Have the tigers rendered stats useless?

The Cryptkeeper

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Oct 9, 2006
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Super Tottenham....from the Lane.
GWS had one more stat than the tigers in the GF but lost by 89 points. Incredible! Often, I saw losing coaches against the tigers in press conferences lament how they won this stat or that stat yet lost the game and were suitably miffed ( Re Fagan in his two encounters against them- watch the pressers). They don't rank highly in a number of the so called important key stats but clearly were the best team winning their finals by an average of some 50 plus points, after doing something similar in 2017. Martin has 19 possessions and gets bog, cothcin doesn't rack up numbers but has significant influence etc etc and their knock it on smash it forward style doesn't lend itself to winning a lot of categories relative to their dominance.

Are we measuring the wrong thing? Just how important are they when you have more stats and lose by 89 points?

Richmond seem to win the key-stat most of the time. In fact, they've won it in the final game of the year on two of the last three occasions.
 

greatwhiteshark

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There's certainly players that provide much more value per disposal; look at Jetta against Essendon in the finals last year, absolutely carved us up. You'd much rather Jetta having 20 disposals than a Priddis type racking up 30.
Jetta and Rioli are certainly players that can have have a big influence without high numbers, but they are rare players to find and not the norm. Way to many players running around in the AFL that struggle to find the ball.
 

Reservoir tiger

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Jetta and Rioli are certainly players that can have have a big influence without high numbers, but they are rare players to find and not the norm. Way to many players running around in the AFL that struggle to find the ball.
I think Richmond is very unique in the fact these players are much more the norm than what other clubs have. Give me 15-20 possessions from Edwards Martin Cotchin over 40 plus from players like Neale or treloar or mitchell any day of the week.
And give me just 10-15 from Bolton stack Rioli castagna and we’re good.
 

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hawkman

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Jun 7, 2007
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Aside obviously for the scoreboard the only stat I put much interest in is inside 50s.

At least it indicates that you can compete generally and if nothing else shows you can force pressure onto an opposition defence. If that defence is good enough - or if your own is very poor - it can be inconsequential but it gives you something to work with.
Not always the greatest stat as the 08GF, 09GF, 10GF and 12GF showed
 

greatwhiteshark

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I think Richmond is very unique in the fact these players are much more the norm than what other clubs have. Give me 15-20 possessions from Edwards Martin Cotchin over 40 plus from players like Neale or treloar or mitchell any day of the week.
And give me just 10-15 from Bolton stack Rioli castagna and we’re good.
And this is exactly why you have won flags and are favourites again.
 

nineteen eighty

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Gotta love these AFL experts. 5 years ago, it was about this premiership standard of averaging 100 points a game in attack and concede no more than 85 or 86 points in attack. That's bastardization theory has been killed off in each of the Last 4 years.

Dogs in 2016 averaged 84 points in attack and. 72 in defence

Tiger's in 2017 averaging 90.5 point in attack and 76.5 points in defence.

Eagles in 2018 averaged 91 points in attack and 75 in defence. Their opponents in Collingwood averaged 93 points in attack, 77 in defence.

Richmond in 2019 averaging 86 points a game and 73 in defence while GWS posted similar stats
Not sure about the others but in '16, the Dogs lifted their points for to around 100 in the finals (if I remember correctly).
 

nineteen eighty

Norm Smith Medallist
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Aside obviously for the scoreboard the only stat I put much interest in is inside 50s.

At least it indicates that you can compete generally and if nothing else shows you can force pressure onto an opposition defence. If that defence is good enough - or if your own is very poor - it can be inconsequential but it gives you something to work with.
And to give the Dees supporters some hope, that is why they can easily rise up the ladder this year.

Tremendous 150 team...sh1thouse at converting.

If only they can get their forward line to function.
 

nineteen eighty

Norm Smith Medallist
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Average scoring is down, but if you look at the ratio of attack : defence you end up with similar outcomes;

100 / 86 = 1.16
2016 = 1.16
2017 = 1.18
2018 = 1.21
2019 = 1.17

So the stat holds albeit adjusted for current scoring trends, successful terms score on average 16% more than they concede in a premiership winning season.
Any chance of you doing the same but only for finals since '16. Would be interested in seeing how finals compare to an overall season.
 

PhatBoy

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May 5, 2016
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Not always the greatest stat as the 08GF, 09GF, 10GF and 12GF showed
Absolutely but it can give a very good insight into where you’re breaking down or in the reverse case, what areas of the field you can rely on to step uP
 

Yojimbo

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Nov 14, 2012
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Meters gained is the new stat in footy.
Yes it is.

Dustin Martin:
Rank 19 -(2019)- 457.87
Rank 19 -(2018)- 439.52
Rank 8 -(2017)- 482.92
Rank 16 -(2016)- 454.00
Rank 7 -(2015)- 457.91

Bachar Houli:
Rank 8 -(2019)- 481.23
Rank 42 -(2018)- 393.07
Rank 34 -(2017)- 415.71
Rank 27 -(2016)- 428.58
Rank 13 -(2015)- 445.09

Now is there a correlation between Metres Gained and Scoring and frontal pressure ?
 

Yojimbo

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Yes it is.

Dustin Martin:
Rank 19 -(2019)- 457.87
Rank 19 -(2018)- 439.52
Rank 8 -(2017)- 482.92
Rank 16 -(2016)- 454.00
Rank 7 -(2015)- 457.91

Bachar Houli:
Rank 8 -(2019)- 481.23
Rank 42 -(2018)- 393.07
Rank 34 -(2017)- 415.71
Rank 27 -(2016)- 428.58
Rank 13 -(2015)- 445.09

Now is there a correlation between Metres Gained and Scoring and frontal pressure ?
Don't know why that's blue and underlined not my doing.
 

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FlowersByIrene

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
 

owen87

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Apr 23, 2016
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Any chance of you doing the same but only for finals since '16. Would be interested in seeing how finals compare to an overall season.

Much more indepth analysis wise, but you can see that recent premiership winners are lower scoring but also more restrictive. I'd read that as a general decrease in scoring across the league.

I don't know if anyone specifically has data for just finals without going to do it manually, Final Siren might have something tucked away with squiggle though.

Looking at that, we all thought Bulldogs 2016' was an outlier in terms of scoring, but seems the trend has held since then.
 

CotchNCo

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
This is such nonsense haha. We slice through teams with skills on the regular. The good thing is we can do both and not reliant on playing perfect footy. Sign of a good footy side.
 

Reservoir tiger

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
LOVE this 😂

made my day 👌
 

nineteen eighty

Norm Smith Medallist
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Much more indepth analysis wise, but you can see that recent premiership winners are lower scoring but also more restrictive. I'd read that as a general decrease in scoring across the league.

I don't know if anyone specifically has data for just finals without going to do it manually, Final Siren might have something tucked away with squiggle though.

Looking at that, we all thought Bulldogs 2016' was an outlier in terms of scoring, but seems the trend has held since then.
I'm pretty sure that the Bulldogs points for in finals was close to 100...if not over. I just find that what is important is not what happens during the season but what happens in finals. Teams can go up a level in September (as opposed to holding form) and the Bullies were definitely a case in point that year.
 

Ron The Bear

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
Richmond is 11th for tackles across the last three years (7th/14th/11th). There is more rubbish printed about Richmond than any other club, which is partly why their success remains a source of frustration to some.
 

Tiger Toffee

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
No, Carlton is what is wrong with footy right now, should've been booted out of the comp Bury style for cheating the cap and then we could've welcomed Fitzroy back with open arms.
 

Andyy

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
So...you think it's better if a team doesn't run hard and push the ball forward? Teams should stop tackling opposition players in the F50?

I always used to be frustrated watching Richmond's poor tackling. To see them doing it well is wonderful. There's also something smart about the ball movement, sometimes it's clean sometimes it's not, but at least they move it forward!
 

Final Siren

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Much more indepth analysis wise, but you can see that recent premiership winners are lower scoring but also more restrictive. I'd read that as a general decrease in scoring across the league.

I don't know if anyone specifically has data for just finals without going to do it manually, Final Siren might have something tucked away with squiggle though.

Looking at that, we all thought Bulldogs 2016' was an outlier in terms of scoring, but seems the trend has held since then.
Finals tend to be a lot more one-sided.

Code:
+------+------------------+--------+------+---------+----------+-------------+--------+
| year | name             | Finals | For  | Against | Avg For  | Avg Against | Ratio  |
+------+------------------+--------+------+---------+----------+-------------+--------+
| 2000 | Essendon         |      3 |  458 |     228 | 152.6667 |     76.0000 | 2.0088 |
| 2001 | Brisbane Lions   |      3 |  332 |     206 | 110.6667 |     68.6667 | 1.6117 |
| 2002 | Brisbane Lions   |      3 |  328 |     192 | 109.3333 |     64.0000 | 1.7083 |
| 2003 | Brisbane Lions   |      4 |  409 |     288 | 102.2500 |     72.0000 | 1.4201 |
| 2004 | Port Adelaide    |      3 |  324 |     223 | 108.0000 |     74.3333 | 1.4529 |
| 2005 | Sydney           |      4 |  275 |     241 |  68.7500 |     60.2500 | 1.1411 |
| 2006 | West Coast       |      4 |  367 |     283 |  91.7500 |     70.7500 | 1.2968 |
| 2007 | Geelong          |      3 |  411 |     181 | 137.0000 |     60.3333 | 2.2707 |
| 2008 | Hawthorn         |      3 |  360 |     229 | 120.0000 |     76.3333 | 1.5721 |
| 2009 | Geelong          |      3 |  296 |     197 |  98.6667 |     65.6667 | 1.5025 |
| 2010 | Collingwood      |      4 |  420 |     261 | 105.0000 |     65.2500 | 1.6092 |
| 2011 | Geelong          |      3 |  334 |     217 | 111.3333 |     72.3333 | 1.5392 |
| 2012 | Sydney           |      3 |  258 |     193 |  86.0000 |     64.3333 | 1.3368 |
| 2013 | Hawthorn         |      3 |  284 |     210 |  94.6667 |     70.0000 | 1.3524 |
| 2014 | Hawthorn         |      3 |  338 |     236 | 112.6667 |     78.6667 | 1.4322 |
| 2015 | Hawthorn         |      4 |  400 |     285 | 100.0000 |     71.2500 | 1.4035 |
| 2016 | Western Bulldogs |      4 |  384 |     286 |  96.0000 |     71.5000 | 1.3427 |
| 2017 | Richmond         |      3 |  302 |     167 | 100.6667 |     55.6667 | 1.8084 |
| 2018 | West Coast       |      3 |  286 |     199 |  95.3333 |     66.3333 | 1.4372 |
| 2019 | Richmond         |      3 |  311 |     156 | 103.6667 |     52.0000 | 1.9936 |
+------+------------------+--------+------+---------+----------+-------------+--------+
 

richoatthedisco

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Jun 18, 2007
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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
Laughably ignorant/salty. You should watch a Richmond game, we're brilliant. How footy should be played. Electric.
 

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