General AFL thread 2016

[SaintsSeptember]

Duffield -- retired
Johnson -- gun but now 31 and struggling to stay on the field.
McPharlin--- recently retired.
Crowley --- was good at what hid did.
Pavlich --- gun , but 34 now.
Sandilands ---- remarkable last couple of years for him, but he's 33.
Ballentyne --- past his best .. which wasn't that good.

So who is replacing these guys from the 2013 grand final squad?

 

[George]

I thought list managers manage lists not coaches,lol.

 

[t_94]

Fremantle actually have some pretty decent young- mid age talent to rebuild around:

Fyfe, Bennell,A.Pearce,Neale,Hill,Weller,Blakely,Grey,Hughes,Langdon,Tucker, Balic( I heard his wrist is screwed?)

A couple of years of shrewd drafting/ trading - say they add Petrevski-Seton or Brodie and another couple of picks, as well as addition of a key forward (who knows with McCarthy) and they might be able to pull off a pretty good rebuild.

 

[Choomah]

Don't you understand it is relevant also about Lyons coaching. You said the list is no good and it will be a 10 year rebuild. If the list is no good then Lyon must be a great coach and got this no good list to a GF 3 years ago and to the top of the ladder last year. I'm saying it wont take 10 years to rebuild because he got a no good list to a GF. Imagine if they get good players in a year or two. The rebuild may take only 2 or 3 years.

Yep it's exactly the same team as the 2013 gf isn't it, I don't think Rosco has ever developed a young player let alone a full list time will tell they're in for a world of pain either way

 

[Diehard Saint]

Don't you understand it is relevant also about Lyons coaching. You said the list is no good and it will be a 10 year rebuild. If the list is no good then Lyon must be a great coach and got this no good list to a GF 3 years ago and to the top of the ladder last year. I'm saying it wont take 10 years to rebuild because he got a no good list to a GF. Imagine if they get good players in a year or two. The rebuild may take only 2 or 3 years.

Well, after all Ross has got such great experience rebuilding a team...not!
I wonder if he'll hang around for the duration. Past history indicates not.

 

[Barrels]

Sad. Seems he's really struggling with the black dog.

Hope he makes it through one way or another.

 

[plugger66]

Yep it's exactly the same team as the 2013 gf isn't it, I don't think Rosco has ever developed a young player let alone a full list time will tell they're in for a world of pain either way

I still don't get your point at all. Last year they finished on top of the ladder with a terrible list, your words. I'm suggesting the rebuild wont take long because Lyon can get a terrible list to the top of the ladder so imagine what he can do with an average list. The rebuild wont take anywhere near 10 years if Lyon is still there.

 

[George]

Don't you understand it is relevant also about Lyons coaching. You said the list is no good and it will be a 10 year rebuild. If the list is no good then Lyon must be a great coach and got this no good list to a GF 3 years ago and to the top of the ladder last year. I'm saying it wont take 10 years to rebuild because he got a no good list to a GF. Imagine if they get good players in a year or two. The rebuild may take only 2 or 3 years.

Why do you say it like 3 years isn't a long time in footy? In 2010 we made a GF and in 2013 we finished 16th. What's your point?

 

[Defacto]

Fremantle actually have some pretty decent young- mid age talent to rebuild around:

Fyfe, Bennell,A.Pearce,Neale,Hill,Weller,Blakely,Grey,Hughes,Langdon,Tucker,Balic (although I heard his wrist is screwed?)

A couple of years of shrewd drafting/ trading - say they add Petrevski-Seton or Brodie and another couple of picks as well as addition of a key forward (who knows with McCarthy) and they might be able to pull off a pretty good rebuild.

the problem is many of those blokes are outside types and not inside mids or KPP players, there is literally no spine coming through

its basically taking the melbourne approach to rebuild the list before they realised it didnt work and started to do it like the rest of the comp

fyfe, neale, walters, hill are your a graders still young enough by their 2020 ross wins a premiership or gets the sack deadline

beyond that you have the likely to be a graders in, again bar pearce they are all outside types:
weller
alex pearce
bennell (calf/off-field issues)

promising types in:
blakely (inside mid)
langdon (flanker, rumours are he is out)
tucker (small defender/half back flank)

extremely speculative (i.e. what someone like what wright is to us):
hughes
grey
balic (wrist is screwed)

big issue here is if they lose neale their only a grade inside mid, then i think they're in for a world of pain... there is also just far too many inside mid/KPP/spine positions to fill and you can rule out FA/OOC players helping them here as they just dont go to freo

which is the big issue for me, how do they fill these spots before 2020 and before players like fyfe, neale, walters, hill all hit 30? i just dont see it happening...

its not like they can trade in multiple picks like we did as they just dont have anyone they can afford to trade out

i think they will get 2 years into this mini build, realise the 2020 date isnt going to happen and then will move on players like hill like we did with dal santo etc. the date will be re-forecast to something like 2025

 

[plugger66]

Why do you say it like 3 years isn't a long time in footy? In 2010 we made a GF and in 2013 we finished 16th. What's your point?

You do realise they also finished on top of the ladder last year. I don't think that is to long ago. Not bad for a side with a terrible list or a terrible coach in some people opinion. What is your point? I have given mine.

 

[George]

How's their salary cap looking?

 

[Defacto]

I thought list managers manage lists not coaches,lol.

they do and in theory the coach has a limited say, but it doesnt always work this way (as we well know with watters making some interesting list management decisions)

the word from some with enough balls to mention it here in WA is that ross can be over powering and get his way from time to time when it comes to list management decisions. he prefers blokes who can contribute now and keep up. i'm talking gumbleton, sylvia, pearces of the world who found a way on their list. i'm talking about role players like suban, de boer, mzugnu who find regular game time

good clubs have strong list managers who can stand up to the coach and football dept boss

i feel we have this with trout, but i dont think carlton had this in previous years and i dont think bond/lloyd were strong enough to make a stand at freo

 

[Defacto]

How's their salary cap looking?

much much better than ours did in 2012, but having said that, they never had the quality we did

salary cap isnt the issue for me and is irrelevant for them anyways as they cant attract sought after FA/OOC talent

 

[George]

they do and in theory the coach has a limited say, but it doesnt always work this way (as we well know with watters making some interesting list management decisions)

the word from some with enough balls to mention it here in WA is that ross can be over powering and get his way from time to time when it comes to list management decisions. he prefers blokes who can contribute now and keep up. i'm talking gumbleton, sylvia, pearces of the world who found a way on their list. i'm talking about role players like suban, de boer, mzugnu who find regular game time

good clubs have strong list managers who can stand up to the coach and football dept boss

i feel we have this with trout, but i dont think carlton had this in previous years and i dont think bond/lloyd were strong enough to make a stand at freo

I agree but I don't think our situation is Trout standing up to Richo, I think it's more of a respectful discussion. Both would obviously respect each other enormously going by what I've seen. Our draft hauls in the last three years have been incredible. I don't live in WA so don't get a feel for the vibe there but to me it seems he doesn't know how to build a list and relies on himself too much/doesn't know how to delegate.

 

[Defacto]

I still don't get your point at all. Last year they finished on top of the ladder with a terrible list, your words. I'm suggesting the rebuild wont take long because Lyon can get a terrible list to the top of the ladder so imagine what he can do with an average list. The rebuild wont take anywhere near 10 years if Lyon is still there.

who do you think was the better coach and why?
daniher or malthouse/sheedy

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Anyone bother with the AFL ladder predictor yet?

I was bored, so gave it an unbiased crack, where we'd only win if we were favourites, and we still ended up making the Granny.

As a footy fan, I'd love a Cats v Hawks GF.

As a Saints fan, couldn't relax and enjoy it if Geelong were in it.

Dogs - nah, don't want 'em beating us to a flag. Huge chance to pinch a flag.
GWS - see Dogs
Swans - astrix next to it along with at least the 06' flag.
Eagles - rubbish away from home, shell of the home team just like the sides back in 06/07 (unless they were playing in Brissy). No chance.
Hawks - what's another flag for shits and gigs. Well.. that GF v Freo is one of the biggest sliding doors moments in history. Freo could have trounced them had they showed up in the first half. Should have been back-to-back GF losses, and that's mentally tough to recover from........ .. ..
North - I don't mind the story, but do we really wanna make shift team like that win a flag? Unfortunately, I suppose.

Holy crap, i have the demons in the 8 and hawthorn out.
North vs GWS GF.... i'm so crap at this.

 

[plugger66]

who do you think was the better coach and why?
daniher or malthouse/sheedy

No idea what this has to do with my post but probably Sheedy but in saying that how Daniher got that Melbourne side into a GF was an amazing effort. By the way I'm not comparing Lyon to Clarkson. All I'm saying is if Freo's list was so bad then Lyon must have been a great coach

 

[cartel]

Robbo just announced on 360 Reece McKenzie from Richmond is on LTI with mental health reasons.

I remember, as a very long-time lurker, that McKenzie had some dedicated fan boys on here, wanting him to be drafted to us.

All the best to him. Hope he comes back from whatever it is

Whoops just saw tweet above.

 

[sonnywalters]

Robbo just announced on 360 Reece McKenzie from Richmond is on LTI with mental health reasons.

I remember, as a very long-time lurker, that McKenzie had some dedicated fan boys on here, wanting him to be drafted to us.

All the best to him. Hope he comes back from whatever it is

Whoops just saw tweet above.

Seemed to go ok last year but must have hit a brick wall of some kind over the pre-season.

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/122754/Reece-MCKENZIE

 

[Defacto]

No idea what this has to do with my post but probably Sheedy but in saying that how Daniher got that Melbourne side into a GF was an amazing effort. By the way I'm not comparing Lyon to Clarkson. All I'm saying is if Freo's list was so bad then Lyon must have been a great coach

the point i am trying to make is the absolutely great coaches have sustained success and find a way to re-invent themselves

sheedy did it
malthouse did it
matthews did it
clarkson has done it

ross hasnt. he's already reverted back to his known game plan even when the side is going through a mini rebuild year (even though i disagree completely that it is a mini rebuild)

ross isnt the type to take on assistants and learn from them and he's not at a club that has a history of attracting the sought after assistants. he's essentially silo'd in his own world

 

[Defacto]

I agree but I don't think our situation is Trout standing up to Richo, I think it's more of a respectful discussion. Both would obviously respect each other enormously going by what I've seen. Our draft hauls in the last three years have been incredible. I don't live in WA so don't get a feel for the vibe there but to me it seems he doesn't know how to build a list and relies on himself too much/doesn't know how to delegate.

totally agree, but that's the difference. do you see richo telling trout who to recruit and telling him to pass on a particular player?

if he did try that do you think trout would stand his ground?

 

[plugger66]

the point i am trying to make is the absolutely great coaches have sustained success and find a way to re-invent themselves

sheedy did it
malthouse did it
matthews did it
clarkson has done it

ross hasnt. he's already reverted back to his known game plan even when the side is going through a mini rebuild year (even though i disagree completely that it is a mini rebuild)

ross isnt the type to take on assistants and learn from them and he's not at a club that has a history of attracting the sought after assistants. he's essentially silo'd in his own world

I have no idea what type of coach Lyon is so you have me there. I do know 3 coaches who have worked with him and they say he is fantastic. I'm going to trust them. And its a bit early to say Lyon hasn't reinvented himself. Lets be totally hones. Before this year why would he? He got sides I believe that weren't the second best side of any year he coached into either GF or on top of the ladder or at least finals. I wouldn't be reinventing myself with that record. Now he has to and it will be interesting to watch.

 

[Defacto]

I have no idea what type of coach Lyon is so you have me there. I do know 3 coaches who have worked with him and they say he is fantastic. I'm going to trust them. And its a bit early to say Lyon hasn't reinvented himself. Lets be totally hones. Before this year why would he? He got sides I believe that weren't the second best side of any year he coached into either GF or on top of the ladder or at least finals. I wouldn't be reinventing myself with that record. Now he has to and it will be interesting to watch.

what you just said is the key difference between clarko and lyon, or lyon and the rest of the coaches i mentioned.

lyon has the philosophy that it has worked and almost got us there, so why change it? its a proven formula albeit it hasn't achieved the ultimate success

clarko and the other coaches i mentioned see the writing on the wall and where the game is moving too. they change it up and develop it, rather than trying to hang onto something that is now ineffective moving forward

for instance compare clarko to lyon after he won the flag in 2008. after a poor season in 2009, mainly ravaged by injury. just 12 months out from a grand final win, he didnt say well what i have works as we won a flag the year before, lets keep persisting with the game plan and program i have. no he identified that the competition had caught up to him and if he stayed on the current path they would fall further behind. so he re-jigged everything. hawthorn of 2008 was completely different in their approach to hawthorn of 2012 and beyond. clarko's cluster was gone.

this didnt happen with ross at freo after 2013 when they lost a grand final. they've clung onto exactly the same game plan ever since, because it almost worked in 2009/2010. it should have been painfully obvious with how hawthorn managed that game from the very first bounce, that what ross had wasnt going to cut it anymore. it was done. ever since, sides have dismantled freo when it counted through a short disposal game that cut through the outdated zone

after freo were sent packing from last years finals series, he finally after almost 7 years conceded that he had an issue with developing younger players and the coaches around him and that he needed to take a more managerial approach (you can read the interviews on this if you dont believe me). he also cited he needed to be more attacking and the game plan had to change. they had to get better in their disposal. it was like going back in time to 2011 when pretty much everyone but him had recognized this.

so then he goes about achieving this. the best assistant coaches he can bring in to achieve this is a bloke from the VFA that he last worked with at the saints back in 2008. then two ex players from hawthorn with no coaching experience at all, one is made a line coach from the get go (WTF!). he steps back and takes the managerial role. after 4 loses in a row, he concedes that the program has been a failure and he has to resume control. then his game plan reverts straight back to what he was using last year. the only change is he is playing the kids somewhat. i mean why???? surely if the year is a write off and you're in a rebuild, you start engineering the game plan to how you want it

its just utterly bizarre and show's he is incapable of adapting and learning and that freo cannot attract the assistant coaches he needs

the only staggering thing is there are people out there that still dont see this/it has gathered the attention from the media it should have

as grant thomas said when he read ross lyons interview in the last off-season. its concerning you have a senior coach with almost 10 years experience now identifying things he should have addressed in his 2/3rd year in the job

 

[Choomah]

I have no idea what type of coach Lyon is so you have me there. I do know 3 coaches who have worked with him and they say he is fantastic. I'm going to trust them. And its a bit early to say Lyon hasn't reinvented himself. Lets be totally hones. Before this year why would he? He got sides I believe that weren't the second best side of any year he coached into either GF or on top of the ladder or at least finals. I wouldn't be reinventing myself with that record. Now he has to and it will be interesting to watch.

Of course you know 3 coaches that have worked with him hahahaj

 

[plugger66]

Of course you know 3 coaches that have worked with him hahahaj

Yep you need to leave that rock you obviously live under. I'm happy to tell you their names and why I know them. Steven grace and Mark Stone played footy with me at Ormond in 1990. Well I didn't play but was the Ormond umpire and bar manager and Danny Sexton who was in charge of the development of young recruits when he first came to the Saints so he was at my house quite a bit. I may talk crap but I don't lie when I say I know someone. Pity the only thing you get to know under a rock is ants and spiders.

But you do know a good footballer by how pretty they are.