Geelong rorting the system

[joe444]

How did the AFL handle the Essendon drug scandal?

They didnt. They did their best to reduce damage.

Only WADA coming in got to the truth of the matter and upheld the law .

You dont think the AFL is an old boys club look after themselves? And power brokers with club ties dont look after their clubs? They dont band together and look after their own interests?

Dane Swan admitted that the Pies and the AFL got him out of trouble more than once covering up events. Thats a player informing us on just how the AFL operates.

Oh I suspect you're right there; but the assumption behind the conspiracy theories (which is what they are) is that Geelong are getting treatment that somehow goes above and beyond that.

But yes, all the way down to the local school where the daughter of a senior teacher just happened to be the right candidate for a new position, networks are everywhere.

As for Geelong? All these rumours coincided with the Cats finally getting some success, and all seem to come from those associated with the traditional "Big 4". If St Kilda manage to have got it right this time, watch the conspiracists come for them, especially if there is another Caroline Wilson out there.

 

[PhatBoy]

I generally believe Geelong have been rorting the salary cap for a very long time but the AFL has no desire what so ever to do the work needed to prove this because it will only end up being embarrassing for them.

I remember reading on bigfooty ages ago suggestions that players are able to buy houses for vastly less than the house is worth, and it would not surprise me if that was true either, essentially adding a lot of money to every players contract.

I am not speculating as to whether the last bit is true or not. But it’s the accusation that gets repeated the most, that makes me laugh the most.

What part of you makes you think that Geelong players are the only AFL players, who could purchase a property for less than its market value. Tell me with a good, sound amount of reasoning and with a well delivered argument, why other teams are unable to do this for their players. I will be very interested to hear your logic.

 

[Purple Suit]

I am not speculating as to whether the last bit is true or not. But it’s the accusation that gets repeated the most, that makes me laugh the most.

What part of you makes you think that Geelong players are the only AFL players, who could purchase a property for less than its market value. Tell me with a good, sound amount of reasoning and with a well delivered argument, why other teams are unable to do this for their players. I will be very interested to hear your logic.

It’s because Geelong have managed to hold together their good players AND recruit A graders over an extended 20 year period without dipping. No other club has done that and you would have thought you would have lost 1 big name by now over the journey if rumours of “paying unders” are true. Fringe players leaving is common for all contending clubs.

Look at all the salary cap breeches in the past and they have all basically stopped since the Essendon drug saga. Have clubs suddenly gotten less competitive or perfect or are the AFL just managing it in house now and refuse to do anything about it since it’s a bad look?

 

[Seeds]

Clearly a strong link between one nation voters, flat earthers, anti globalists/capitalists and those who think geelong have rorted the system.

Social media is to blame for this garbage.

 

[Seeds]

It’s because Geelong have managed to hold together their good players AND recruit A graders over an extended 20 year period without dipping. No other club has done that and you would have thought you would have lost 1 big name by now over the journey if rumours of “paying unders” are true. Fringe players leaving is common for all contending clubs.

Look at all the salary cap breeches in the past and they have all basically stopped since the Essendon drug saga. Have clubs suddenly gotten less competitive or perfect or are the AFL just managing it in house now and refuse to do anything about it since it’s a bad look?

the essendon drug saga wasnt a salary cap breach. You get that right?

The only major salary cap breach was run by the corrupt john elliot at carlton in the mid nineties. And the club still hasnt been punished for it. Geelong should officially have the 1995 flag if the afl had some balls.

Im sure there are some clubs that cheated the cap in recent years. The only club we know is clean is geelong as they have been the only one properly audited.

 

[Partridge]

I generally believe Geelong have been rorting the salary cap for a very long time but the AFL has no desire what so ever to do the work needed to prove this because it will only end up being embarrassing for them.

I remember reading on bigfooty ages ago suggestions that players are able to buy houses for vastly less than the house is worth, and it would not surprise me if that was true either, essentially adding a lot of money to every players contract.

Being honest, they probably are. But so are every other club too. Anyone who thinks all clubs are playing by the rules are incredibly naive. I bet they all are spending a lot of time looking for every possible loophole they can find. And human nature being what it is - and it doesn't change - any club that gets away will something will feel empowered and do it again.

It's the same mindset as with everything else, don't get too high and mighty because it's a good bet every club is a bit grubby when you dig deep enough.

 

[PhatBoy]

It’s because Geelong have managed to hold together their good players AND recruit A graders over an extended 20 year period without dipping. No other club has done that and you would have thought you would have lost 1 big name by now over the journey if rumours of “paying unders” are true. Fringe players leaving is common for all contending clubs.

Look at all the salary cap breeches in the past and they have all basically stopped since the Essendon drug saga. Have clubs suddenly gotten less competitive or perfect or are the AFL just managing it in house now and refuse to do anything about it since it’s a bad look?

We….. didn’t lose the most decorated player of the 21st century?

Why would we need to ‘give anyone up’?
The only recruit we had signed into that initial 2007-11 side with any fanfare was Brad Ottens. He was the only player we signed before Dangerfield who had ever been an AA player before arriving at the Cats.
By 2017 we had 4 players left on the roster who were there in 2007: Hawkins, Lonergan, Selwood and Mackie: within a year Lonergan and Mackie were gone as well. So was Steven Motlop who left at the end of that season. Menzel left another year later too.

So we had lost over the course of that first decade:
Harley (dual flag captain, AA)
Scarlett (AA)
Enright (AA)
Johnson (AA, NS)
Bartel (AA, Brownlow, NS)
Chapman (AA, NS)
Egan (AA)
Mooney (AA)
Ling (Flag Captain, AA)
Ottens (AA)
King (AA)
Corey (AA)
Kelly (AA)
Milburn (AA)
Then we get into the decent but not great players who would have still been on a good wage
Stokes
Rooke
Podsiadly
Mumford was very promising and for some reason we chose Blake over him.
Nathan Ablett retired
Christensen
Wojcinski
Varcoe
Byrnes

There’s not a single part of you that thinks ‘hmmm yeah ok when you look at all the players that retired or moved on including Ablett, it would have freed up a bit of money for the 0 big names they signed until Dangerfield in 2016’?

Since then we’ve lost in no particular order:
Selwood (flag captain, AA)
Hawkins (Coleman medalist, AA)
Taylor (AA)
Mackie (AA)
Motlop (AA squad)
Tim Kelly (AA)
Guthrie (AA)
Menegola (AA squad)
Lonergan
Isaac Smith
Tuohy
Menzel
Henderson
Ratugolea (I’ve never thought he was any good but some people seem to)
Rohan
Duncan
Dahlhaus

In that time we have signed two All Australians, excepting Ablett who returned via trade on a significantly reduced wage for personal reasons and well past his best: Jeremy Cameron and Shaun Higgins. Doubtless the latter cost a fortune as a 33 year old.

So who are all these peak of their powers superstars we keep hoarding, and who are these players that we keep not losing? Based on every bit of available evidence there’s 40 names there that we’ve lost over 20 seasons, ranging from A++ graders down to solid C+ contributors at an average of 2 per season.

I get why it’s hard to keep the band together and I don’t doubt for a second that we bend every rule in the book to do so and have probably broken them a bit here and there.

But the narrative that we are consistently just bringing in star after star and losing no one, and other teams can’t possibly use the same method of getting their players a better real estate deal or something is laughable.

 

[Purple Suit]

the essendon drug saga wasnt a salary cap breach. You get that right?

The only major salary cap breach was run by the corrupt john elliot at carlton in the mid nineties. And the club still hasnt been punished for it. Geelong should officially have the 1995 flag if the afl had some balls.

Im sure there are some clubs that cheated the cap in recent years. The only club we know is clean is geelong as they have been the only one properly audited.

I didn’t say it was, just that it was the turning point. Adelaide and Tippett happened just before that. Clubs use to get fined for small breeches all the time or told they can’t pick up players in the psd. Magically it’s all gone away for the last 10-15 years till the Geelong wet lettuce fine.

Carlton won 5 spoons off the back of their punishment, I recon that was fair. Geelong should expect the same when they are finally caught.

The AFL will continue to do nothing though until a bigger dog, the ATO get involved and start fining players for receiving income without paying tax.

 

[Purple Suit]

We….. didn’t lose the most decorated player of the 21st century?

Why would we need to ‘give anyone up’?
The only recruit we had signed into that initial 2007-11 side with any fanfare was Brad Ottens. He was the only player we signed before Dangerfield who had ever been an AA player before arriving at the Cats.
By 2017 we had 4 players left on the roster who were there in 2007: Hawkins, Lonergan, Selwood and Mackie: within a year Lonergan and Mackie were gone as well. So was Steven Motlop who left at the end of that season. Menzel left another year later too.

So we had lost over the course of that first decade:
Harley (dual flag captain, AA)
Scarlett (AA)
Enright (AA)
Johnson (AA, NS)
Bartel (AA, Brownlow, NS)
Chapman (AA, NS)
Egan (AA)
Mooney (AA)
Ling (Flag Captain, AA)
Ottens (AA)
King (AA)
Corey (AA)
Kelly (AA)
Milburn (AA)
Then we get into the decent but not great players who would have still been on a good wage
Stokes
Rooke
Podsiadly
Mumford was very promising and for some reason we chose Blake over him.
Nathan Ablett retired
Christensen
Wojcinski
Varcoe
Byrnes

There’s not a single part of you that thinks ‘hmmm yeah ok when you look at all the players that retired or moved on including Ablett, it would have freed up a bit of money for the 0 big names they signed until Dangerfield in 2016’?

Since then we’ve lost in no particular order:
Selwood (flag captain, AA)
Hawkins (Coleman medalist, AA)
Taylor (AA)
Mackie (AA)
Motlop (AA squad)
Tim Kelly (AA)
Guthrie (AA)
Menegola (AA squad)
Lonergan
Isaac Smith
Tuohy
Menzel
Henderson
Ratugolea (I’ve never thought he was any good but some people seem to)
Rohan
Duncan
Dahlhaus

In that time we have signed two All Australians, excepting Ablett who returned via trade on a significantly reduced wage for personal reasons and well past his best: Jeremy Cameron and Shaun Higgins. Doubtless the latter cost a fortune as a 33 year old.

So who are all these peak of their powers superstars we keep hoarding, and who are these players that we keep not losing? Based on every bit of available evidence there’s 40 names there that we’ve lost over 20 seasons, ranging from A++ graders down to solid C+ contributors at an average of 2 per season.

I get why it’s hard to keep the band together and I don’t doubt for a second that we bend every rule in the book to do so and have probably broken them a bit here and there.

But the narrative that we are consistently just bringing in star after star and losing no one, and other teams can’t possibly use the same method of getting their players a better real estate deal or something is laughable.

Players retiring isn’t losing them. Losing no A graders to trade (at the time) but bringing in A graders while contending. It stands out and I only really count post 2011-12 as that was the core group was declining so the natural cycle usually takes place except at Geelong.

 

[RPCB]

Clearly a strong link between one nation voters, flat earthers, anti globalists/capitalists and those who think geelong have rorted the system.

Social media is to blame for this garbage.

Most of what is written about Geelong is by the media. If you want to blame anyone, blame the media.

 

[PhatBoy]

Players retiring isn’t losing them. Losing no A graders to trade (at the time) but bringing in A graders while contending. It stands out and I only really count post 2011-12 as that was the core group was declining so the natural cycle usually takes place except at Geelong.

Yeah it is.
When players retire, you no longer have to pay them. It’s room in your salary cap.
At any rate, I’d say when Steve Johnson went to the Giants, and James Kelly went to the Bombers with Matthew Stokes at the end of 2015, it freed up most of what was required to land Patrick Dangerfield.

Who are all these A graders we keep bringing in? Let’s see a list.

Dangerfield and Cameron, and 0 time all Australian and figure of constant derision because he’s not all that good Bailey Smith.
Who else?

 

[RPCB]

the essendon drug saga wasnt a salary cap breach. You get that right?

The only major salary cap breach was run by the corrupt john elliot at carlton in the mid nineties. And the club still hasnt been punished for it. Geelong should officially have the 1995 flag if the afl had some balls.

I bet you didn’t know that the only club that was officially caught breaching the salary cap in a Grand Final winning year was Essendon in 1993? Their opponents that year? Carlton. You feeling aggrieved about 1995 when our supporters know we were cheated out of a flag is wild lol.

Why not go back further and have the guts to talk about Hawthorn in 1989 and that entire era? Don Scott said they were systematically breaching the salary cap, up to and including 1989. He said that 5-6 years ago and Geelong supporters have shied away from bringing that up.

If you want to know the truth and this might blow your mind, every club was cheating in that era. Including Geelong.

Im sure there are some clubs that cheated the cap in recent years. The only club we know is clean is geelong as they have been the only one properly audited.

And yet the story won’t go away. Do you know why?

Because everyone knows that Geelong’s former CEO audited Geelong. That’s would be like Dracula auditing the blood bank.

 

[joe444]

It’s because Geelong have managed to hold together their good players AND recruit A graders over an extended 20 year period without dipping. No other club has done that ...

But again this is where the absence of proof is presented as proof. Excellence presented as conspiracy.

One thing is undeniable, particularly recently, Geelong's ability to find rookies, use the various categories that provide discounts, pick up players from nowhere is unsurpassed. And, just as list-cloggers start to reach a stage where they are no longer on base pay, we are ruthless in almost always getting rid of them and trying all over again. Can any other team boast of having half its list in a Grand Final drawn from rookies, internationals, players on base pay, gems that other teams could have picked? Look at that squad. Compare it to Brisbane's. Which team is copping the cynicism!

"All those recruits" and "all those stars" is never, for whatever reason, an allegation thrown at Hawthorn, Collingwood, Richmond during its era or Brisbane right now.

We have at least one media outlet almost obsessed with "got 'em this time!" articles that go nowhere. The latest kerfuffle hits a front page with a disclaimer "it is unclear which rooms Mr Nguyen paid for".

 

[STPer18]

But again this is where the absence of proof is presented as proof. Excellence presented as conspiracy.

One thing is undeniable, particularly recently, Geelong's ability to find rookies, use the various categories that provide discounts, pick up players from nowhere is unsurpassed. And, just as list-cloggers start to reach a stage where they are no longer on base pay, we are ruthless in almost always getting rid of them and trying all over again. Can any other team boast of having half its list in a Grand Final drawn from rookies, internationals, players on base pay, gems that other teams could have picked? Look at that squad. Compare it to Brisbane's. Which team is copping the cynicism!

"All those recruits" and "all those stars" is never, for whatever reason, an allegation thrown at Hawthorn, Collingwood, Richmond during its era or Brisbane right now.

We have at least one media outlet almost obsessed with "got 'em this time!" articles that go nowhere. The latest kerfuffle hits a front page with a disclaimer "it is unclear which rooms Mr Nguyen paid for".

One guess which club the following relates to yet again with list builds heading into 2026.

Hint: Starts with 'G', ends wih 'eelong'.

 

[Purple Suit]

Yeah it is.
When players retire, you no longer have to pay them. It’s room in your salary cap.
At any rate, I’d say when Steve Johnson went to the Giants, and James Kelly went to the Bombers with Matthew Stokes at the end of 2015, it freed up most of what was required to land Patrick Dangerfield.

Who are all these A graders we keep bringing in? Let’s see a list.

Dangerfield and Cameron, and 0 time all Australian and figure of constant derision because he’s not all that good Bailey Smith.
Who else?

The players who retire wages go to the 3-6 year players you have drafted in and are now stepping up. If you are contending, this is happening all the time.

Danger, Cameron, Smith are all A graders. The list you wrote has a fair few other experienced B graders you brought in too in Smith, Tuohy, Dahlhaus, Rohan. You even paid cap space for pick 7. I don't know your list as well as you do so can't be bothered going through it all but you get the point.

You did lose Kelly but got a Kings Ransom for him and there was family reasons for the shift.

The point is, you haven't dropped off like every other team since you seem to just recruit in players to make up for the talent gap with the draft. Recruiting players costs more than retaining yet Geelong can manage with this pipeline seemingly forever without cap pressure. It really doesn't make sense and the more stuff that comes out about fringe fudging and 150+ phones calls to the List Manager from a Booster then it seems like there is systematic cheating involved.

If I drive a flash car and have a nice lifestyle with no job or explanation of how I can achieve that while everyone else has to do it the hard way, the answer is usually illegal.

 

[Purple Suit]

But again this is where the absence of proof is presented as proof. Excellence presented as conspiracy.

One thing is undeniable, particularly recently, Geelong's ability to find rookies, use the various categories that provide discounts, pick up players from nowhere is unsurpassed. And, just as list-cloggers start to reach a stage where they are no longer on base pay, we are ruthless in almost always getting rid of them and trying all over again. Can any other team boast of having half its list in a Grand Final drawn from rookies, internationals, players on base pay, gems that other teams could have picked? Look at that squad. Compare it to Brisbane's. Which team is copping the cynicism!

"All those recruits" and "all those stars" is never, for whatever reason, an allegation thrown at Hawthorn, Collingwood, Richmond during its era or Brisbane right now.

We have at least one media outlet almost obsessed with "got 'em this time!" articles that go nowhere. The latest kerfuffle hits a front page with a disclaimer "it is unclear which rooms Mr Nguyen paid for".

Hawk, Pies & Richmond all crashed and burned eventually. Pies about to fall off another cliff.

Brisbane should be hitting the end of their era but the AFL has decided in their wisdom to prop them up with the biggest draft/academy/FS bonza ever. They are now starting to lose players too and i expect them to lose Bailey who is an A grader. Their cap must be exploding as the new guns will need to be paid too but when you come off a long period of bottom 4, you can bank cap space so you have more cap in the future and also backend contracts like Richmond did.

Geelong doesn't have that luxury and the proof is starting to show itself.

 

[PhatBoy]

The players who retire wages go to the 3-6 year players you have drafted in and are now stepping up. If you are contending, this is happening all the time.

Danger, Cameron, Smith are all A graders. The list you wrote has a fair few other experienced B graders you brought in too in Smith, Tuohy, Dahlhaus, Rohan. You even paid cap space for pick 7. I don't know your list as well as you do so can't be bothered going through it all but you get the point.

You did lose Kelly but got a Kings Ransom for him and there was family reasons for the shift.

The point is, you haven't dropped off like every other team since you seem to just recruit in players to make up for the talent gap with the draft. Recruiting players costs more than retaining yet Geelong can manage with this pipeline seemingly forever without cap pressure. It really doesn't make sense and the more stuff that comes out about fringe fudging and 150+ phones calls to the List Manager from a Booster then it seems like there is systematic cheating involved.

If I drive a flash car and have a nice lifestyle with no job or explanation of how I can achieve that while everyone else has to do it the hard way, the answer is usually illegal.

Yes you upgrade other players with the wages of those who retire:

When those players are almost an entire squad of elite players to begin with, it puts you in a position where you have more wages freed up when they retire than you do if those retiring are just average.

Regardless of the merits of who you think might be the best ‘team’ of this century or whatever - the threepeat lions or hawks or the tigers etc - no side batted as deep as we did for actual elite awarded stars. So when they go, so too does their pay: when the time comes to upgrade a Brandon Parfitt or someone getting into their 3rd season or 5th season, we aren’t going to just give them a heap more money than they are worth ‘because so and so retired and we can.’ We are still going to pay them normally if they’re only a normal player.

Dahlhaus and Rohan were okay - to suit the argument right now.
They were the butt of significant jokes when they were signed.

Even Tuohy wasn’t seemingly that highly regarded - he was the one I actually thought before we got him was a genuinely good player but it seems among many people that only in retrospect was he a ‘good’ player.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

No. The person who sets the scope of the audit has a big say.

Auditors require instructions in audits such as these.

You can also set materiality levels and also work with auditors on findings.

Ive worked with auditors all my working life. Ive seen how it works.

Former external financial statement auditor chiming in, from my understanding, there would be particularly LESS regulation on an audit like this. The only one the auditors report to would be the one commissioning the audit. It's not like ASIC give a shit about a private audit on non-public information with no tax impact.

 

[PhatBoy]

Hawk, Pies & Richmond all crashed and burned eventually. Pies about to fall off another cliff.

Brisbane should be hitting the end of their era but the AFL has decided in their wisdom to prop them up with the biggest draft/academy/FS bonza ever. They are now starting to lose players too and i expect them to lose Bailey who is an A grader. Their cap must be exploding as the new guns will need to be paid too but when you come off a long period of bottom 4, you can bank cap space so you have more cap in the future and also backend contracts like Richmond did.

Geelong doesn't have that luxury and the proof is starting to show itself.

lol, the Pies ‘cliff’ was winning 39.5 games in 4 seasons with a minimum of 9, rebounding to win 39 games and 4 finals in three seasons including the Covid year, then having one down year before winning a flag two seasons later.

Wow didn’t they drop right off.
So 1 of the 3 examples you used isn’t even an example. And you can just as easily turn around and throw Sydney in there as another team who DIDNT drop off. So there’s as many examples of sides who didn’t hit the cliff as there are sides who did.

 

[Purple Suit]

Yes you upgrade other players with the wages of those who retire:

When those players are almost an entire squad of elite players to begin with, it puts you in a position where you have more wages freed up when they retire than you do if those retiring are just average.

Regardless of the merits of who you think might be the best ‘team’ of this century or whatever - the threepeat lions or hawks or the tigers etc - no side batted as deep as we did for actual elite awarded stars. So when they go, so too does their pay: when the time comes to upgrade a Brandon Parfitt or someone getting into their 3rd season or 5th season, we aren’t going to just give them a heap more money than they are worth ‘because so and so retired and we can.’ We are still going to pay them normally if they’re only a normal player.

Dahlhaus and Rohan were okay - to suit the argument right now.
They were the butt of significant jokes when they were signed.

Even Tuohy wasn’t seemingly that highly regarded - he was the one I actually thought before we got him was a genuinely good player but it seems among many people that only in retrospect was he a ‘good’ player.

But how do you fit an entire squad of elite players under the cap without front loading and then back ending contracts? This is most decorated and awarded stars of the competition according to you?

Therefore unless there are some dodgy stuff happening, eventually the seams bust and the dip occurs or you have a fire sale like the Pies. This happens to everyone except Geelong, the land of the endless salary cap and players taking unders, wink, wink.

 

[PhatBoy]

But how do you fit an entire squad of elite players under the cap without front loading and then back ending contracts? This is most decorated and awarded stars of the competition according to you?

Therefore unless there are some dodgy stuff happening, eventually the seams bust and the dip occurs or you have a fire sale like the Pies. This happens to everyone except Geelong, the land of the endless salary cap and players taking unders, wink, wink.

Well for starters I have always wondered why it’s NOW that people think we must be cheating: I mean seriously compare the squads of the last decade that people like to take the piss out of, with the ones of yesteryear, and tell me which ones would more likely be pushing the boundaries?
So for starters if we WERE actually doing anything dodgy beyond what even I acknowledge we probably already do, which would be to manipulate everything we possibly can, wouldn’t it be more likely to have been when our squad was littered with stars rather than mid-tier players the entire world loves to remind us are ‘not all that good’?

Secondly people tend to forget we were losing players from that squad right from the start:
It began with Steven King at the end of 2007 along with Nathan Ablett.
Within 2 years Harley and Egan had gone and Mumford was in Sydney. Ablett was gone at the end of 2010. By 2012 Scarlett, Milburn, Mooney and Ling had all gone as well. Nathan Ablett and Mumford would have been the only ones in that group not on good money. And Mumford was literally squeezed out because we kept Blake on and couldn’t afford to keep both. (Terrible decision).

It isn’t like the group just stayed together from start to finish concurrently.
We lost other flag players in that time too: Byrnes and Blake. David Johnson got squeezed out - hardly a gun but a handy enough player who would have played a lot more games in a weaker side.


So as has already been pointed out: these players are usually pretty well paid: so when they leave, the player below them probably gets a pay rise but it doesn’t automatically mean they get the same pay. I’m sure that when Tom Hawkins retired we assigned some of his salary for retaining Shannon Neale but I doubt he’s on the same money.

 

[Purple Suit]

Well for starters I have always wondered why it’s NOW that people think we must be cheating: I mean seriously compare the squads of the last decade that people like to take the piss out of, with the ones of yesteryear, and tell me which ones would more likely be pushing the boundaries?
So for starters if we WERE actually doing anything dodgy beyond what even I acknowledge we probably already do, which would be to manipulate everything we possibly can, wouldn’t it be more likely to have been when our squad was littered with stars rather than mid-tier players the entire world loves to remind us are ‘not all that good’?

Secondly people tend to forget we were losing players from that squad right from the start:
It began with Steven King at the end of 2007 along with Nathan Ablett.
Within 2 years Harley and Egan had gone and Mumford was in Sydney. Ablett was gone at the end of 2010. By 2012 Scarlett, Milburn, Mooney and Ling had all gone as well. Nathan Ablett and Mumford would have been the only ones in that group not on good money. And Mumford was literally squeezed out because we kept Blake on and couldn’t afford to keep both. (Terrible decision).

It isn’t like the group just stayed together from start to finish concurrently.
We lost other flag players in that time too: Byrnes and Blake. David Johnson got squeezed out - hardly a gun but a handy enough player who would have played a lot more games in a weaker side.


So as has already been pointed out: these players are usually pretty well paid: so when they leave, the player below them probably gets a pay rise but it doesn’t automatically mean they get the same pay. I’m sure that when Tom Hawkins retired we assigned some of his salary for retaining Shannon Neale but I doubt he’s on the same money.

Shannon Neale doesn't need as much money as Hawkins as he's got a side job with Cotton On too.

I have no doubt it's not just the Cats and successful clubs have dabbled into it when the need arises but I recon the cats have pushed the envelop for a long time and so much so that actual public examples are starting to rise. It starts to smell very fishy and the arrogance of Geelong now flaunting breeches in the public is getting out of hand. Eg. Chris Scott having two jobs after apparently not taking a wage during COVID so Geelong didn't have to cut coaching staff like every other team.

 

[PhatBoy]

Shannon Neale doesn't need as much money as Hawkins as he's got a side job with Cotton On too.

I have no doubt it's not just the Cats and successful clubs have dabbled into it when the need arises but I recon the cats have pushed the envelop for a long time and so much so that actual public examples are starting to rise. It starts to smell very fishy and the arrogance of Geelong now flaunting breeches in the public is getting out of hand. Eg. Chris Scott having two jobs after apparently not taking a wage during COVID so Geelong didn't have to cut coaching staff like every other team.

The Cotton On thing is beside the point as it pertains to his salary comparison to Hawkins because Hawkins also had sponsorships and third party agreements so it’s fairly irrelevant. The point stands - when a top tier player goes, absolutely their extra wages will help retain improving players but it won’t be a like for like upgrade unless that player is actually deserving of it (or they’re signing for ridiculous overs like Tom de Koning etc)

 

[joe444]

The players who retire wages go to the 3-6 year players you have drafted in and are now stepping up. If you are contending, this is happening all the time.

Danger, Cameron, Smith are all A graders. The list you wrote has a fair few other experienced B graders you brought in too in Smith, Tuohy, Dahlhaus, Rohan. You even paid cap space for pick 7. I don't know your list as well as you do so can't be bothered going through it all but you get the point.

You did lose Kelly but got a Kings Ransom for him and there was family reasons for the shift.

The point is, you haven't dropped off like every other team since you seem to just recruit in players to make up for the talent gap with the draft. Recruiting players costs more than retaining yet Geelong can manage with this pipeline seemingly forever without cap pressure. It really doesn't make sense and the more stuff that comes out about fringe fudging and 150+ phones calls to the List Manager from a Booster then it seems like there is systematic cheating involved.

If I drive a flash car and have a nice lifestyle with no job or explanation of how I can achieve that while everyone else has to do it the hard way, the answer is usually illegal.

See my point about the sheer fact that we are ruthless in cutting players who enter their second contract and haven't made it. No other club comes close. Look at us getting rid of Retschko this year.

And it does make sense that one club manages to find a way. We are just about the only club that announced from the get-go that we weren't going to bottom out and that we'd plan around that. No other team as far as I know made that choice so, of course, it's no surprise that they have, indeed, dropped off. And, by the way, foregone the prizemoney that goes to finalists every year which can be paid to players as bonuses.

The "all those stars" argument just doesn't work when confronted with the facts. Again, look at last year's team. Look at all the players (compared to Brisbane) who are by definition at the lower end of the contract range.

There's an Occam's Razor here. Of course, the lifestyle provides an advantage and maybe that can be discussed. But what's being alleged is a conspiracy and a cover up.

And a convincing case can be made if it were possible to do so. Make the spreadsheet, draw up the graph, prove the inconsistencies. Noone ever, ever, ever does.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

The point is, you haven't dropped off like every other team since you seem to just recruit in players to make up for the talent gap with the draft. Recruiting players costs more than retaining yet Geelong can manage with this pipeline seemingly forever without cap pressure. It really doesn't make sense and the more stuff that comes out about fringe fudging and 150+ phones calls to the List Manager from a Booster then it seems like there is systematic cheating involved.

PS with his biased jealous feelpinions vs Cleary with educated guesses. Educated given he'd have a lot of info as a footy journo.