender dysmorphia, because it offsets the trauma and stigma of going though male puberty as a woman (or vice versa).