Football Related Random Thread - PART 2

[Dom PC]

How were the boys on the flight? A bit jovial or still seemed down from the night before?

It was just Huey on the flight, would suggest he hung back in Vic for the extra couple of nights (the flight was yesterday).

He looked dead tired to be honest. Would have slept for most the flight. Made me think how much punishment football players put their bodies through. They deserve every dollar they get.

That's all I can say tbh. Didnt want to harass him by saying hello.

 

[dlanod]

Which is why I dont think any of them are as invsted as fans. I still feel shellshocked about Friday night and a few other hardcore fans in the office were too - like a morgue today They move on and we're still devasted.

I think some might be but in general I'd completely agree. We've had a life long (generally) attachment to this club, potentially decades long. Our players have had a handful of years, maybe a decade or a bit more at most.

Guys that supported us before being drafted, like some of the academy kids, may be a different story, but ultimately despite the disdain for the use of the word "learnings" in situations like this, these guys actually do need to turn around and improve and learn from that - whereas we are free to wallow in our disappointment.

 

[martinson]

I think some might be but in general I'd completely agree. We've had a life long (generally) attachment to this club, potentially decades long. Our players have had a handful of years, maybe a decade or a bit more at most.

Guys that supported us before being drafted, like some of the academy kids, may be a different story, but ultimately despite the disdain for the use of the word "learnings" in situations like this, these guys actually do need to turn around and improve and learn from that - whereas we are free to wallow in our disappointment.

Fans always take it a lot harder than players in my experience.

You usually see the teams shaking hands and co mingling after the game , often sharing a joke. It's not that they don't care it's just that sportsmen , particularly team sportsmen ,are far more philosophical about the outcome of games and being out there far more accepting of the randomness of it all.

If they were as totally invested as some of we fans are it'd be hard coming up week to week preparing yourself mentally and staying calm.

Many of them are out there because they're good at it and they enjoy training and playing. They want to win ,of course, but for fans it's generally all about success or otherwise.

 

[dlanod]

You usually see the teams shaking hands and co mingling after the game , often sharing a joke. It's not that they don't care it's just that sportsmen , particularly team sportsmen ,are far more philosophical about the outcome of games and being out there far more accepting of the randomness of it all.

And doubling down on this, half of them came through the same under age teams so they know a bunch of guys that they probably still hang out with in the offseason etc.

Sure, if I lose a big contact to my mate at another company I'll be pissed but I'll also be able to put that to the side and have a beer with him afterwards.

 

[BuntonRules]

Fans always take it a lot harder than players in my experience.

You usually see the teams shaking hands and co mingling after the game , often sharing a joke. It's not that they don't care it's just that sportsmen , particularly team sportsmen ,are far more philosophical about the outcome of games and being out there far more accepting of the randomness of it all.

If they were as totally invested as some of we fans are it'd be hard coming up week to week preparing yourself mentally and staying calm.

Many of them are out there because they're good at it and they enjoy training and playing. They want to win ,of course, but for fans it's generally all about success or otherwise.

And doubling down on this, half of them came through the same under age teams so they know a bunch of guys that they probably still hang out with in the offseason etc.

Sure, if I lose a big contact to my mate at another company I'll be pissed but I'll also be able to put that to the side and have a beer with him afterwards.

Proffessionalism. The game these days . Up until 20 years ago players had a beer with the opposition after the game. The world moves on, but it has taken a big bit of the pleasure for the players out of it.

 

[Section 5]

Zorko on the wildcard finals proposal and how he is travelling fitness wise at present.

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[lionraven]

I think a wild card weekend makes sense. There is inherent bias and integrity issues in the league *cough Vic Bias * cough *Big Vics bias * cough. I accept that given Victoria has the lions share of AFL fans in this country, we have to accept this in the national league. However the uneven number of rounds, teams and marquee games means the H and A season is infiltrated with another level of bias. Finishing 6th means you get a much harder fixture the following year than 7th. We often talk about teams in that 13-16 position getting an easier draw the following year with double ups to leapshot high into the 8 whereas teams finishing 6th are likely to get a lot harder draw and end up outside the 8 the following year. Teams facing North + West Coast double ups or at home are laughing with the free percentage boosts. Looking at teams 7-10, they are all so close, so these integrity issues can easily manifest in a finals berth or defeat. Imagine if you finish 9th because another team finished 13th and ended up doubling on North/Eagles whereas you finished 6th and got Cats/Demons as your double ups.

With a wild card weekend finishing top 6 has an added benefit of a bye. Teams 9-10 have an opportunity to challenge for a finals spot which should minise the effects of quirks like a lopsided draw. Teams 11 and 12 still have something to play for and get excited about in the later rounds so there will be more meaningful matches throughout the season.

To me it seems like an idea worth exploring but then again Im not a 241 gamer.

 

[Nunez]

I hate it personally. Top 8 is more than enough.

 

[Dalions]

I hate it personally. Top 8 is more than enough.

I don’t mind the idea of it and I think it works really well in the NFL where they have twice the amount of team than here in the AFL.
Doesn’t really seem right for more than half of the competition to make finals.

 

[M Malice]

I hate it personally. Top 8 is more than enough.

Couldn't agree more, it rewards mediocrity... and please can we just call it what it is, a final 10.

 

[Elixuh]

I like it. Every competition needs a wild card. Keeps you on edge.

 

[M Malice]

I like it. Every competition needs a wild card. Keeps you on edge.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Couldn't agree more, it rewards mediocrity... and please can we just call it what it is, a final 10.

Same. So many changes over the last 10 years to our game that in my opinion have made it more confusing/harder to follow/less appealing. Lets leave the game alone. The top 8 works perfectly, so why make a change that could be another one of these changes that isn't a good one.

 

[M Malice]

Same. So many changes over the last 10 years to our game that in my opinion have made it more confusing/harder to follow/less appealing. Lets leave the game alone. The top 8 works perfectly, so why make a change that could be another one of these changes that isn't a good one.

Also a lot of people throwing up the argument(mainly on the main board) that it works great in the NFL & NBA so why not in the AFL, if we are looking to overseas competitions to compare ourselves to and learn off why not the big European soccer Leagues like the EPL, La Liga and Bundesliga where it works great .... they have no finals, first past the post is the champion.

 

[dlanod]

Honestly it's just a way of adding teams to the finals. Anyone claiming it's fundamentally linked to how US sports are doing it or anything else are just looking for talking points (unless we adopt the NBA play-in model, because that is different to everyone else - the rest are just finals models that only work with X teams).

You see pretty commonly that having about 1/2 the teams in a league make finals is a good area to be in. A decent selection between the haves and have nots. We've been below that for quite a while now, with 8/18 and with the addition of Tassie it'll become 8/19 or 20. That's a lot of teams who will be giving up on the year relatively early, and not great for a meaningful contest (players start going in for surgery early, etc, because they're miles off making the finals).

Increasing it to 10/19 or 20 is fine by me, and about par historically. The only way to then handle that is to play more games, and pretty much mandates an extra weekend barring removal of the double chance (which would be a lot more significant change, and one thing I like about our finals system compared to most others).

 

[irel]

Personally I think we should go final 16. Why shouldn't mediocrity be rewarded? Our so called supporters would love us to wallow in mediocrity. Imagine the adrenaline that would flow during the last round when we are a point away from 16th position. Ohh heaven for some here. So bring it on. Let's reward the mediocre.

 

[Elixuh]

Honestly it's just a way of adding teams to the finals. Anyone claiming it's fundamentally linked to how US sports are doing it or anything else are just looking for talking points (unless we adopt the NBA play-in model, because that is different to everyone else - the rest are just finals models that only work with X teams).

You see pretty commonly that having about 1/2 the teams in a league make finals is a good area to be in. A decent selection between the haves and have nots. We've been below that for quite a while now, with 8/18 and with the addition of Tassie it'll become 8/19 or 20. That's a lot of teams who will be giving up on the year relatively early, and not great for a meaningful contest (players start going in for surgery early, etc, because they're miles off making the finals).

Increasing it to 10/19 or 20 is fine by me, and about par historically. The only way to then handle that is to play more games, and pretty much mandates an extra weekend barring removal of the double chance (which would be a lot more significant change, and one thing I like about our finals system compared to most others).

Yes.

If the comp is going to 20 teams then having 10 teams involved post H&A makes a lot of sense.

They will probably end up being the sickest games to watch as well. How often is there only really percentage between 7 and 10?

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Personally I think we should go final 16. Why shouldn't mediocrity be rewarded? Our so called supporters would love us to wallow in mediocrity. Imagine the adrenaline that would flow during the last round when we are a point away from 16th position. Ohh heaven for some here. So bring it on. Let's reward the mediocre.

How about we bring all the state league teams into the finals system as well, FA cup style anyone

 

[Dalions]

Will’s was closer to the boundary and had 4 blokes around him adding pressure but anyway, you keep believing Fletch.

 

[Mr Ripper]

VFL are doing a "wildcard weekend" this year. In reality, it's just an extra week of elimination finals, but that just doesn't sound sexy enough, hey.

 

[Viceregal]

One of the posters made a point about the wildcard round mitigating the effect of potential dodginess in the draw ... I think I would prefer it if they tried to mitigate the dodginess itself rather than the effect of it (some kind of weird option like play everyone once first then work out the double ups based around the existing ladder position)

 

[Grasshopper17]

I think a wild card weekend makes sense. There is inherent bias and integrity issues in the league *cough Vic Bias * cough *Big Vics bias * cough. I accept that given Victoria has the lions share of AFL fans in this country, we have to accept this in the national league. However the uneven number of rounds, teams and marquee games means the H and A season is infiltrated with another level of bias. Finishing 6th means you get a much harder fixture the following year than 7th. We often talk about teams in that 13-16 position getting an easier draw the following year with double ups to leapshot high into the 8 whereas teams finishing 6th are likely to get a lot harder draw and end up outside the 8 the following year. Teams facing North + West Coast double ups or at home are laughing with the free percentage boosts. Looking at teams 7-10, they are all so close, so these integrity issues can easily manifest in a finals berth or defeat. Imagine if you finish 9th because another team finished 13th and ended up doubling on North/Eagles whereas you finished 6th and got Cats/Demons as your double ups.

With a wild card weekend finishing top 6 has an added benefit of a bye. Teams 9-10 have an opportunity to challenge for a finals spot which should minise the effects of quirks like a lopsided draw. Teams 11 and 12 still have something to play for and get excited about in the later rounds so there will be more meaningful matches throughout the season.

To me it seems like an idea worth exploring but then again Im not a 241 gamer.

Looking forward to the media being all over wild card round when it's GWS v Gold Coast at Olympic Park and Fremantle v Adelaide at Perth Stadium

 

[Grasshopper17]

Same. So many changes over the last 10 years to our game that in my opinion have made it more confusing/harder to follow/less appealing. Lets leave the game alone. The top 8 works perfectly, so why make a change that could be another one of these changes that isn't a good one.

The only thing, well, two things, I don't like about the current finals system is (1) the minor premier gets treated the same as 2nd, and you could argue receives minimal advantage compared to 3rd and 4th in some cases. (2) the winners of the qualifying final, yes, they get a week off but they also forfeit their double chance.

I'd like to see the minor premier rewarded better somehow from an idealist point of view, but realise that would probably be difficult without an odd number of teams competing. 9 perhaps

 

[Grasshopper17]

One of the posters made a point about the wildcard round mitigating the effect of potential dodginess in the draw ... I think I would prefer it if they tried to mitigate the dodginess itself rather than the effect of it (some kind of weird option like play everyone once first then work out the double ups based around the existing ladder position)

I read about this 17-6 theory during the week. Honestly it is that flawed I can't believe it is being seriously considered. 6th would be on a hiding to nothing, having to play the 5 teams above them on the ladder, while 7th gets an armchair ride, playing the 5 teams below it on the ladder. 6th could conceivably miss the finals altogether while say 9th gets in undeservedly.

The other thing is, what if the bottom team has already played teams 13-17, all at home? Does this mean their last 5 games will all be away? Seems a bit unfair! Either way it will definitely work out that teams will end up playing unequal numbers of home games for this reason.

It's a bizarre suggestion and I can't understand how it's come this far without such simple scrutiny.

A much better way forward is the pairings suggestion I made some time ago.

 

[Grasshopper17]

From my experiences around clubs the down part only really lasts whilst still in their gear. Once changed and on their way they are leaving their job, glad to be going home and life rolls on. People shouldn’t think players who lose sit around moaning all week, doesn’t happen.

A couple of things on this... As a number of posters have mentioned after the above, we are stuck with our club for life. Players are with a club for 10 years, more or less. Sure maybe a few have a lifelong attachment, particularly if they've played in a flag etc, but even that's only if they don't go on to be involved with other clubs in retirement.

So it's natural for us to feel the emotional side of footy moreso than the players.

The other thing is, they have a game in 7 days, so they really have no choice but to snap out of whatever funk they're in and get on with the job. Indeed, we'd be cranky if they didn't! By the time they get to Monday and their review session, they really need to be able to approach that session almost without emotion, and be able to take on board the lessons without being defensive or getting upset about things etc.

Getting belted in a Grand Final seems to have become a bit of an exception to this... We have seen so many teams struggle the next season in the last 30 years, and Sydney is just the latest example.

Last thing on this, and maybe this is different for different people, but whenever I played sport, any sport, I was (surprisingly) always in control of my emotions. I was very good at putting behind what had just happened, good or bad, and moving on to the next moment in the game, or the next game.

As a spectator tho, I'm an absolute nutcase, hoping for the best but expecting the worst. I put it down to the lack of control we feel as spectators and supporters. Sure, we can barrack, but that's really about it. As a player you feel like you are in complete control of things, and in my experience that takes a lot of the emotion out of it.

As irrational as it seems, it's that lack of control we feel as supporters that gives rise to all that extra emotion. That's what I reckon anyway.