General Post Match Thoughts

[Lebneni]

Hi,

While there are a lot of threads floating around I haven't seen one for general post match thoughts, we all thought this week would be a good chance to see where we stand against the benchmark, so what do people think. (PS whats with all these new people popping up after a loss with all these negative comments... you never ever see these same people say shit after a win )

Anyways, here are some of my thoughts about where I think we stand after this game.

It was a strange one. Last week I quickly moved on and put it down as an aberration, with the main focus being this week so the only instruction was to get through without any injuries. We certainly played like we didn't want to hurt our selves. However I thought we'd come out this week red hot, somewhat reminiscent of the way we played Geelong in 2008.

Yet after the first quarter we went back into our shells. No pressure whatsoever on the ball carrier, our defence while good at times still getting mauled by one key forward, our forward not functioning - we could not find any leading space and again our goal kicking let us down (FFS Cloke).

For the first time in a long time we played the strategy of bombing forward, at times aimlessly. Where were the careful chips around the boundary line, players running into space, and creative playmaking to get it inside 50? We just bombed like we had no clue. Maybe it was because Rocca was a target for the first time in ages, or maybe the Saints pressure was that great we just didn't know what else to do but bomb it forward.

Whats more, the players we hailed as elite only a few weeks ago were dissapointing, in a major way. Didak, Swan, Leon, even the ever reliable Tarkyn and O'bree

Yet in saying all that, we only lost by 4-5 goals? Take Reiwoldt out of the equation and we would have been equal. He was the difference.

Does that mean the next time we play them, simply finding a way to stop Reiwoldt means we can finally beat the Saints?

While most wanted to play the Cats in the first week (and I daresay we could have done a much better job against them then the Dogs did); I think there is an advantage of having played the Saints in Week 1. I am supremely confident of being able to account for the Crows next week (their recent good form is overrated and we have history of beating them). Then we go into the Prelim against the Cats which is 50/50 but if we're fair dinkum of winning the flag this year then I'm counting it down as a win.

Then most likely we'll see the Saints again in the GF. MM is a master coach and I have full confidence he will know how to beat them given a second chance. So I am still confident of 2009 being our year.

But I guess my bottom line is, where exactly do we stand? Is St Kilda a 5 goal better team then we are? Because our players played like crap. Had we played our best I'm positive we could have toppled them.

Go Pies.

 

[chop_me]

good thread.... that's an another way of looking at the game...

the final margin flattered us... had St. Kilda not started playing the chipping crap in the third/last quarter, the margin would've been much worse (we got at least 3 goals in the periods when they were just chipping around and wasting time)..

my main concerns:

(1) at most contested situations... they would outnumber our players at least two to one (sometimes even 3or4 to one), would be nice to know where our free guys are
(2) in stoppages, it seems that they always manage to get the ball out and start at running at us.
(3) we're not converting our shots on goal, even in the warmups, everyone was missing shots
(4) don't like the "hail mary" tactic when our guys are under pressure... not much point in bombing the ball long, especially when our players are still in the backline as a result of flooding
(5) the first-quarter pressure was good, but that style is so physically demanding (so much running forward and back) ==> no chance we can last the whole game playing like that
(6) we need players fit and firing at AFL level (ie McCarthy; Sidebottom are good future investments, but not ready just yet from finals this year)
(7) we seem to attack the wrong wing almost everytime today, we attack to the side where there's one free collingwood player, while 3-4 free saints clog up space ahead and await the next kick

 

[shawthing09]

I think Pendles is a major loss so early in the game on a number of fronts.

1) He is the best we have in terms of getting creative first use from stoppages for us. Which is the best way of getting the ball foward and hurtnig the saints.

2) With the extra tall and side we went in with it hurts the rotations through the midfield and foward line which we love making it easier for taggers and harder for us to run out the game.

Beyond that while it was only a 4 goal result they were on top for the whole second half and just failed to put us away. As Bucks pointed out they went to the ball at contests we tried to zone back in front of Riewoldt which meant they won the contests and controlled the ball.

It's hard to stop Riewoldt because he takes the ball as high as he can reach it making it hard for a defender to not chop the arms. If his getting it there at the 50 wide and slotting them I am not sure who is going to stop him.

All of that said today we just had to many people not pulling the line.

 

[Swanny36]

Pretty much spot on with everything mate, St.Kilda only beat us by 28pts when we played just about our worst, with NONE of our usual reliable players (Swan, Davis, Pendles, but not his fault and Beams) I know Beamer is young but he has held his spot in the 22 for a good reason.

If we can get those guys up and going at full tilt, we will go VERY close to winning the flag.

GO PIES!

 

[didaka]

I'm going to be honest, we can't win the premiership. I have felt that way for a couple of weeks, but was hoping things would somehow fall our way. But I believe we are in the next group of teams to really move into the top rung of the competition.

When you look at the 2 sides you'll notice how mature St. Kilda are in age, and body. They're all on the same wave length. Mature in the body and mind. They are just about there. Geelong is all that stands in their way.

When I remember back to last year I think of St. Kilda being humiliated by Geelong in the Qualifier, beating us convincingly in the semi, and then once again being humiliated by Hawthorn in the prelim.

They have made up a lot of ground this year.

I'd like to see us take some real positives out of next week, maybe face the cats if we're lucky enough to get over the crows (which is a hard task due to a lack of common sense at AFL house) and then most likely hit the track, keep developing those kids over the pre-season and bridge the gap next year.

Like I said we're in the next rung of teams to challenge once the cats and saints go past it. Our challengers will be Adelaide and Hawthorn.

 

[didaka]

Pretty much spot on with everything mate, St.Kilda only beat us by 28pts when we played just about our worst, with NONE of our usual reliable players (Swan, Davis, Pendles, but not his fault and Beams) I know Beamer is young but he has held his spot in the 22 for a good reason.

If we can get those guys up and going at full tilt, we will go VERY close to winning the flag.

GO PIES!

It was a large 28 though. We were smashed after qtr time.

 

[Dylz48]

We need to take more of our chances quite often we will have the momentum for long periods and do nothing then momentum swings the other way and the opposition kicks 3 quick goals (see 2nd quarter)

 

[didaka]

We need to take more of our chances quite often we will have the momentum for long periods and do nothing then momentum swings the other way and the opposition kicks 3 quick goals (see 2nd quarter)

Yes. It would be nice to have a target up forward like Riewoldt when we have that momentum, he is just such a brilliant footballer.

I know it seems like it will never happen, but geez I hope Rusling's shoulders can stand up and we can get him back in that forward line. I fear his career is all said and done though.

 

[swamp13]

St Kilda were so much smarter, they shut down Didak, Swam, Davis and Lockyer and not to mention O'bree MIA .they just let the younger ones play free like Beams, Frontbum and Jmac and knew there inexperiance would shine through. we were outplayed and maybe MM needs to be a bit quicker with a change of structure and game plan, he's a great coach but everyone has there flaws.

 

[Teak_Pies]

All i can say is well done Tooves great game

 

[Somebody]

Generally, a big improvement on last shellacking from StK although we were undermanned taht day. Definitely not disgraced although humbled, and good signs for the future.

Buckley had some good comments in the last q.
Most of the game we had a defensive flood/zone which allowed Aints much more numbers around the ball so they always won it.
this was an attempt to "play it safe" but you can't do that in finals.
IN the last q MM switched to manning up which made us much more competitive around the ball - just means if oppo do get it clear, they have a better chance of scoring in their now open forward line - I think this happened once in that q but most of the q we dominated but failed to score much.

Anyway if playing with different tactics I doubt we could beat StK this year anyway, esp without Pendles who looks like being out for the year. In fact I doubt we can win it without him. it's almost like the Buckley days, no Pendles no collingwood - although that won't be the case next year.

anyway I'd say our only hope is if bullies beat StK in the prelim which is quite possible - maybe a 25% chance.

If that happens, then I'd give us a 35% chance against Adelaide (40-50% if we had Pendles). Then a 30% chance vs Geelong, and optimistically 40% chance vs dogs in the GF.
When you combine those (multiply independent probabilities) you come up with about a 4% chance of winning the Grannie this year or 1 in 25 odds. Wouldn't be worht placing a bet for much less odds than that. If you also factor in the odds of Bullies beating StK, that brings it down to about 1 in 60 or so at best (theoretically 1 in 100 if you give bullies a 25% chance, but then there's a small chance of beating StK in the grannie also).

Also judging by Buckley's comments, he'd be a far better coach than MM but obviously you can't judge it on comments in one game. But I just think MM is often a bit slow and conservative on matchday esp in finals, although he has improved this year.

I also hope they keep picking Rocca, he was one of our best players if not the best considering the extremely limited opportunities. Noone else couldl have taken that mark in the goalsquare vs Dawson or applied the fierce pressure he applied. Also he was about the only one that kicked a good snap under pressure, everyone else kept missing. If he'd been playing for StK he would have done at least as well as Kosie.

 

[Lebneni]

Great post Somebody. I'm much more optimistic about Adelaide though, for starters.

And yes, I'd be very pleased to see Rocca selected again.

 

[Kirby]

Whilst big Pebbles did his best and played okay from limited opportunities I still feel that his selection was a mistake as we went in too tall. It also threw Jack Anthony right out as he simply looked lost and unsure of his role in the team. It may have made more sense to have dropped Jack perhaps? (I wouldn't have personally)

The other problem that the Rocca selection caused is that we then went in with one tall too many which in turn limited our rotations through the middle. This was seriously compounded by the loss of Pendles. It meant we were then 2 short through the interchange rotations.

The other selection issue was picking Fraser over Wood. Fraser is way short of fitness and was practically invisible the entire game. Whilst both were pretty ordinary against the Dogs the week before Wood still looked better than Fraser in almost every way. Wood has to come into the side at the expense of Fraser next week. We only need one ruck against the Crows and it should be Wood.

I also think that both Dick and Wellingham need to come into the team.

All in all, I thought our backline stood up yesterday under extreme pressure and were the only reason that we didn't get flogged. Presti was the only individual backman that was beaten but it is no disgrace getting done by a superstar like Riewoldt.

 

[Somebody]

Well since Pendles is, or at least was on sunday probably our most important player, I think we were almost done for when he was injured. it was almost the worst thing that could happen (always seems to happen to Collingwood in finals - eg Rocca, Jason cloke, Carman, Moore etc etc in previous years). It does seem we are particularly dependent on Pendles at present, I doubt losing their best player would have impacted StK nearly as much. I'd go as far as to say we could very likely have won if Pendles hadn't got injured. So I don't think it's to do with selection being too tall, would have lost anyway without Rocca and with another 2nd string mid like Wello good as he is.

I know this is a doom and gloom post - only thing I can say is there's no accounting for spirit - there's still hope if inspired spirit is dug up for the remaining games against the odds - and that would require Rocca for at least one more game. the other thing is we weren't really tuned up for finals intensity and will no doubt be much more up-tempo next week.

Oh Fraser was an important option and link-up man in the first half, probably injury got him in the 2nd half, and/or StK midfield domination.

Whilst big Pebbles did his best and played okay from limited opportunities I still feel that his selection was a mistake as we went in too tall. It also threw Jack Anthony right out as he simply looked lost and unsure of his role in the team. It may have made more sense to have dropped Jack perhaps? (I wouldn't have personally)

The other problem that the Rocca selection caused is that we then went in with one tall too many which in turn limited our rotations through the middle. This was seriously compounded by the loss of Pendles. It meant we were then 2 short through the interchange rotations.

The other selection issue was picking Fraser over Wood. Fraser is way short of fitness and was practically invisible the entire game. Whilst both were pretty ordinary against the Dogs the week before Wood still looked better than Fraser in almost every way. Wood has to come into the side at the expense of Fraser next week. We only need one ruck against the Crows and it should be Wood.

I also think that both Dick and Wellingham need to come into the team.

All in all, I thought our backline stood up yesterday under extreme pressure and were the only reason that we didn't get flogged. Presti was the only individual backman that was beaten but it is no disgrace getting done by a superstar like Riewoldt.

 

[HFF]

Leroy Brown really struggles as a key defender. You can see it from a mile away.

We desperately need to get Nathan back into the team against teams with 2 power forwards. However, I think Reid would also be a better option for this. His form has been super at VFL level. People will say he is not ready, he is young etc. however there is a kid at Hawthorn who is in a similar mould in young Schoenmakers who plays on either tha FF/CHF and had done quite well this year. Reid would have done quite well with Rooey on the lead yesterday.

Dropping Brad Dick was a mistake. His creativity, goal sense and crumbing ability was what we required yesterday and we didn't have it. Saints swept the ball away far too easy when it hit the deck. It was bemusing as to why Davis/Didak did not spend the majority of the game inside the F50 as these small forward options to shake their hard tags. MM had to move them in there and opted not to.

Also, I do not like our defensive set-up of late. Sure, it makes it hard for the opposition to score, however, once we regain possession there is absolutely nothing forward of centre to kick to and we have to hold it up. We should revert to the traditional set-up and make sure that the opposition has no spare men set-up behind the play like the Saints did yesterday. One-on-One all over the ground and make sure you win your position.

Also, when there are no free options available, we kicked long down the line out of our defensive 50 to a contest full of Saints players who were ready for it. The better option would have been to play on to the opposite wing where there were one or two general one-on-one match-ups, that way it gives us a better opportunity to either win it or lock it up. Too may times we kicked it to the Saints masses that outnumbered us in the particular conetst and they either marked easily or won it ground level because of the numbers advantage.

 

[Mobbsy]

i still think we will win ..

think about it ...

our star on-baller is out
we are massive underdogs
short week
a must win BIG final
our star players are out of touch
our backs are to the wall

THIS will bring out the Pies spirit, and we will knock over the Crows, then get over the Cats.

We are still a Top 4 side, and we are in it.

 

[Spagman]

our star on-baller is out
we are massive underdogs
our star players are out of touch
our backs are to the wall

Funny, that never seems to work or matter for my club! Go Tigers!

 

[jaxter600]

OK so now I think everyone has covered everything . I have one question and it's been bothering me all year but came to the fore yesterday. Why does Maxxy when he wins the toss never run out the game towards the cheer squad? Yesterday he got it right but those ****'s ticketek conspired to move our cheersquad - b*stard's.

PS. Medders has had a wrotten year.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

PS. Medders has had a wrotten year.

Doesnt help when you dont have a preseason and then get re-injured early on again

 

[Art Corvelay]

My hopes were dashed pretty early in the piece; pretty much as soon as I heard Pendles was out I didn't hold much hope. He's probably our most important inside player now and you can tell as soon as he went down we were getting smashed in the midfield.

Anthony had no idea what do with Rocca in the squad; the question is, should Anthony have being dropped for Rocca, or should Rocca have come into the squad and possibly upset team balance? It's hard (for me) to make a call either way, Rocca played OK for a bloke who had being out for so long. He efforts at defensive pressure were pretty good I thought.

Honestly think Maxy moving onto Riewoldt should have happened much earlier; seems to be a common theme where Mick moves players once the damage is already done. I know Maxy plays best as third man up but he showed enough against Franklin last year and Riewoldt yesterday to prove he can hold a man if he has too. My opinion anyway.

Reckon we went to tall as well, looked slow and cumbersome at times. Does anyone think yesterday's team was the best? I think we play our best smaller with quick ball movement, which would have being beneficial against the Saints who play the rolling "zone" very effectively.

Didak/Davis/O'Bree/Lockyer/Presti/Medhurst all had shockers and went missing, let's hope they rebound in time for Adelaide. I thought Heath Shaw was very good yesterday and good to see Daisy take that massive hit - for people calling him soft that was a massive crunch.

I'm nervous entering the Adelaide game (their playing very good) but if we can lift our intensity/output we should beat them. Will be an interesting game.