Have the tigers rendered stats useless?

owen87

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Finals tend to be a lot more one-sided.

Code:
+------+------------------+--------+------+---------+----------+-------------+--------+
| year | name             | Finals | For  | Against | Avg For  | Avg Against | Ratio  |
+------+------------------+--------+------+---------+----------+-------------+--------+
| 2000 | Essendon         |      3 |  458 |     228 | 152.6667 |     76.0000 | 2.0088 |
| 2001 | Brisbane Lions   |      3 |  332 |     206 | 110.6667 |     68.6667 | 1.6117 |
| 2002 | Brisbane Lions   |      3 |  328 |     192 | 109.3333 |     64.0000 | 1.7083 |
| 2003 | Brisbane Lions   |      4 |  409 |     288 | 102.2500 |     72.0000 | 1.4201 |
| 2004 | Port Adelaide    |      3 |  324 |     223 | 108.0000 |     74.3333 | 1.4529 |
| 2005 | Sydney           |      4 |  275 |     241 |  68.7500 |     60.2500 | 1.1411 |
| 2006 | West Coast       |      4 |  367 |     283 |  91.7500 |     70.7500 | 1.2968 |
| 2007 | Geelong          |      3 |  411 |     181 | 137.0000 |     60.3333 | 2.2707 |
| 2008 | Hawthorn         |      3 |  360 |     229 | 120.0000 |     76.3333 | 1.5721 |
| 2009 | Geelong          |      3 |  296 |     197 |  98.6667 |     65.6667 | 1.5025 |
| 2010 | Collingwood      |      4 |  420 |     261 | 105.0000 |     65.2500 | 1.6092 |
| 2011 | Geelong          |      3 |  334 |     217 | 111.3333 |     72.3333 | 1.5392 |
| 2012 | Sydney           |      3 |  258 |     193 |  86.0000 |     64.3333 | 1.3368 |
| 2013 | Hawthorn         |      3 |  284 |     210 |  94.6667 |     70.0000 | 1.3524 |
| 2014 | Hawthorn         |      3 |  338 |     236 | 112.6667 |     78.6667 | 1.4322 |
| 2015 | Hawthorn         |      4 |  400 |     285 | 100.0000 |     71.2500 | 1.4035 |
| 2016 | Western Bulldogs |      4 |  384 |     286 |  96.0000 |     71.5000 | 1.3427 |
| 2017 | Richmond         |      3 |  302 |     167 | 100.6667 |     55.6667 | 1.8084 |
| 2018 | West Coast       |      3 |  286 |     199 |  95.3333 |     66.3333 | 1.4372 |
| 2019 | Richmond         |      3 |  311 |     156 | 103.6667 |     52.0000 | 1.9936 |
+------+------------------+--------+------+---------+----------+-------------+--------+
hah of course you have the data!

I wonder how much of this is skewed due to blowouts - e.g. removing Richmond v GWS in 2019 brings Richmond 2019 back down to 1.5

I'd imagine the nature of the game where there's 0 benefit for a close loss means once the game is lost, the players check out and let the margins go.

nineteen eighty this is what you wanted to see by the way
 

Freomaniac

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Not sure about the others but in '16, the Dogs lifted their points for to around 100 in the finals (if I remember correctly).
did the dogs score 100 points on grand final day 2016 vs the swans? no they didnt.

The crows in 2017 averaged 110 points in attack and conceded 80 a game during the regular season. you tell me how they did in the 2017 grand final
 

Freomaniac

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Average scoring is down, but if you look at the ratio of attack : defence you end up with similar outcomes;

100 / 86 = 1.16
2016 = 1.16
2017 = 1.18
2018 = 1.21
2019 = 1.17

So the stat holds albeit adjusted for current scoring trends, successful terms score on average 16% more than they concede in a premiership winning season.
I dont care about ratio in attack.

from 2012-2015 there were a lot of anti ross lyon posters on here because Ross Lyon teams couldnt average 100 points a game.

so why has the last 4 AFL premiers been averaging less than 100 points a game in attack?

2 of those 4 sides averaged 84 and 86 points a game in attack
 

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owen87

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I dont care about ratio in attack.

from 2012-2015 there were a lot of anti ross lyon posters on here because Ross Lyon teams couldnt average 100 points a game.

so why has the last 4 AFL premiers been averaging less than 100 points a game in attack?

2 of those 4 sides averaged 84 and 86 points a game in attack
For someone who hates Ross Lyon you're now defending Ross Lyon....

There's been a clear decrease in scoring competition wide, this isn't like when Ross coached Fremantle and they were an outlier in terms of low scoring versus relatively high scoring sides, two of the last twenty premiers have average below 90 points in a finals series.

It's a really odd argument you're making.
 

Captain chaos

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I think Richmond is very unique in the fact these players are much more the norm than what other clubs have. Give me 15-20 possessions from Edwards Martin Cotchin over 40 plus from players like Neale or treloar or mitchell any day of the week.
And give me just 10-15 from Bolton stack Rioli castagna and we’re good.
Excellent summary
 

Freomaniac

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For someone who hates Ross Lyon you're now defending Ross Lyon....

There's been a clear decrease in scoring competition wide, this isn't like when Ross coached Fremantle and they were an outlier in terms of low scoring versus relatively high scoring sides, two of the last twenty premiers have average below 90 points in a finals series.

It's a really odd argument you're making.
your confused mate.

I have never hated Ross Lyon, especally when he was at freo.

Whos to blame for the decrease in scoring?

The funny thing is they brought in this 666 rule to Kill off Ross Lyon tactics. The AFL got their wish and got rid of Ross Lyon tactics. It then backfired as it translated to even lower scores.

I cant wait for this season to start again and I hope for the 5th year in a row, another team that averages less than 100 points a game in attack wins the flag again.

I also hope the the 2020 grand final winner does not kick 100 points either
 

telsor

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Jetta and Rioli are certainly players that can have have a big influence without high numbers, but they are rare players to find and not the norm. Way to many players running around in the AFL that struggle to find the ball.
One of the knocks on Cotchin for years was that he got meaningless possessions, give and go handballs, etc.

Now he gets probably 2/3 the numbers but most would agree he has more impact. (of course, the haters on BF now say he doesn't get enough of the ball to be any good...).

In both cases it was a matter of working for the good of the game plan, and as an aside, that's actually his biggest value...He leads by example and by doing so inspires his teammates to put the team first.





I think Richmond is very unique in
*GRRR* There is no such thing as VERY unique! It's either unique or it isn't.
 

amcre

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
I honestly hope you're right. I'm bored of monstering the comp. Looking forward to a closer Grand Final or just a full rebuild and watching a new team come through.




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Tenny

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I honestly hope you're right. I'm bored of monstering the comp. Looking forward to a closer Grand Final or just a full rebuild and watching a new team come through.




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We’ve rebuilt whilst still being in our window, which is what Geelong and Hawthorn couldn’t do. Richmond will be up for a long time, unfortunately for opposition supporters.
 

VicBased

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
Great watching all the offended Richmond faithful leap to the defense but your post is true. what goes up must come down and Richmond will also go through the cycle.
 

Ron The Bear

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Great watching all the offended Richmond faithful leap to the defense but your post is true. what goes up must come down and Richmond will also go through the cycle.
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. But until then, the strong will have a ******* good time."

- Jesus
 

Vassp

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You have players like betts, Dusty, ablett snr just to name a few who dont always rack up big stats but can change the game with only a few possessions.
 

Tiger2709

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No. The stats showing home ground advantage in grand finals is as relevant as ever.
Its 10 wins and 8 losses for MCG tenants in Grand Finals since the AFL began and that's including the Tassie Hawks that are only part time tenants. Remove their wins/losses and it's 5 wins 7 losses for MCG tenants since 1990.
Dont the WCE's consider Km's travelled the most relevant stat?
 

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Freomaniac

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Its 10 wins and 8 losses for MCG tenants in Grand Finals since the AFL began and that's including the Tassie Hawks that are only part time tenants. Remove their wins/losses and it's 5 wins 7 losses for MCG tenants since 1990.
Dont the WCE's consider Km's travelled the most relevant stat?
Personally the head to head record on grand finals is irrelevant.

If it did, people will bitch and moan about it.

Some crows fans blame "Land rights" and home ground Advantage for their 2007 Grand final loss. Richmond outplayed them.

The one thing that has burnt in my brain was the scoreline midway in that 3rd quarter: Richmond were 9.5.59, Crows were 4.9.33. Funnily enough, no crows fans complained about the 1998 grand final win when they beat North 15.15.105 to Norths 8.22.70

Had the game been closer, maybe both teams might had a different mindset.

I am not bitter about the 2013 GF vs the Hawks. Hawks had a strong backline, a good midfield and a gun forwardline on the day. Theres a reason why they made Grand finals from 2012-15.

The 2015 Prelim loss to the hawks in Perth hurt more, most freo fans would agree as well.
 

Freomaniac

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Laughably ignorant/salty. You should watch a Richmond game, we're brilliant. How footy should be played. Electric.
ummm...... electric? Hmm..

All out attacking? Far from it. Grand final wins in 2017 and 2019 aside, your team hasnt averaged 100 points a game in attack in the regualr season.
 

Maylandsman

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You don't get it do you?

According to big footy posters, if you average 99 points a game in attack during the regular season, you are a defensive side
I get it. Just a bit dumbfounded with the comment quoted. Of all the things to hope for you’ve gone for scoring in the finals. Myself, I’m hoping for a premiership at seasons end and won’t give a second thought to average scores. Just interested in winning score. 👍. You should join the SFA next draft (That is my recruiting effort).
 

nineteen eighty

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did the dogs score 100 points on grand final day 2016 vs the swans? no they didnt.

The crows in 2017 averaged 110 points in attack and conceded 80 a game during the regular season. you tell me how they did in the 2017 grand final
Mate were you pissed when you wrote this. I have no idea what you're on about. The data actually supports my view.

Good thread otherwise.
 

nineteen eighty

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your confused mate.

I have never hated Ross Lyon, especally when he was at freo.

Whos to blame for the decrease in scoring?

The funny thing is they brought in this 666 rule to Kill off Ross Lyon tactics. The AFL got their wish and got rid of Ross Lyon tactics. It then backfired as it translated to even lower scores.

I cant wait for this season to start again and I hope for the 5th year in a row, another team that averages less than 100 points a game in attack wins the flag again.

I also hope the the 2020 grand final winner does not kick 100 points either
Haha I get your earlier response now. You weren't p1ssed...you just have a massive chip on your shoulder.

This isn't about Freo and Ross Lyon. Not sure why you've gone on the defensive.
 

richoatthedisco

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ummm...... electric? Hmm..

All out attacking? Far from it. Grand final wins in 2017 and 2019 aside, your team hasnt averaged 100 points a game in attack in the regualr season.
Did I say all out attacking? Our game is built on defense, but when we attack, it is electric.

We average 100+ in finals, when it counts.
 

Grrr

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The Tigers' model will pass and it will be a glorious day when it does. Talentless runners pushing, fumbling and knocking the ball forward for meterage and then tackling ravenously will eventually be overcome by an actually talented team who can maintain possession whilst cutting through a zone.

Needs to be a balnce of defensive tacklign and clean ball movement. That's perfect footy. Richmond is everything wrong with footy right now.
Wow, talentless runners. Who might they be. When you have backs like Grimes. Astbury, Houli and Vlaustin and forwards like Riewoldt and Lynch, you want the ball down there as quickly as possible. Lynch did a power of work in the last half of the season. Mobile 200cm players who can actually mark don't want you friggin around with the ball. Lead this way, lead that way. Riewoldt doesn't care how it comes in because he is as good on the ground as he is in the air.

Those talentless mids like Edwards, Cotchin, Martin, Caddy, Bolton, Lambert move the ball quickly because they don't ever go back to go forward. That is why Richmond fast break as they do, because they have the licence to do it. And they can. Add the class of Pickett and Stack to that midfield.

Who are these talentless players you speak of.
 

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