Sliding doors, what if we won in 2018, and kept Buckley and the same FD? Where would we be now?

[Carringbush2010]

No, I don’t care about dwelling in a hypothetical past.
I’m more focussed on what is ahead of us in 2023.

Ok you don't need to, I've put it here as a hypothetical for others that might.

Fly or Buckley, fair enough to discuss.

 

[Carringbush2010]

As someone that wanted Buckley replaced in 2017 my thoughts have always wandered to what if for 2018-20 without him… It’s absolutely pointless, but wow some system and genuine empathy goes a long way.

Well at that time, there wasn't a lot in the well as far as replacement coaches go. Fly was with the filth.

Hard to know.

I really did rate how Bucks molded the group from 2017 - 2018 though, I thought he had a flag in them and I still reckon he could coach to a flag.

As far as footy knowledge and strategy goes Bucks has few peers.

 

[mocamagic]

2018 still hurts. 90 seconds left. Adams chucked one on the boot and could’ve got the lead, but kicked a behind. Uuuuuggggghh.

Bucks would still be coach. Probably be an underwhelming, average team. As was typical most years under Buckley.

We were still in front when that occurred

 

[cityslick1]

As someone that wanted Buckley replaced in 2017 my thoughts have always wandered to what if for 2018-20 without him… It’s absolutely pointless, but wow some system and genuine empathy goes a long way.

liked for the second sentence. Bucks' record stacks up pretty well, and he's obv a v astute observer / analyst of the game. His advancements in our defence should be noted - unless it was all Longmuir - along with reading the opposition's game & weaknesses. Plus as even malthouse says - he got the very best out of Sidey, pendles, Grundy, Adams, Howey, Elliott, Crisp, Treloar, Maynard etc, so has to be regarded as a good coach. I didnt want him replaced in 2017, but I did by the end of 2020.

History shows that his inflexibility, lack of empathy / polarising personality, lack of development... and lack of "other club & systems" experience meant that there were better options out there to coach this team in the modern game, so GW made the right call on both fronts. Including who he hired.

That last point should be key though. Fly has had coaching experience at the two clubs to dominate in the past decade, along with playing with the one that dominated at the start of this century. Bucks has only known Collingwood, so whilst he still prob wouldve been set on doing it his way, he wouldve surely benefitted from being in other winning systems for ten years, rather than just ours.

Final point - please dont ever forget what he helped us do to Richmond in 2018, one of our best ever performances. Sadly it was also our grand final, like so many other good sides before us that have fallen at the final hurdle.

 

[SprooseMoose]

I reckon the 2018 GF loss was the catalyst for the ultra defensive low-scoring game plan that reared it's head afterwards. The fear of not holding onto a lead. You could probably make the argument that our game plan might've remained a bit more free-flowing if we'd won. A GF victory may have been proof enough that we didn't need to change too much.

We probably wouldn't have recruited Beams either. Or maybe we blow our cap space on other free agents who suddenly want to join the latest premiership side?

Bucks has said out of all teams, even though other teams were subject to the same circumstances, he reckons we coped the worst with COVID hub-live in 20/21 for some reason. So irrespective of game plan, we may still have struggled as much as we did. Maybe he sticks around a year or so more with some premiership credits in the bank.

We wouldn't have had the chance to recruit Fly though.

 

[SprooseMoose]

We were still in front when that occurred

I think Kreme Pie is talking about when Adams was streaming forward and the club runner got in the way. I could be wrong though. I've no desire to re-watch that game.

 

[Pie eyed]

?

The same position Adam Simpson and West Coast are in now is a possibility.

We would have an extra flag and exactly what has happened now would have happened.
The next season would have unfolded as it did even if the free was correctly given.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Glad you made this thread

I've already been chastised for suggesting that losing the 2018 GF will be viewed in hindsight as a blessing

If we had won that Grand Final, we'd have signed Buckley up for another decade and be languishing at the bottom of the ladder right now.

We've become the brand new club we'd been needing to become for a long time now and we will win flags with McRae. But even more so, we've already just become a better club all around.

I know it's hard to see right now, but after we've won a couple with Fly, you'll all see what I see

 

[magpienato]

Obvious starting point is we don’t feel the need to top up. Therefore we don’t recruit Beams and compound our cap pressure.

This absolutely. Let's face it, 2018 was a false dawn. We were a good team helped by an easier schedule but otherwise we lucked our way to being a kick from a flag, it is what it is. But I think there were some at the club who perhaps overestimated how good/capable our team was to go all the way. Sure we got back to the Preliminary Final but realistically our team was never going to be good enough to go up against that Richmond team unless we lucked out.

But getting back on track, that trade for Beams was bad when it happened and even worse in hindsight. There was no foresight in the decision and what we gave up for what we got might put it down as one of the worst trades and as you state it led to they whole cap space debacle.

 

[magpienato]

Glad you made this thread

I've already been chastised for suggesting that losing the 2018 GF will be viewed in hindsight as a blessing

If we had won that Grand Final, we'd have signed Buckley up for another decade and be languishing at the bottom of the ladder right now.

We've become the brand new club we'd been needing to become for a long time now and we will win flags with McRae. But even more so, we've already just become a better club all around.

I know it's hard to see right now, but after we've won a couple with Fly, you'll all see what I see

The way I see it, sure we'd have another flag under Buckley but I don't think anyone could see there being sustained success. We would still try to prolong it with moves like the Beams trade but ultimately we would run ourselves flat and probably be in the same situation as West Coast is now.

As things stand with McRae at the moment, I can see us consistently making the top 4 and finding our way into 2 or 3 Grand Finals. Whatever happens in those is up to fate, but the point is I see our current team as being much more sustainable than that 2018/19 team.

I utterly believe that we will win a flag under McRae though. Think of the years after 02 & 03, no one ever thought Malthouse would be able to take us there again and he did 2 more times.

 

[#23 Hill]

?


We would have an extra flag and exactly what has happened now would have happened.
The next season would have unfolded as it did even if the free was correctly given.

Nah. A flag would've bought Buckley another five seasons, the last of which would've been this season.

 

[Bianconeri]

I know it's hard to see right now, but after we've won a couple with Fly, you'll all see what I see

I see what you see but I’d suggest waiting until the bolded actually happens before running with this.

 

[JoinDate]

What if we won every grand final ever, then what?

 

[Cyclops]

First up credit to OP for using the term "sliding door" correctly unlike floggo journos.

Great question. I feel a weak WC failed to back up and so did we. Maybe increased confidence gets us to the GF the next year but Dimma, Jack and Dusty were an awesome force that year.

Very insightful point made about the Beams deal too. We would have a better draft hand.

Bucks would have many more years as coach, as with Matthew's (but not Mick) we tend to give premiership coaches extra years. Maybe we'd be shaping up for a Premiership run, but likely Ed's meddling would still have hurt our list management eventually. Super smart guy but got too hands on. Hard to blame him, he's pretty good at most things he does.

 

[60 Yards Out]

Bucks has said out of all teams, even though other teams were subject to the same circumstances, he reckons we coped the worst with COVID hub-live in 20/21 for some reason. So irrespective of game plan, we may still have struggled as much as we did. Maybe he sticks around a year or so more with some premiership credits in the bank.

We wouldn't have had the chance to recruit Fly though.

This strikes me as a convenient cover for the fact that we adopted a truly awful game plan in 2019 and stuck with it until Bucks was gone, with predictably bad results. He was just too stubborn to change it.
I seem to recall that Richmond had problems in hub life in 2020, but won the flag anyway.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

I think Eddie leaving has a lot to do with the success too. It was Eddie's fault in the first place for that debacle that was the 10 year succession plan.

GW is underrated too. It's not only Fly.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I know it's hard to see right now, but after we've won a couple with Fly, you'll all see what I see

This is not a given though, yes it looks likely, but not a given.

Either either, I agree that losing 2018 may be a blessing in disguise. That'll be decided if we win one or even two or three under Fly's tutelage, fine margins I know.

Also either either, both coaches have managed to turn no names into back page headlines, which leads me to this point, the filth over the railway line managed a dynasty with arguably not the best list in those flag years. We can do the same, and finally the club has put itself in its best position to do so, we certainly don't have the best list at the minute.................. but our mid tier players may develop into what looks like the best list.

Unlike the Buckley tenure that was littered with head scratching list and cap decisions, and despite that almost pinched a flag.

I believe we're not near peak yet, if we peak at the right time we can engrave our name on the cup.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Glad you made this thread

I've already been chastised for suggesting that losing the 2018 GF will be viewed in hindsight as a blessing

If we had won that Grand Final, we'd have signed Buckley up for another decade and be languishing at the bottom of the ladder right now.

We've become the brand new club we'd been needing to become for a long time now and we will win flags with McRae. But even more so, we've already just become a better club all around.

I know it's hard to see right now, but after we've won a couple with Fly, you'll all see what I see

You were quite rightly chastised the first time. Losing a grand final is never a blessing and winning a grand final is no guarantee that a coach gets a lifetime contract. This week being a case in point. Our 1990 “ job for life” premiership coach another.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

What if we won every grand final ever, then what?

Then all our coaches are overrated

 

[mocamagic]

I think Kreme Pie is talking about when Adams was streaming forward and the club runner got in the way. I could be wrong though. I've no desire to re-watch that game.

No he's not. In any case it was an errant kick from defensive 50 from Adams in that passage of play with the runner.

 

[loki04]

Well at that time, there wasn't a lot in the well as far as replacement coaches go. Fly was with the filth.

Hard to know.

I really did rate how Bucks molded the group from 2017 - 2018 though, I thought he had a flag in them and I still reckon he could coach to a flag.

As far as footy knowledge and strategy goes Bucks has few peers.

I think he can coach another side to a flag if he leaves the uber defence plan in the bin, way too heavy focus on defence both made it painful viewing and neglected scoring ourselves.

 

[jmac70]

You were quite rightly chastised the first time. Losing a grand final is never a blessing and winning a grand final is no guarantee that a coach gets a lifetime contract. This week being a case in point. Our 1990 “ job for life” premiership coach another.

That day was the worst I’ve ever experienced at the footy. For anyone to suggest it was a “blessing” is sick.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think he can coach another side to a flag if he leaves the uber defence plan in the bin, way too heavy focus on defence both made it painful viewing and neglected scoring ourselves.

To be fair, we weren't exactly gifted with forward talent at the time, apart from Checkers, Billy and Degs (which left a hole in the middle), yeah the defensive game plan was probably a little overboard.

Willing to bet if Bucks had the added likes of Ginni, Johnson, a now Cox and Bobby the plan wouldn't have been so team defence orientated.

And yeah I reckon Bucks could bring a group to a flag, hopefully a team like the suns.

 

[Chameleon75]

I think he can coach another side to a flag if he leaves the uber defence plan in the bin, way too heavy focus on defence both made it painful viewing and neglected scoring ourselves.

given he was defending Carlton’s ball movement on sen after their Brisbane loss, comparing it to st kildas like they were the benchmark. Id say he’s pretty wedded to the Uber defensive, maintain possession at all costs style.

 

[Bianconeri]

I think he can coach another side to a flag if he leaves the uber defence plan in the bin, way too heavy focus on defence both made it painful viewing and neglected scoring ourselves.

So essentially if he gives up his football philosophy he spent 10 years developing then he could succeed.