GOAT: Rafa vs Roger

[raff23]

Fed is mentally shot against Nadal. He just can't break him on key points. How many times did Nadal immediately break back after Federer going up a break?

He plays with the weight of the world on his shoulders against Nadal and played much better throughout the tournament. It's sad but it doesn't take away from the fact that Federer is the greatest of all time IMO.[/quote]
makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, so despite the fact nadal owns him in big matches that still makes federer the greatest player of all time?, yeah go and beat up on a weak era like federer did, all of nadal, djokovic and murray would have done exactly the same thing, The andy murray of the current era would have half a dozen slams to his name if he was in his peak during that 04-07 era such is the depth on the mens side now. He cant beat his major rival when it matters and that should automatically not make him the GOAT.

 

[who gives a]

8-2 Nadal in slams which is resounding. Over 5 sets Nadal clearly ahead in the match up. Really thought tonight would have gone Fed's way, but Nadal just lifts everytime he plays Fed and it is great to watch.

dont take it the wrong way i like roger he is a champion and love watching him play its just rafa ia a little better, hope he has improved to beat the joker in the final

 

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

People should also remember that Federer turns 31 this year. It's a testament to the man that he even gives much younger players (i.e. Nadal and Djokovic) the chance to beat him by continuously making deep runs in slams at his age. Under normal circumstances, the top dogs of the previous era decline more quickly and fade away without having to prove themselves against the next generation so often.

At the same age:

McEnroe - Outside top 10
Sampras - Outside top 10
Edberg - Outside top 20
Becker - Outside top 50
Wilander - Outside top 100
Courier - Outside top 200
Borg - Retired

I could keep going with more recent champions like Hewitt, Rafter, Kuerten and Safin. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[raff23]

Fed's serve is almost as effective as Pete's. The serve is the only area he has it over Fed, and Sampras would be killed by Nadal.

Of course Nadal would beat him the courts are consistently being slowed year after year to suit the grinders and nadal is the king of grinders. Put Nadal on a fast court against pete sampras at his peak there is no way in hell Rafa would beat him.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

6-3 6-0 to Fed in their last match before tonight at the Season ending championships.

What surface...wasn't that indoor hard court again?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Put Nadal on a fast court against pete sampras at his peak there is no way in hell Rafa would beat him.

Depends what type of fast court, grass, agreed...but hard courts rafa would be a chance.

 

[Alfonz]

This shouldn't even be a debate. People who continue to argue in Federer's favour are completely deluded. But there is no point trying to argue back, because the Federer fanboys won't listen ... instead just coming up with flimsy arguments that ignore the actual truth.

I can summarise the pro-Federer stance ... "Who cares if Nadal has dominated him? Roger dominated like no other when Roddick, Hewitt and Philippoussis were killing it. Clay isn't a real surface. And if they played 20 years ago then you would see how much better Federer is." Great argument.

 

[nufan]

This shouldn't even be a debate. People who continue to argue in Federer's favour are completely deluded. But there is no point trying to argue back, because the Federer fanboys won't listen ... instead just coming up with flimsy arguments that ignore the actual truth.

I can summarise the pro-Federer stance ... "Who cares if Nadal has dominated him? Roger dominated like no other when Roddick, Hewitt and Philippoussis were killing it. Clay isn't a real surface. And if they played 20 years ago then you would see how much better Federer is." Great argument.

Says the Pro Nadal Fanboy.

Hewitt, Roddick and the Poo won 2 grand slam titles, without Hewitt they won 0

Learn tennis, forget bias

 

[Butcher32]

Sure does. When someone comes along and starts regularly beating Djokovic, we'll then have a new GOAT. It's easier for people that know nothing about tennis that way.

Are you insane? ok Novak had a terrific year, just 1 year.Nadal still leads the h2h.Let Novak do that for a couple of years more and then we can talk. By your logic Michael Chang = Thomas Johansson?? they both have 1 grand slam btw .Its not all about quantity all the time, if Nadal was the same age as Federer he would have had a crack at hewitt, roddick, danvydenko, henman, would have been better than having a crack at novak or muzza. Try to understand the facts behind the numbers please.

Roger himself admitted today that the identical slow surfaces these days helped both rafa and him to dominate.They dont have to change up much anymore. The more i see todays tennis, i put guys like sampras ahead of rafa and roger.Both.

 

[Alfonz]

Says the Pro Nadal Fanboy.

Hewitt, Roddick and the Poo won 2 grand slam titles, without Hewitt they won 0

Learn tennis, forget bias

I don't even know what your middle sentence is even trying to say? Apart from making no sense and/or reinforcing the point that the competition Federer was dominating was not that great.

Are you telling me to learn tennis? Please. I am able to judge this debate based on facts and without bias. Nothing to do with being a fanboy of either of them.

 

[Butcher32]

Says the Pro Nadal Fanboy.

Hewitt, Roddick and the Poo won 2 grand slam titles, without Hewitt they won 0

Learn tennis, forget bias

lol are u drunk? that middle sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

Having a different opinion doesnt mean he is biased. In individual sports no GOAT has been dominated by his biggest rival to the extent Nadal dominates Federer. Previously the argument was .."oh its only clay". Now he is better on every surface other than indoors. How can he be the greatest ever when he cant even beat his nearest rival? and yeah dont play the djokovic card, Nole had 1 good year but rafa still leads the h2h. Let him do it on a longer term basis and we can talk about it

 

[Dr Awkward]

a few points that need to be addressed here,

A. The depth of competition was not that great and all of nadal, djokovic and murray where not even in their peak, not only that there are many more players capable on their day of beating federer now than back than such as berdych, tsonga, del potro etc. Davydenko was a top 4 player in the 04-07 era, what does that tell you?, the 1 player besides nadal capable of matching and beating federer in that era was safin when he was at his best which is on a par with djokovic, nadal and murray of today.

B. despite his record he didnt beat Rafa at the french in that period, didnt even really get close, He has beaten Nadal once on the surface in 09 the year nadal had the injury at the french. Quite frankly if your the GOAT you beat anyone on any surface no matter how good that player is on that particular surface. Rod Laver is the greatest player of all time, if anyone disagrees with that they dont know much about tennis.

I don't necessarily think Federer is the GOAT, I just think he has a better claim at it than Nadal atm (which is what this thread is about Fed v Nadal). I'm trying to draw attention to the fact that Federer had a period of dominance over his competition (04-07) that is probably the greatest period of dominance ever. Regardless of whether or not you think it was a 'weak era' that was a level of dominance that Rafa has never had. Infact Rafa has barely even had a proper period of being No. 1. For most of his career it has been either Federer or Djokovic at No. 1.

It's sad to see Fed continually make the same mistakes against this Rafa machine. Very painful. He was up a break in EVERY set. Threw away so many opportunites, it's all so mental for him. Nadal just mentally owns him. I still think Fed has a chance to win a slam this year, fingers crossed the grass is a bit quicker at Wimbledon this year.

 

[Dipper]

Nadal's place in history will be seen by how he deals with Djokovic this year, most people going on his head to head battering last year seem to think that Djok will continue where he left off in 2011.

The thing with Nadal is that he has met every challenge put to him, first after dominating on clay he set himself to win Wimbledon which meant being able to beat Federer there, which he managed.

Then the challenge was to improve on hard courts with the aim of winning the USO which he managed, by a mixture of beefing up his serve and flattening out his forehand ground strokes.

2011 he definitely went back a level whilst Djok moved up a couple, my feeling is Djok 2011 was better than Nadal 2010 but I reckon if Nadal had stayed at that level he would probably have managed to pull 2 GS out of 2011 with Djok the other 2.

It's a bit early to tell but he looks better this year, he's clearly worked on his game with the aim of taking out Djok, he's got this heavier racket to beef up his ground strokes and the way he beat Federer was different to normal.

Last year in most rallies he kept bashing the forehand accross his body to the ad court trying to pummel the opponent down before unleashing the inside outer to the deuce court, it works against Federer but Djok held firm and he had nowhere to go.

His lack of a forehand down the line was killing him, against Berdych he was consistently hitting them down the line and got a few nice winners and seemed reluctant to continually bash it down the ad court on his forehand even when it seemed the better option.

Time will tell whether he has successfully set his game up to regain his dominance over Djok, even if he wins this final we can't be sure what with his extra day's rest and Djok coming through a pretty brutal semi.

Should be intruiging, if Djok towels him up in the clay court season like last year then we'll know that it hasn't worked.

If Nadal is the main man in 2012 he could easily get 3 GS which would put him in striking distance of Federer's total.

If Djok backs up last year Nadal could end up with 0 and you'd only then expect him to muster up a couple more FOs at most for the rest of his career.

 

[amer]

Neither's as good as Laver. I'd take Sampras too.

 

[Dr Awkward]

Yeah the more I think about it, the more I think Rocket is the GOAT. He won everything when all the surfaces were actually different. When clay was slow and grass was fast. Rafa has been hugely helped by the homogenisation of surfaces.

 

[pepsi]

But weren't 3 of the 4 grand slams on grass and 1 on clay? Now there are 3 different surfaces.

 

[Larry the Liquidator]

I keep reading alot of comments on this and other sites that Federer is the GOAT because he has won the most slams and that tennis is all about the slams. It is true to an extent that tennis is all about the slams, but isn’t tennis more about putting two blokes on a court, either side of a net, and letting them sort out themselves who is better over 5 sets?

Forget their complete H2H records, just focus on their H2H in the slams. Nadal leads Federer 8-2. Honestly, at what point, in the eyes of Federer fans, does their H2H record in slams become a factor? What if they were to play another 4 times in the slams, 1 at each slam, and Nadal wins those 4 to lead 12-2 in slams? Would you still consider Federer the GOAT? Because the way things stand at the moment, I can’t see Federer beating Nadal at a slam again. The other night he came out all guns blazing, whilst Nadal had the dodgy knee and came off a bruiser in his previous match. And in spite of all this, Nadal still beat him, rather comfortably in the end. Federer is a great great great player no doubt, but if tennis in its purest form is about putting two players on a court and letting their tennis do the talking, then Nadal wins clearly. In simple terms, the GOAT is greater than everyone who has ever played the game. But if Nadal beats Federer consistently, then how can Federer be greater than EVERYONE else? Even if you were to discount the FO, which I don’t see why you should, Nadal still leads 3-2 in H2H. So no matter which way you want to crunch it, Nadal prevails over Federer when they come up against eachother, so much so, that Federer now has psychological issues when he plays Nadal.

As for who is the GOAT, impossible to say. Each era the quality of the players get better and stronger. But you have to factor in the advantages that each subsequent era has over its predecessors. Better technology of racquets, slowing of surfaces, better IP including better training techniques and better diet, more professional, harder work ethic, etc. Put Laver and Sampras in today’s era, and they would adapt. They would play Nadal and Federer enough and would up their tempo. Sampras always said that playing Agassi took his game to another level. Contrast that with Federer against Nadal and it’s the exact opposite. If Sampras played Federer and Nadal enough, it would also take his game to another level. I have no doubt in my mind that Sampras would find a way to win his fair share of matches against anyone in the history of the game.

Tennis has such a rich history that it’s impossible to choose the GOAT. Who is to say that Bill Tilden wouldn’t smack Federer silly? If you don’t think it’s possible for anyone to smack Federer silly, look at what Nadal does to him time and time again. All you can do is choose the greatest of the era. Federer has the most slams in his era but Nadal has a better H2H record, so it’s split. With Sampras, there is no disputing he was the greatest of his era because he won the most slams in his era and he had superior H2H records against all his major rivals, who were Agassi, Courier, Ivanisevic etc. Yes I am aware he lost big matches to Edberg, Hewitt, Safin etc, but these were usually one off, and either at the beginning or near the end of his career. But when he was at the top of his game, nobody beat him consistently.

 

[IanG]

I keep reading alot of comments on this and other sites that Federer is the GOAT because he has won the most slams and that tennis is all about the slams. It is true to an extent that tennis is all about the slams, but isn’t tennis more about putting two blokes on a court, either side of a net, and letting them sort out themselves who is better over 5 sets?

That works if they're at the same point in their careers.

 

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

That works if they're at the same point in their careers.

I sometimes wonder if people forget that Federer is much older than the other top players. The difference between 25 and 30 in tennis is mammoth.

 

[Drummond]

Some great posts in here, first by Dipper, now Larry the Liquidator.

 

[Butcher32]

I sometimes wonder if people forget that Federer is much older than the other top players. The difference between 25 and 30 in tennis is mammoth.

how did a peak Federer perform against a young Nadal? lets say 2004-2007? he barely won those matches at wimbledon and Rafa was playing his..what..like 2nd wimbledon in 2006.While on clay..well we dont need to speak about that do we? h2h was still in nadals favour.

 

[Dr Awkward]

I keep reading alot of comments on this and other sites that Federer is the GOAT because he has won the most slams and that tennis is all about the slams. It is true to an extent that tennis is all about the slams, but isn’t tennis more about putting two blokes on a court, either side of a net, and letting them sort out themselves who is better over 5 sets?

Forget their complete H2H records, just focus on their H2H in the slams. Nadal leads Federer 8-2. Honestly, at what point, in the eyes of Federer fans, does their H2H record in slams become a factor? What if they were to play another 4 times in the slams, 1 at each slam, and Nadal wins those 4 to lead 12-2 in slams? Would you still consider Federer the GOAT? Because the way things stand at the moment, I can’t see Federer beating Nadal at a slam again. The other night he came out all guns blazing, whilst Nadal had the dodgy knee and came off a bruiser in his previous match. And in spite of all this, Nadal still beat him, rather comfortably in the end. Federer is a great great great player no doubt, but if tennis in its purest form is about putting two players on a court and letting their tennis do the talking, then Nadal wins clearly. In simple terms, the GOAT is greater than everyone who has ever played the game. But if Nadal beats Federer consistently, then how can Federer be greater than EVERYONE else? Even if you were to discount the FO, which I don’t see why you should, Nadal still leads 3-2 in H2H. So no matter which way you want to crunch it, Nadal prevails over Federer when they come up against eachother, so much so, that Federer now has psychological issues when he plays Nadal.

.

I think Roger's H2H with Nadal is the main thing standing in the way of his Goatness, but h2h is not everything.

You realise Djokovic has beaten Nadal in their last 6 tournament finals! (on every surface, and at the almost the same age). Including 3 grand slam finals. So do you rate Djokovic a greater player than Nadal? At this stage of their career, of course not. Some h2h match-ups just don't suit certain players.

It's also unfortunate that Nadal and Federer's H2H is skewed by a few factors. One of the main factors is that Federer consistently actually made it to the final to play Nadal, whereas a few years ago in the US Open or Aus open Nadal would lose before meeting Federer.

 

[Dr Awkward]

I'm just watching this match on replay and f### me but Federer is a poet.

Forget who is the GOAT, just to watch this bloke play is incredible. It is so amazing, I'm going to cry the day he retires. Even the Fed haters will miss him. Maybe not for a year or two but then they'll realise that in a crowd of ball machine double-handed baseline chumps, Federer has shone like a rose in a thornbush. Like a slurpee on hot day. Like Kate Middleton in England. Like hearing the Beatles for the first time.

His anticipation and intelligence is often beyond belief. His footwork is cat-like and of course his racquet is a wand. But one day it's all going to end and the only thing left will be the memories. He's the last player of his kind and he's the greatest of his kind. What he has given to the sport is beyond the GOAT argument. He's given a legacy of artistry and an everlasting style of tennis that epitomises everything that is great about the game.

 

[bombermick]

I'm with you Doc. He's the last player who is comfortable giving us drop shots routinely, and who is equally as comfortable as the net as he's at the baseline.

He is a poet and he'll be the last guy to ever win a GS with a single-hander. Sad.

 

[JolyV]

Good work fed, beat that nadal