Play Nice Hannah Mouncey, transgender AFLW hopeful

[Taylor]

The solution would be somewhere between doing everything possible to make life as good as it can be for someone and doing permanent change to a person that could later have an effective treatment applied once the pathology of the condition is discovered.

Human psychological treatment has been full of acute disasters using the best understanding at the time and the best of intentions. It would be a terrible shame for a generation of children to grow up disfigured and later treated, to then find themselves looking for someone to blame.

That's the argument against intervention in children, I guess.

 

[Cleric]

The, 'if I think I am a cat' argument.

No one is arguing that gender dysmorphia isn't in the head, however, someone who has the delusion of being a cat actually think they are a cat, and if you can break the delusion, the belief ends. There are usually other delusions as well, it would be unusual to think you are a cat, and be perfectly rational about everything else.

People with dysmorphia are perfectly well aware of the body they are in. Hannah is perfectly well aware she was born male, and is likely entirely rational about everything else. Her understanding of her situation is rational.

The sorts of treatment that might break you of your belief you are a cat also don't affect dysmorphia.

So, what would your solution be?



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Sometimes there just isn't a solution. Sometimes in life your expectations and desires don't get met.
A want to be an NBA champion , but I don't have what it takes physically to make it. Unfortunately for trans people, they don't have what is required to play in sports with the sex they wernt assigned at birth.
Bad luck. Either play sport socially in a mix comp, or realise that you don't get everything you want. To think or expect the rest of society should suspended reality and change everything for you is as realistic as me expecting the NBA to reduce the height of the net and make the ball smaller so I can have a chance to realise my dreams.

 

[John Who]

Sometimes there just isn't a solution. Sometimes in life your expectations and desires don't get met.
A want to be an NBA champion , but I don't have what it takes physically to make it. Unfortunately for trans people, they don't have what is required to play in sports with the sex they wernt assigned at birth.
Bad luck. Either play sport socially in a mix comp, or realise that you don't get everything you want. To think or expect the rest of society should suspended reality and change everything for you is as realistic as me expecting the NBA to reduce the height of the net and make the ball smaller so I can have a chance to realise my dreams.

Your point is valid. But your point is not the definitive answer to this thread.
The question should be "to which biological parameters can we monitor/adjust to allow transgenders the opportunity to fit into society?" and "to what level of sophistication do we attempt in trying to find the answer to keep transgenders/non-transgenders a happy medium in sports?"

If we try our best to find the solution and realise things can never be "perfect" but "close to perfect solution", then so be it. Whether Hannah fits in the new system or not, then so be it, that's life (as you originally implied). The difference between your argument and others is that we shouldn't bother figuring out any solution at all, as opposed to let's give it a shot finding one!

 

[quotemokc]

Your point is valid. But your point is not the definitive answer to this thread.
The question should be "to which biological parameters can we monitor/adjust to allow transgenders the opportunity to fit into society?" and "to what level of sophistication do we attempt in trying to find the answer to keep transgenders/non-transgenders a happy medium in sports?"

If we try our best to find the solution and realise things can never be "perfect" but "close to perfect solution", then so be it. Whether Hannah fits in the new system or not, then so be it, that's life (as you originally implied). The difference between your argument and others is that we shouldn't bother figuring out any solution at all, as opposed to let's give it a shot finding one!

Mouncey is more than welcome to play sport, no one is stopping them.

It is when it reaches a point of being paid to win in a parity competition, no one has a right to professional sport.

When I play mixed casual sports on the weekends the men tend to dominate, but that is fine because its casual.

 

[Cleric]

Your point is valid. But your point is not the definitive answer to this thread.
The question should be "to which biological parameters can we monitor/adjust to allow transgenders the opportunity to fit into society?" and "to what level of sophistication do we attempt in trying to find the answer to keep transgenders/non-transgenders a happy medium in sports?"

If we try our best to find the solution and realise things can never be "perfect" but "close to perfect solution", then so be it. Whether Hannah fits in the new system or not, then so be it, that's life (as you originally implied). The difference between your argument and others is that we shouldn't bother figuring out any solution at all, as opposed to let's give it a shot finding one!

To be blunt, the exceptions dont change the rules.
If you feel so motivated to find a solution you can get all the other people who feel the same way and set up your own footy organisation which caters to trans people.
Dont expect everyone else to have to change their leagues because you are too lazy and authoritarian to do it yourself.

 

[John Who]

Mouncey is more than welcome to play sport, no one is stopping them.

It is when it reaches a point of being paid to win in a parity competition, no one has a right to professional sport.

When I play mixed casual sports on the weekends the men tend to dominate, but that is fine because its casual.

I've made a point on another previous thread somewhere and I'll say it again here..

Imagine Hannah was a small petite transgender female, would it then cause such a kafuffle? Or would we get the same reaction to what we're seeing/debating on regarding the real bigger-than-the-average-size-female Hannah? I would imagine not the same reaction.

If we can somehow forget about her size being the main issue, we need to focus on the core issues to link with transgenders and sports in general. I'm not saying I know the answers by the way, but I think it's a topic that is very interesting as it links with various subjects that likely needs the likes of PhD people to figure it all out!

 

[John Who]

To be blunt, the exceptions dont change the rules.
If you feel so motivated to find a solution you can get all the other people who feel the same way and set up your own footy organisation which caters to trans people.
Dont expect everyone else to have to change their leagues because you are too lazy and authoritarian to do it yourself.

So do you think transgenders should have their own public toilets? Specified areas on aeroplanes? Specialised seating areas in the cinemas?

If the answer is "no" to any of the above, why are we being so narrow-minded in an objection for transgenders to be involved in sports? Which by the way is already being integrated by a fair few sports already. AFL just happens to be new to the female league and a decade or two behind the integration of transgenders.

 

[kirsti]

As long as the comparison to the average population is paired it would work, my untested hypothesis is that the average man is closer to the elite sportsman's size/power than the average woman is to the elite sportswoman's size/power.

That is to say that the advantages that are afforded for size/power create such an advantage for large women that they excel against their peers, where men aren't such stand outs for being large so they don't dominate for that same reason, the advantage isn't as pronounced.

Tennis is a good example because it isn't a contact sport but still requires power and the best woman tennis player in the world is rated as being outside the top 200 male tennis players. That old, 5% of women could beat up 95% of guys while 95% of guys could beat up 95% of women.

The big caveat is that this is an untested hypothesis. If it were true the next question would be how much of that natural advantage can be mitigated through drugs and does turning an otherwise average man athletically into an elite sportswoman represent fair to those competing against this woman.

So do you think transgenders should have their own public toilets? Specified areas on aeroplanes? Specialised seating areas in the cinemas?

If the answer is "no" to any of the above, why are we being so narrow-minded in an objection for transgenders to be involved in sports? Which by the way is already being integrated by a fair few sports already. AFL just happens to be new to the female league and a decade or two behind the integration of transgenders.

The ‘transex’d’ body is not the problem. It is projected as being ‘the problem as it physically represents visually challenging then parallels of the body types; and threatens the social ideals created to which society and sport is developed upon. That is what is happening. What we need to change is not women’s or athletes bodies; but creating how we do sport. With a focus on individuality, diversity, inclusion and accessibility to sport.

Sport is predicated on success no matter ones sex a convergence of technology, coaching, diet, financing, social opportunity, support and one’s born talent.

The sciences debunk this ‘social modeling’, and once you understand these issues it is truly a @METOO issue, a women’s issues and social issue of sport.

Testosterone determines speed and strength and transgender athletes will always have an advantage, Untrue, testosterone plays 200 key health roles in the human physiology separate of the sex of the body every single day. It is not based on volume testosterone. It is based on the combination of genes, receptors and chromosomes. There are 40,000 genes in the human physiology,100 different receptor types. When combined, creates infinite possibilities separate of the sex of the body. The IOC, WADA or the AFL have never done the research; and they do not even have the right starting point. The only way this could work based on volume testosterone is if every athlete in the world was bio tested pre puberty and tested throughout their entire sporting career globally. So it is impossible.

XX females androgen receptors designed by nature for the purpose of conception, are highly sensitive to testosterone requiring 6-8 times less to attain the same level of health of someone born XY chromosome. An XY male becomes unwell at 9-12nimol/L androgens known as Hypogonadism. Requiring Androgen support to bring up levels to meet the needs of healthy body function. An XY female goes into menopause at 9.6nmol/L after transition the body loses the ability to generate any hormone and reduced to a level 0.4nmol /L. The transitioned females are made very unwell. Eventually making sport impossible. The XX female functions healthy between nurtural testosterone levels 1-3nmol/L. Below 1nmol/L XX women become unwell. This illustrates the receptor uptake ability and sensitivity of XX females. XX women and XY women physiologies should never be compared as the same; XX women always healthy, XY women are the only women forced to compete in sport unhealthy, in a complete androgen deprivation state – only athlete competing unwell as a prerequisite to participate in sport.

The XY transitioned female generates no hormones within an acute few years, then body goes into complete menopausal state; due to complete androgen deprivation creating 24 major contraindications the body no longer is able to support itself as protein cell synthesis ceases, which is a key need and function of the human physiology which all high performance athlete require need to maintain health body and in mind. The transitioned female is actually competing at a disadvantage and eventually will no longer be able to participate in high performance sport due to the bodies ability unable to support itself, putting the athlete at incredible risk.

We must change how we do sport not athletes bodies and putting them at risk based on social ideology which is happening now. With XX men, the reverse is happening which whom are taking high levels of testosterone and hyper sensitive to androgen uptake – now out performing XY males in high performance ‘endurance sport and body building sports’.

Transgender athletes will always be bigger and therefore stronger, As explained this is not a transgender issue – an umbrella term. Transition and body types vary massively this is an individual issue based on body type and ones sex.

The umbrella is false and stops people from learning and learning about their own body types.

Women like men, come at all sizes, shapes and heights. We fail to support women like we do men do too social ideals and placed barriers put on women’s’ bodies. Women cannot be athletes first, have to assure femininity and men are unlimited barriers. Through social change, women are changing and need to be allowed to be ‘strong bodied’, as they improve in high performance sport they are being put at great risk if they cannot be strong bodies. We are just on the cusp of women’s performance, and what is possible for women we are still talking about ‘equality and 50/50 medals in 2018.

Which again is socially designed it’s no wonder we are struggling with these issues. It is not the athlete and should never be the their burden. This is about how we do sport and how we need to change.

No young person and or athlete should ever have to prove their identity or change their bodies for anyone to play sport – to ride their bike, kick a ball or run around a track, the impact is to enormous. This is this assumption that the International Olympic Committee did research to support their current policies to regulate sport. It is untrue. No work was ever done. Moreover this is and never a ‘transgender’ issue ever. If the IOC did the work in the first place, one this would be acknowledged, and secondly we would be working towards as system of individuality, diversity, inclusion and accessibility and embracing the human ability no matter of one sex or body type.

The IPC movement has taught great lessons, and shown what inclusion looks like when embracing human difference and appreciating human individuality and ones ability.

This is about how we do sport. We need to educate towards a system that protects individual athlete health and longterm well-being. The conversation has shifted now from an issue of performance to longterm and protections of the athletes participation in sport longterm.

http://www.transvalid.org/portfolio/the-advantage-myth-in-transgender-athletes/

 

[kirsti]

We need sports to review & revise internal policies to embrace human rights, secondly sports should be working towards a system of individuality, diversity, inclusion & accessibility & embracing the human ability no matter of one sex or body type.

The assumption is that the @iocmedia / @wada_ama did research to support their current policies to regulate sport. It is untrue. No work was ever done. If the IOC did the work in the first place, one this would be acknowledged.

WADA allows men diagnosed with low testosterone to apply for an exemption to take synthetic testosterone, an otherwise banned substance, because they have a medical need.
In the same document, WADA stipulates(in bold font)that this exception “should not be approved for females”.Even if a woman’s testosterone falls below a healthy limit,she isnot granted the same opportunity as a man to raise it to levels commensurate with her same-sex competitors.

Trans male athletes(who transition from female to male), however, can compete hormonally unfettered. In fact, @wada_ama maintains that the use of synthetic testosterone“is essential for completion of the anatomical and psychological transition process in female-to-male athletes”.

In a separate document, WADA insists that “there is no known indication for testosterone supplementation in transgender female athletes”.

This means that testosterone is not just about performance enhancement, but also about one’s health and wellbeing. But only when it comes to men.

Not true, says cyclist Kristen Worley and, in 2017, the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario in Canada concurred.

http://www.hrlsc.on.ca/sites/defaul.../2017-07-06 Worley v OCA CC MOS public.pdf

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Cleric]

So do you think transgenders should have their own public toilets? Specified areas on aeroplanes? Specialised seating areas in the cinemas?

If the answer is "no" to any of the above, why are we being so narrow-minded in an objection for transgenders to be involved in sports? Which by the way is already being integrated by a fair few sports already. AFL just happens to be new to the female league and a decade or two behind the integration of transgenders.

I think they should have three toilets. Male, female and mix. Every single public toilet I see now has a handicap one as well, make that mix.
Then anyone that goes in or comes out isnt looked at or questioned, or even worse beaten up.
I feel the exact same for sports.

 

[owen87]

With a focus on individuality, diversity, inclusion and accessibility to sport.

This is all well and good at the local / social level; but when professional sport is the topic this argument doesn't hold true.

The AFL doesn't focus on 'inclusion' and 'accessibility' when I decide I should be allowed to play for Essendon, elite sport is discriminatory in it's very nature.

No one has any right to compete at the elite level.

 

[kirsti]

This is all well and good at the local / social level; but when professional sport is the topic this argument doesn't hold true.

The AFL doesn't focus on 'inclusion' and 'accessibility' when I decide I should be allowed to play for Essendon, elite sport is discriminatory in it's very nature.

No one has any right to compete at the elite level.

The AFL is committed to the inclusion of gender diverse people in our game. The AFL intends that gender diverse players that are registered to play football in the competition that accords with their identified gender are supported in doing so in a safe and inclusive environment.
Harassment and discrimination of gender diverse players engaging in Australian Rules Football at any level is not tolerated and will be handled in accordance with the applicable rules and regulations of the relevant Australian Rules Football competition.
Both State and Federal legislation prohibits discrimination against a person on the basis of their gender identity
in different areas of public life, including sport.https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/AFL/Files/Gender Diversity Policy.pdf

 

[Taylor]

An exception arises under various legislation to permit discrimination in sport on the basis of gender identity where the relative difference in strength, stamina or physique of a trans or non-binary player is significant in the sense that it has an appreciable affect on their ability to compete.

The first transgender player shouldn't have been the next to extreme option. That exception allows a lot of wiggle room.

 

[sprockets]

The AFL is committed to the inclusion of gender diverse people in our game. The AFL intends that gender diverse players that are registered to play football in the competition that accords with their identified gender are supported in doing so in a safe and inclusive environment.
Harassment and discrimination of gender diverse players engaging in Australian Rules Football at any level is not tolerated and will be handled in accordance with the applicable rules and regulations of the relevant Australian Rules Football competition.
Both State and Federal legislation prohibits discrimination against a person on the basis of their gender identity
in different areas of public life, including sport.https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/AFL/Files/Gender Diversity Policy.pdf

Will the AFL allow women to play in the men's competition and vice versa? Why not?

 

[Taylor]

Will the AFL allow women to play in the men's competition and vice versa? Why not?

I think they will if she is good enough.

The problem is I think an U15s school AFL team of boys would beat the AFLW All Australian team.

 

[Rob]

I think they will if she is good enough.

Jesus, the AFL would jump at the opportunity. It would rightfully make headlines around the world.

But the reality is the best AFLW player wouldn't be even nearly good enough to play A grade amateurs, let alone the AFL.

 

[Fadge]

Why is the most discussed topic in the AFLW Forum someone who doesn't play AFLW?

 

[Kappa]

Will the AFL allow women to play in the men's competition and vice versa? Why not?

Absolutely 0% chance.

 

[Kappa]

Jesus, the AFL would jump at the opportunity. It would rightfully make headlines around the world.

But the reality is the best AFLW player wouldn't be even nearly good enough to play A grade amateurs, let alone the AFL.

Imagine the headlines every time she gets hit or tackled too hard or sledged, PR nightmare. Not to mention no one actually wants it to happen, and it's pretty much a physical impossibility. It's just like wondering if a female sprinter will ever get to the same speed as a male sprinter.

 

[Taylor]

Jesus, the AFL would jump at the opportunity. It would rightfully make headlines around the world.

But the reality is the best AFLW player wouldn't be even nearly good enough to play A grade amateurs, let alone the AFL.

Yeah, I said it in another thread but she would be the highest paid player in the league. Not because she was the best player but because every brand would want her to be the face of their product, if she was beautiful... Oh wow.

If it were me I'd have a weetbix ad, a nurtigrain ad with the abs out, lady brut, poweraid, even a MacDonalds health program ambassador position.

Miiiiiinted.

 

[sprockets]

I think they will if she is good enough.

The problem is I think an U15s school AFL team of boys would beat the AFLW All Australian team.

There won't be a 'good enough' female in our lifetime because men and women are physically different and AFL and most sport is based on that difference. In the future, with chemical modification, that may change but sport isn't about chemical modification, is it.

 

[John Who]

The first transgender player shouldn't have been the next to extreme option. That exception allows a lot of wiggle room.

This has actually got me stated thinking..
Were there any other XY transgenders applying for the AFLW? Is Hannah the one and only transgender that's made an application?
Or maybe is this put on the spotlight to help fuel gossip and spread engagement amongst fans regarding AFLW?

 

[John Who]

There won't be a 'good enough' female in our lifetime because men and women are physically different and AFL and most sport is based on that difference. In the future, with chemical modification, that may change but sport isn't about chemical modification, is it.

I'm actually not so sure about this bolded statement in your post. From the Crows AFLW, Erin Philips and Chelsea Randall are atheletic beasts. Imagine they were actually playing every year in the junior ranks up until now, then I'd suspect they could be very handy AFL players! Not to mention if they were allowed to take testosterone to convert to "a male" form, then their athletic powers would be even better!

 

[Rob]

Imagine the headlines every time she gets hit or tackled too hard or sledged, PR nightmare. Not to mention no one actually wants it to happen, and it's pretty much a physical impossibility. It's just like wondering if a female sprinter will ever get to the same speed as a male sprinter.

Yeah, but bear in mind that if it were to happen, she wouldn't be plucked out of the AFLW. She would have spent significant time playing in (and dominating) lower tier mens comps first so all the headlines have probably already happened. Hell, imagine a female in just a state league - it would be front page news around the country.

But it's so ridiculous and far fetched that it's probably not even worth discussing.

 

[Taylor]

I'm actually not so sure about this bolded statement in your post. From the Crows AFLW, Erin Philips and Chelsea Randall are atheletic beasts. Imagine they were actually playing every year in the junior ranks up until now, then I'd suspect they could be very handy AFL players! Not to mention if they were allowed to take testosterone to convert to "a male" form, then their athletic powers would be even better!

Up until this year the AFLW combine records for the 2km time trial and 20m sprint were far, far behind the guys. About 45s per km and half a second over 20m.

I'm not convinced any AFLW athlete has the ability to match it with any of the teenage AFL Combine invitees.

Men:
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Women:
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I would like to see a direct comparison but there is nothing to gain from humiliating the AFLW in an exercise to show why women have their own league.