Analysis Goldsack, Blair, Toovey and Macaffer. Where to from here?

[Lethal06]

We are not Top-4 or Premiership contenders if any of that quartet are considered Best-22 players with our whole squad fit and available. However, we need to retain all of them on our list in 2016 for depth purposes.

Having a depth quality, experienced players in the reserves, ready to step back into the senior team at a moment is a hallmark of all Premiership teams. In 2010, we had the likes Lockyer, O'Bree, Medhurst, Prestigiacomo & Davis all on the fringes of the team. Look at Hawthorn's depth at Box Hill - its a similar story.

 

[Gone Critical]

We are not Top-4 or Premiership contenders if any of that quartet are considered Best-22 players with our whole squad fit and available. However, we need to retain all of them on our list in 2016 for depth purposes.

Having a depth quality, experienced players in the reserves, ready to step back into the senior team at a moment is a hallmark of all Premiership teams. In 2010, we had the likes Lockyer, O'Bree, Medhurst, Prestigiacomo & Davis all on the fringes of the team. Look at Hawthorn's depth at Box Hill - its a similar story.

I understand your sentiment but disagree with the certainty of your statement. The fact is that all 4 of these players were premiership players in 2010. They have had multiple seasons as best 22 players in top 4 sides earlier in their careers when they were lesser players than they are now. This argues against your point. I go back to my idea its improving out top 10 output not the output of the bottom 6 that will make a difference.

The output of the bottom 6 will come up no matter who is winning those positions at the time. It doesnt have to be Blair et al but it can be.

 

[Lefthanded]

Whilst on a study break I got to thinking about our list make up and best 22 for 2016 and beyond. Everything going to plan my best 22 ATM is shown below:

B: Ramsay, Brown, Williams
HB: Langdon, Reid, Scharenberg
C: Sidebottom, Treloar, Crisp
HF: Broomhead, Cloke, Swan
F: Elliott, Moore, Fasolo
R: Grundy, Pendlebury, Adams
Into: JDG, Greenwood, White, Varcoe

We'll lose soldiers along the way and some of them are interchangeable (such as White for Maynard if the defender is preferred to a forward), but in putting that team together the only player of the 4 in the thread title I considered was Goldsack for his positional flexibility. Yes he's a jack of all trades master of none, but he's a competitor, with speed and is a solid role player.

Our list is in a good place through the 23-27 bracket with Pendles, Reid, Brown, Greenwood, Sidebottom, Fasolo, Elliott, White and Varcoe in that 22 from that age group so playing them for their maturity isn't a priority.

Therefore my questions are what do they need to do to become best 22 relevant moving forward? Can any of them reinvent their games ala Leon (not necessarily to that extent)?

It appears, to me at least, that they're now a long way back so I'm interested to see how it plays out in 2016. Unfortunately despite all 4 being premiership players the end could come quickly...

I see things pretty similarly, assuming the best 22 is either season as a whole or towards the end. Guys like Berg & Broomy still have a bit of work to do to cement their places whilst Ramsay will face plenty of competition from Maynard & Sinclair (horses for courses to some degree as I think you mention in another post) & White is also no lock.

I'm not too fussed about having an exact composition of best 22 as it varies on opposition, conditions and injuries. Goldsack & Caff probably the two I see of your 4 that I expect will have the most opportunities. Takes at least 30 guys who can contribute over the season to make finals and compete for a premiership. Pleasing thing is that we will have approx 34 guys in that frame (assumes Seeds gone & a question mark over what happens with guys like Freeman & Oxley).

 

[Lefthanded]

One other view I hold is that improvement for us will come mainly from the improvement in our top 10 not our bottom half dozen. Development , planning , playing your role is the bread and butter of the bottom 6 in the 22. I dont see a huge difference in the skill sets of these players team to team. Of course Hawthorns bottom six look immeasurably better than ours but that , I believe, has a lot to do with the great players above them making life easier and more productive. It is easier , especially on the forward line, to play well in top teams.

Perception is the other thing. Perception on how good a player is can be altered quite dramatically by how the team he is playing in is going. If a team is going well mistakes or deficiencies in the lesser lights on the team become less of an issue. If I look at the Hawks I see players in their team who are very similar to our 4 mentioned but form a valuable part of their 22 and play in flags.

Puopolo v Blair is an obvious one. Goldsack v Stratton is another. Look at them and see they are at least statistically very similar players. In Puopolos case he gets the ball less often despite playing in a team that has many more possessions overall than Collingwood. It's not a knock on Puopolo more an acknowledgement that he has a team role where he isn't meant to stack up a lot of possessions. He harasses, chases , tackles and helps create an environment where Breust, Rioli, Gunston etc can thrive. Blair has a similar role at Collingwood but just doesn't work around the same silk that Poppy does and that is the biggest determinant of how we perceive differences in their game.

Our task at Collingwood isn't to replace our 16-22 players. I am pretty sure the group there can do that reasonably whichever of those in the mix perform best in 2016. Buckleys task is to bring the class and output of players 1-10 up, that's how we will see improvement. It's when Moore, DeGoey, Williams, Fasolo, Elliott, Sidey, Grundy, Marsh, Langdon etc step up that we improve. If Toovs, Blair etc are still getting a game then they will be seen to be similar to Stratton, Poppy et al.

Interesting post but I see things a bit differently. Pendles is obviously our best player and rest of top 10 is not something I'm looking to debate, but loosely (in alphabetical order to avoid putting anyone's nose out of joint (not you)) let's say it's Adams, Cloke, Crisp, Elliott, Reid, Sidey, Swan, Varcoe & Williams - I don't see a lot of improvement coming from that top 10. Adams, Crisp, Elliott & Williams probably the most scope for improvement based on age. Obviously if we get Treloar than he would be in our best 10 and have scope for improvement.

Where I see most scope for improvement is in guys like Berg, Broom, JDG, Grundy, Moore going from 11-30 players to pushing other guys out of the top 10. Some of them may be able to do that next year, others may take a few years but will be moving up from mid 20s to at least teens pretty quickly (think Berg with a preseason). Marsh, Maynard, Witts & Freeman (if he stays) are others I see with scope for that improvement. If all 9 of them or the majority improve quickly they can not only push the Toovey & Blairs out of the team but potentially push guys as good as Brown, Langdon & Greenwood back into the bottom six - that's where I see a team competing for a premiership.

 

[Gone Critical]

Interesting post but I see things a bit differently. Pendles is obviously our best player and rest of top 10 is not something I'm looking to debate, but loosely (in alphabetical order to avoid putting anyone's nose out of joint (not you)) let's say it's Adams, Cloke, Crisp, Elliott, Reid, Sidey, Swan, Varcoe & Williams - I don't see a lot of improvement coming from that top 10. Adams, Crisp, Elliott & Williams probably the most scope for improvement based on age. Obviously if we get Treloar than he would be in our best 10 and have scope for improvement.

Where I see most scope for improvement is in guys like Berg, Broom, JDG, Grundy, Moore going from 11-30 players to pushing other guys out of the top 10. Some of them may be able to do that next year, others may take a few years but will be moving up from mid 20s to at least teens pretty quickly (think Berg with a preseason). Marsh, Maynard, Witts & Freeman (if he stays) are others I see with scope for that improvement. If all 9 of them or the majority improve quickly they can not only push the Toovey & Blairs out of the team but potentially push guys as good as Brown, Langdon & Greenwood back into the bottom six - that's where I see a team competing for a premiership.

In general we are in agreeance. Who is in the top 10 isnt that important, we could all debate the names, what's important is that our top 10 improve. I agree its by Treloar, Moore,De Goey etc becoming A graders and displacing current top 10 players. Its there that the improvement comes from. If a Blair or Toovey etc have seasons where they are still in the 22 that wont be a bad thing. We know they can perform the role of 16-22 players in September if the A grade personnel around them improves. That's the key.

 

[Lethal06]

I understand your sentiment but disagree with the certainty of your statement. The fact is that all 4 of these players were premiership players in 2010. They have had multiple seasons as best 22 players in top 4 sides earlier in their careers when they were lesser players than they are now. This argues against your point. I go back to my idea its improving out top 10 output not the output of the bottom 6 that will make a difference.

The output of the bottom 6 will come up no matter who is winning those positions at the time. It doesnt have to be Blair et al but it can be.

Next season will be the sixth year since that quartet were part of a Premiership team, so that holds no relevance to me. Is ancient history in football terms. The four in question are all good, loyal, Club servants, much like Lockyer, OBree etc in 2010. They are solid but unspectacular players and none of them offer any significant upside. We've already seen their best - some time ago in most cases. Importantly, none of them offer any real potency or X-factor. They cause no sleepless nights for any opposition coach. IMO, we need nearly all of our players to run on to the field with an attacking, risk-taking, creative mindset, even if playing in defence. I don't see that trait in Goldy, Toovs, Blairy or Caff.

Having said all of that, I'm keen to retain all on our list in 2016 and even 2017 for depth because its inevitable that we'll have injuries, suspensions, form-slumps, etc which will prevent us from fielding our Best 22 every week. When that happens, their experience will be vital to temporarily plug holes.

 

[rand corp]

Next year at least, I see all of these guys: Goldsack Blair Toovey and Macaffer offering depth to the senior squad and experience to the kids in the VFL. I don't see any of them as best 22 doubt anyone could now but, they have been in there at various times and they are all capable of providing cover if needed. Of course a year on from next, I'd say at a minimum 2 will no longer be with us.

 

[Gone Critical]

Next season will be the sixth year since that quartet were part of a Premiership team, so that holds no relevance to me. Is ancient history in football terms. The four in question are all good, loyal, Club servants, much like Lockyer, OBree etc in 2010. They are solid but unspectacular players and none of them offer any significant upside. We've already seen their best - some time ago in most cases. Importantly, none of them offer any real potency or X-factor. They cause no sleepless nights for any opposition coach. IMO, we need nearly all of our players to run on to the field with an attacking, risk-taking, creative mindset, even if playing in defence. I don't see that trait in Goldy, Toovs, Blairy or Caff.

Having said all of that, I'm keen to retain all on our list in 2016 and even 2017 for depth because its inevitable that we'll have injuries, suspensions, form-slumps, etc which will prevent us from fielding our Best 22 every week. When that happens, their experience will be vital to temporarily plug holes.

Again I see that differently. The only relevance of being flag players is they did that when they were younger, lesser versions of the players they are today. These 4 are actually in their peak years as footballers, they are better stronger more experienced versions of their 2010 selves. They will never win you a flag though but they can be part of a flag winning team. If the output of our top players went closer to what Hawks, Freo or Sydney have produced in recnt seasons you would find that the performance of Blair et al suddenly would peak again.

They don't have to be part of our best 22 but they can be. The fact that Caff aside in the past season they have probably played 2-3 VFL games between them mean at the current time they are best 22 or very near. Certasinly Blair remains in that spot for the time being and it is up to the younger guys to take that from him

 

[Markfs]

maybe they'll all go on holidays to the US over the break and get offered contracts by the some american football team to sit on a bench and provide free publicity..

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Hopefully they become those depth players that can be used to manage a season.

 

[DAWESOME!!]

Gone Critical has beautifully captured what I think on this issue, but better than I've said it. Our bottom 6 is ok, and going to be much of a muchness. There is improvement to happen there, but they aren't terrible. But some of the players mentioned earlier as top 10 should be clearly top 10, we want guys like Treloar, Moore, De Goey and Scharenberg pushing some of those players into our mid tier. After our top 4-5 we're currently too flat down through say 6—15, then say 15-25.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Blair - should be in the 22. An important part of our forward line. None of our small forwards provide much defensive pressure, and let's be honest throwing Swanny up forward will just make that worse. Had a pretty good first half of this year and stays IMO. I think the guy most likely to push him out in that role is probably Caff.

Toovey - another one I think should stay as a regular, but is likely to get pushed out based on our defensive mix. Marley is a better 1-1 defender IMO but we are playing him in an attacking role, and Sinclair is probably the other one to play that defensive role. If Sinclair doesn't make that spot his own, and if we keep Marley attacking, then I would keep Toovey in the lineup.

Goldsack - I think the days of beings regular are past him, but is still a very useful utility who can rotate in when needed. (Spangher style). The rise of Masrh and Moore means he's no longer required as the 3rd tall either forward or back, but is probably still good for 5-10 AFL games a year, as required, over the next 2-3.

Caff - very much an unknown at this point. Our midfield mix means we are no longer desperate for that true tagger, but I reckon it would be useful for the odd game (Cotchin) - but could also play a different role in the midfield or forward line... Or may be too far behind the younger guys to get back to AFL level.

 

[TheWoodsOf72]

Of course a year on from next, I'd say at a minimum 2 will no longer be with us.

I'd like to see them all gone by 2017. None have upside. Shame that we lost Shaw. He would have been perfect for younger players to show them the ropes, but he did not buy into the Buckley plan

 

[northpie]

One other view I hold is that improvement for us will come mainly from the improvement in our top 10 not our bottom half dozen. Development , planning , playing your role is the bread and butter of the bottom 6 in the 22. I dont see a huge difference in the skill sets of these players team to team. Of course Hawthorns bottom six look immeasurably better than ours but that , I believe, has a lot to do with the great players above them making life easier and more productive. It is easier , especially on the forward line, to play well in top teams.

Perception is the other thing. Perception on how good a player is can be altered quite dramatically by how the team he is playing in is going. If a team is going well mistakes or deficiencies in the lesser lights on the team become less of an issue. If I look at the Hawks I see players in their team who are very similar to our 4 mentioned but form a valuable part of their 22 and play in flags.

Puopolo v Blair is an obvious one. Goldsack v Stratton is another. Look at them and see they are at least statistically very similar players. In Puopolos case he gets the ball less often despite playing in a team that has many more possessions overall than Collingwood. It's not a knock on Puopolo more an acknowledgement that he has a team role where he isn't meant to stack up a lot of possessions. He harasses, chases , tackles and helps create an environment where Breust, Rioli, Gunston etc can thrive. Blair has a similar role at Collingwood but just doesn't work around the same silk that Poppy does and that is the biggest determinant of how we perceive differences in their game.

Our task at Collingwood isn't to replace our 16-22 players. I am pretty sure the group there can do that reasonably whichever of those in the mix perform best in 2016. Buckleys task is to bring the class and output of players 1-10 up, that's how we will see improvement. It's when Moore, DeGoey, Williams, Fasolo, Elliott, Sidey, Grundy, Marsh, Langdon etc step up that we improve. If Toovs, Blair etc are still getting a game then they will be seen to be similar to Stratton, Poppy et al.

gC I think you must be related to Blairy

 

[upnsmoke]

Cant believe what some are saying here.

Pies last 2 seasons are perfect examples of a team falling off due to injuries.


Blait, Toovey, Goldsack are perfect dept and fill in players in a season. Gives other players rest weeks without dropping off a lot.

These guys are seasoned veterans.

 

[Kappa]

Cant believe what some are saying here.

Pies last 2 seasons are perfect examples of a team falling off due to injuries.


Blait, Toovey, Goldsack are perfect dept and fill in players in a season. Gives other players rest weeks without dropping off a lot.

These guys are seasoned veterans.

It should be the 1st/2nd/3rd year kids who are providing the depth, not the seasoned veterans.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Given Caffs late season form I expect he might force Blair out of the 22 as a defensive forward, the position he became a premiership player in.
Toovey I expect will remain best 22 and have a better season than 2015.
Goldsack has always been a fringe player (never made a position his own) , I expect Marsh to pass him by

 

[upnsmoke]

It should be the 1st/2nd/3rd year kids who are providing the depth, not the seasoned veterans.

Then Pies have the luxury of having 3 under 30s in their prime (minus Mcaffer) to fill in.

Pies are in a position where the 1/2/3 year players are better talents than the aforementioned players.... so these players are in the best 22.

 

[Gone Critical]

gC I think you must be related to Blairy

I am not but I would definitely swap him for some of my relo's given the chance. At least he can play footy, my relo's are hacks.

 

[Scodog10]

I must say I'm interested by the support for Blair as best 22.

His form in the second half of the season was poor and he hasnt improved one area of his game since 2011. He is quite literally the same player over the past 5 seasons.

I'm by no means saying delist, but I can't understand how we can improve as a team if we have individuals in the best 22 that can't improve their own game from one season to the next?

Sure if Blair can come out in 2016 and add 5+ uncontested possessions to his game or average over 1.5 goals a game or bring his retention rate up 5% then I'm all for him being best 22. Can anyone see that in his game?

Unfortunately forward pressure alone doesn't cut the mustard, IMO.

 

[legendstatus]

Out of the 4 Toovey continues the rest have been vanilla for around 3 years now. Goldsack won't improve and the most disappointing of all of them. Surprised he isn't on the trade table???


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[TW Sherrin]

All these guys have up be bit players going forward. Toovey would likely get more game time.

They've been good servants but they can't help us win another flag.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

I must say I'm interested by the support for Blair as best 22.

His form in the second half of the season was poor and he hasnt improved one area of his game since 2011. He is quite literally the same player over the past 5 seasons.

I'm by no means saying delist, but I can't understand how we can improve as a team if we have individuals in the best 22 that can't improve their own game from one season to the next?

Sure if Blair can come out in 2016 and add 5+ uncontested possessions to his game or average over 1.5 goals a game or bring his retention rate up 5% then I'm all for him being best 22. Can anyone see that in his game?

Unfortunately forward pressure alone doesn't cut the mustard, IMO.

This is half the issue with selections, Hawthorn were dropping Sewell and Mitchell last year and other players when needed creating a lot of competition for spots. However week in week our repeat poor performances are never punished.

 

[Scodog10]

This is half the issue with selections, Hawthorn were dropping Sewell and Mitchell last year and other players when needed creating a lot of competition for spots. However week in week our repeat poor performances are never punished.

Punish might be a strong word, but I think the match committee did put Blair and Toovey on notice late season. Blair only got a reprieve with Broomhead going down and Toovey was moved aside once Scharenberg was acknowledged as being ready.

My interest lies more in the posters that haven't bought into that line of thinking yet. That isn't to say they won't play in 2016 I just feel that we've now reached a point with some of our youth that they need to be given the chance to prove they are up to it rather than sticking with guys we know aren't taking us forward beyond filling roles.

 

[Maggie5]

I must say I'm interested by the support for Blair as best 22.

His form in the second half of the season was poor and he hasnt improved one area of his game since 2011. He is quite literally the same player over the past 5 seasons.

I'm by no means saying delist, but I can't understand how we can improve as a team if we have individuals in the best 22 that can't improve their own game from one season to the next?

Sure if Blair can come out in 2016 and add 5+ uncontested possessions to his game or average over 1.5 goals a game or bring his retention rate up 5% then I'm all for him being best 22. Can anyone see that in his game?

Unfortunately forward pressure alone doesn't cut the mustard, IMO.

Blair was dropped for poor form which was good to see but I can see Macaffer (not because I like him, I have supported both) as one who will be challenging based on his last few games in the VFL.