Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Gadzorks]

It shouldn't even be an issue BRAB lol.

But when I have to fact-check the most elementary of statements, it irritates me at the sloppiness of the reporting.

I mean, I took up a HS sub just for this story - so the sensational reporting has worked ahaha - and for my $1.00/week I EXPECT 100% ACCURACY AT ALL TIMES

It's not somethingt that needs harping on about, but it IS a reflection on the reporting standards, in this case of the HS Sports desk.

I'd rather one or two correct, well-written pieces than eleventy articles with some grainy brown nugget of fact squirreled away inside.

Then pay pay more than a dollar a week, and pay consistently so they can afford to have decent journalists with resources to produce quality work.

We have got exactly what we created.

 

[Gadzorks]

With the revelations about Sam Mitchell and his relationship with Clarkson having a light shone on it now.... IMO it is reasonable to assume that whatever happened in incidents revealed in the Hawthorn review while concerning they were not racially motivated ie. racism.

Seems like controlling behaviour and misguided but coming from a place of wanting to be in the best space to win footy games and wanting the best playing wise for the players concerned, maybe culturally insensitive but not racism. This sort of domineering persona from coaches would have been very typical in footy clubs all over the world at the time, it is only recently that the father figure/empathetic coach has been widely viewed as the best way to go now and into the future.

I am starting to see a way out of this where Clarkson and Fagan will be able to continue with their coaching.

I've coached athletics, mostly boys, for over 25 years.

I've done a lot of coaching courses, and I'm internationally accredited. Even back in the 2000s coaching courses taught not to adopt a 'saver' mentality, you were the coach. Support and direct them to help, but establish professional boundaries.

The coaches who thought they had the next Olympic champion and the coaches trying to build/ advertise their businesses are the worst. They
hammer young athletes to the point of injury, push them to sacrifice everything for the future possiblity. Most of these kids drop out from over training/ injury/ pressure/ too much personal life interference. The ones who made it came from strong supportive environments, where the coaches worked with the families and schools/ universities/ workplaces to create a healthy environment for the individual athlete.

I did not and do not believe those coaches acted in 'the athletes best interest'. I believe they did it for their glory, their own competitive need to 'win', and their coaching careers, not the athletes.

They burn through so many athletes and when the performance falls away, the coaches discard them and move into the next one. So many athletes with unbelievable potential lost, and that should never have happened.

Same as the Hawks situation to me.

Maybe the AFL need to get Jelena Dokic to run sessions for coaches on the impact of a negative environment, and Ash Barty to contrast a positive environment.

 

[BrizzyBandit]

As someone who has indigenous relatives, I cannot begin to describe some of the dysfunction that exists in first nation communities.

The cyclical violence, abuse, and mayhem that occurs is truly terrible.

As a nation we haven't solved much, yet we're about to persecute 2 or 3 AFL coaches to make ourselves feel better.

It's a joke. These politicians jump in to destroy a few lives of people who have had try and solve some of these issues... but ignore what's happening at a national level.

Can we not continue the the ‘competition over who knows the most indigenous people’ that started last night. It’s really ‘I’m not racist but’, ‘I’ve got indigenous mates so’ - it doesen’t somehow give your opinion more credibility or excuse a persons questionable position on these matters, its also very cringe.

I give a painful account of my experience within my own family and you infer I could be racist??
That I'm competing over my indigenous connection??


So many indigenous people are stuck in a horrible cycle of trauma that can be traced back to when England took this country from them only a couple hundred years ago. My post was mostly about my anger at politicians not caring about First nation people... but scoring political points targeting afl coaches.... like that will fix anything.

I stand by my statement cause it's exactly what's happening.

Just lost a lot of respect I held for you.
To dismiss someone's experiance so you can do more virtue signalling is feral.
I have experianced amazing highs and joy and the darkest possible lows with my indigenous extended family. It's tough and beautiful at the same time.

 

[BrizzyBandit]

Obviously we should do nothing in this scenario until all other problems are solved. That will guarantee improvement.

Fair point.
I'm not saying the AFL do nothing. My comment was more about politicians doing something to help first nation people rather than piling onto a couple of AFL coaches.... then continue to do nothing meaningful to effect change.

 

[BrizzyBandit]

I'm going to stick to the footy topics and bow out of this thread.

I don't like talking about politics and family.... yet I'm doing both.

This topic is obviously a little too triggering for me...

I meant no offence to anyone in here. Im out.

 

[M Malice]

Yes, with some of the more moderate examples, that is true. Cultural considerations 100% can make an act that might be rather benign to one person, incredibly traumatic to another.

Call it what you want - cultural insensitivity, an unsafe work place, bullying and intimidation, racism, a win at all costs culture - the outcome will be the same.

They are not going to excuse the suffering of these families if proven true, because it happened to white players as well - even pushing this is actually saying ‘it happened’ which we haven’t even established yet!

Also, it has been treated as a racial issue because a group of indigenous players are making the accusations. The Mitchell story broke last night and a story I read this morning had a paragraph about the Mitchell claims at the start of the story.

The media have not said ‘it’s a club wide, black and white issue’ to this point….. because it wasn’t.

I assume this new angle you’ve adopted of ‘it happened to everyone so it’s ok’ is because you’ve decided the ‘it didn’t happen’ angle is no longer justifiable?

I’m still personally hoping it didn’t happen to the families in the review and more broadly, white players - and will wait for the investigation to give its findings.

I suggest a "new angle" of looking at it is an obvious course to take if new information comes to light.

I haven't seen anyone suggest "it happened to everyone so it's ok" line.. merely saying it could mean it wasn't racially motivated.. if the reported is totally accurate it is still atrocious behaviour but not on the same level as racially atrocious behaviour.

 

[Mighty Lions]

I suggest a "new angle" of looking at it is an obvious course to take if new information comes to light.

I haven't seen anyone suggest "it happened to everyone so it's ok" line.. merely saying it could mean it wasn't racially motivated.. if the reported is totally accurate it is still atrocious behaviour but not on the same level as racially atrocious behaviour.

Yes it's atrocious behaviour IF TRUE and the whole story is reported accurately. Don't think that will happen though and cant see our coach & his family ever recovering from this.

 

[M Malice]

I've coached athletics, mostly boys, for over 25 years.

I've done a lot of coaching courses, and I'm internationally accredited. Even back in the 2000s coaching courses taught not to adopt a 'saver' mentality, you were the coach. Support and direct them to help, but establish professional boundaries.

The coaches who thought they had the next Olympic champion and the coaches trying to build/ advertise their businesses are the worst. They
hammer young athletes to the point of injury, push them to sacrifice everything for the future possiblity. Most of these kids drop out from over training/ injury/ pressure/ too much personal life interference. The ones who made it came from strong supportive environments, where the coaches worked with the families and schools/ universities/ workplaces to create a healthy environment for the individual athlete.

I did not and do not believe those coaches acted in 'the athletes best interest'. I believe they did it for their glory, their own competitive need to 'win', and their coaching careers, not the athletes.

They burn through so many athletes and when the performance falls away, the coaches discard them and move into the next one. So many athletes with unbelievable potential lost, and that should never have happened.

Same as the Hawks situation to me.

Maybe the AFL need to get Jelena Dokic to run sessions for coaches on the impact of a negative environment, and Ash Barty to contrast a positive environment.

Maybe in context the bolded could be what happened in the Clarkson/Fagan allegations.... or that is at least what Clarkson and/or Fagan in their mind thought they were doing.

Anyway I think I will now take BrizzyBandit s lead and bow out of this thread to concentrate on trade week, we are going round in circles.

 

[lioninthesand]

I give a painful account of my experience within my own family and you infer I could be racist??
That I'm competing over my indigenous connection??


So many indigenous people are stuck in a horrible cycle of trauma that can be traced back to when England took this country from them only a couple hundred years ago. My post was mostly about my anger at politicians not caring about First nation people... but scoring political points targeting afl coaches.... like that will fix anything.

I stand by my statement cause it's exactly what's happening.

Just lost a lot of respect I held for you.
To dismiss someone's experiance so you can do more virtue signalling is feral.
I have experianced amazing highs and joy and the darkest possible lows with my indigenous extended family. It's tough and beautiful at the same time.

Hey BB. Sorry I offended you. I didn’t read your post as the trauma exsisting in your family. I read it as ‘having indigenous family, I’ve seen or been exposed to how wider indigenous communities work’.

My comments were also more broadly about a comment the night before yours, encouraging people to come forward and prove they had more indigenous links than Fagan, to weight their standing againts Fagans in these issues. Something that was responded to and that I found pretty toxic.

I am sorry to hear your family has suffered any sort of trauma.

I also thought, on the basis your comment was about indigenous communities more broadly, it wasn’t desirable to make a comment about having indigenous connections, to then go onto make comments like ‘it’s a joke’ and the white accused are going to being ‘persecuted’, ‘to make us feel better’ etc is fairly degrading toward the alleged victims - before any findings have been made.

You want to claim I am virtue signalling go right ahead, I find the tone of your commentary on this topic to be pretty ugly, I haven’t lost any respect for you though.

You and I have strong opinions on a difficult subject.

I am sorry again for the offence I caused with relation to the trauma suffered to your family though.

 

[nup]

props to everyone being honest and open in this discussion. Its not easy and as a young Australian I hope we can get better at these discussions and ultimately in all of the situations across society where improvements can be made, because we will be at our best when we are together Indigenous and non-Indigenous.

 

[lioninthesand]

props to everyone being honest and open in this discussion. Its not easy and as a young Australian I hope we can get better at these discussions and ultimately in all of the situations across society where improvements can be made, because we will be at our best when we are together Indigenous and non-Indigenous.

Well said. I’m enjoying the convo, there are 2 strong sides with cemented ideologies on indigenous issues and we are all tribal in our position and defence of Fages to varying degrees, clearly - but, that is representative of Australia as a whole.

 

[Gadzorks]

props to everyone being honest and open in this discussion. Its not easy and as a young Australian I hope we can get better at these discussions and ultimately in all of the situations across society where improvements can be made, because we will be at our best when we are together Indigenous and non-Indigenous.

Looking beyond the Hawks situation, I think this thread has shown that while there is still a massive gap, people disapprove and reject behaviours that do not respect the individual. Whether indigenous or not.

Wonder what this thread would have looked like 20 years ago.

On Fagan - when ash McGrath left we had no indigenous players left on our list (there may have been someone in the larger squad). Fagan has changed that, and the current numbers indicate that we are providing a safe workplace for them.

 

[nup]

Looking beyond the Hawks situation, I think this thread has shown that while there is still a massive gap, people disapprove and reject behaviours that do not respect the individual. Whether indigenous or not.

Wonder what this thread would have looked like 20 years ago.

On Fagan - when ash McGrath left we had no indigenous players left on our list (there may have been someone in the larger squad). Fagan has changed that, and the current numbers indicate that we are providing a safe workplace for them.

For sure 20 years ago it would not have been good. Whatever the outcome of all of this agree Fagan is a leader and it will be a setback to lose him as our coach

 

[Saucery]

I've coached athletics, mostly boys, for over 25 years.

I've done a lot of coaching courses, and I'm internationally accredited. Even back in the 2000s coaching courses taught not to adopt a 'saver' mentality, you were the coach. Support and direct them to help, but establish professional boundaries.

The coaches who thought they had the next Olympic champion and the coaches trying to build/ advertise their businesses are the worst. They
hammer young athletes to the point of injury, push them to sacrifice everything for the future possiblity. Most of these kids drop out from over training/ injury/ pressure/ too much personal life interference. The ones who made it came from strong supportive environments, where the coaches worked with the families and schools/ universities/ workplaces to create a healthy environment for the individual athlete.

I did not and do not believe those coaches acted in 'the athletes best interest'. I believe they did it for their glory, their own competitive need to 'win', and their coaching careers, not the athletes.

They burn through so many athletes and when the performance falls away, the coaches discard them and move into the next one. So many athletes with unbelievable potential lost, and that should never have happened.

Same as the Hawks situation to me.

Maybe the AFL need to get Jelena Dokic to run sessions for coaches on the impact of a negative environment, and Ash Barty to contrast a positive environment.

We need more people like King Richard in sports:

King Richard: ‘super surreal’ lives of Williams sisters is stuff of Hollywood films

Will Smith stars as the father of the precocious tennis talents in a movie depicting their improbable journey

www.theguardian.com

 

[Saucery]

Well said. I’m enjoying the convo, there are 2 strong sides with cemented ideologies on indigenous issues and we are all tribal in our position and defence of Fages to varying degrees, clearly - but, that is representative of Australia as a whole.

Nothing grows in the shadows, the more we talk and surface things the better the chance we will find a way forward; together.

 

[Saucery]

For sure 20 years ago it would not have been good. Whatever the outcome of all of this agree Fagan is a leader and it will be a setback to lose him as our coach

Sadly in some quarters it still is 20 years ago, maybe 50, 70 etc.

And they would see us all return there if they get their way.

Be wary, rust never sleeps.

‘Socialism sucks’ stickers on display as CPAC Australia stokes fears of Indigenous voice

Speaker after speaker – after wheeling out standard complaints about progressive politicians – poured scorn on the voice concept

www.theguardian.com

 

[rye]

Sadly in some quarters it still is 20 years ago, maybe 50, 70 etc.

And they would see us all return there if they get their way.

Be wary, rust never sleeps.

‘Socialism sucks’ stickers on display as CPAC Australia stokes fears of Indigenous voice

Speaker after speaker – after wheeling out standard complaints about progressive politicians – poured scorn on the voice concept

www.theguardian.com

cpac has courted speakers who actively peddle white genocide tier nonsense, the fact lnp members are willing to speak at such an event says a lot imo......

 

[Saucery]

cpac has courted speakers who actively peddle white genocide tier nonsense, the fact lnp members are willing to speak at such an event says a lot imo......

As soon as you see Nigel Farage on the guest list you know it's for the loony wasp fringe

 

[nup]

The Australian wars on ABC at the moment is the kind of content coming out which is presenting the history in a way that is impossible to ignore, and will be useful in engaging with people with really conservative views that just lack understanding and education on things. There will be content creators/influencers/social commentators making inflammatory remarks on all sides, focus and patience will be required.

 

[Viceregal]

The Australian wars on ABC at the moment is the kind of content coming out which is presenting the history in a way that is impossible to ignore, and will be useful in engaging with people with really conservative views that just lack understanding and education on things. There will be content creators/influencers/social commentators making inflammatory remarks on all sides, focus and patience will be required.

btw I trust you realise that in your comment indicating that others might make inflammatory remarks and that patience will be needed that making a blanket statement that anyone who is a conservative by definition lacks understanding and just needs to be educated out of it (and by implication that only the liberal/progressive actually understands and is properly educated) might just be considered slightly inflammatory in an of itself and not exactly encouraging of inclusive debate?

It may be that you normally post on forums that are more liberally-bubbled and such blanket statements would match the bias of the general commentariat there (if you read back through this thread you might notice that there is a wider range of philosophies, world views, cultures etc with our one uniting characteristic being our passion for the Lions) but perhaps a slightly more nuanced approach here would be better...

 

[nup]

btw I trust you realise that in your comment indicating that others might make inflammatory remarks and that patience will be needed that making a blanket statement that anyone who is a conservative by definition lacks understanding and just needs to be educated out of it (and by implication that only the liberal/progressive actually understands and is properly educated) might just be considered slightly inflammatory in an of itself and not exactly encouraging of inclusive debate?

It may be that you normally post on forums that are more liberally-bubbled and such blanket statements would match the bias of the general commentariat there (if you read back through this thread you might notice that there is a wider range of philosophies, world views, cultures etc with our one uniting characteristic being our passion for the Lions) but perhaps a slightly more nuanced approach here would be better...

I'm more conservative, I was saying that in response to whoever saying that some of the people that went to cpac were really racist. I meant that when dealing with those people, focus and patience is required because they are trying to provoke, not all conservatives. Instead of 'really conservative' I should have figured out a better way to call out that subset of the overall conservative group. I wrote it in the context of not trying to label.one group or another, I don't see it as political issue but human issue

 

[martinson]

btw I trust you realise that in your comment indicating that others might make inflammatory remarks and that patience will be needed that making a blanket statement that anyone who is a conservative by definition lacks understanding and just needs to be educated out of it (and by implication that only the liberal/progressive actually understands and is properly educated) might just be considered slightly inflammatory in an of itself and not exactly encouraging of inclusive debate?

It may be that you normally post on forums that are more liberally-bubbled and such blanket statements would match the bias of the general commentariat there (if you read back through this thread you might notice that there is a wider range of philosophies, world views, cultures etc with our one uniting characteristic being our passion for the Lions) but perhaps a slightly more nuanced approach here would be better...

People have views that they have formed. It could be due to prejudice, dumbness or experience ,whatever. But beware the person who sees things solely one way or the other because usually they can't or haven't applied any intellectual rigor to their viewpoints.

There are good and bad people and many in between on both sides of politics. When you engage with SM you see so many who are ready to jump down your throat if you have a contrary view or even a balanced view.

It seems to be you're either with us or against us these days . You get historical takes on targets/heroes from history from many who were never even around when it was happening. With no context.

I sort of look at it all without too much interest tbh. You can come back in 20 years and the same ones with some reinforcements will be saying the same things . I was still in Primary school before Kennedy was shot. It was a time of core conservative values , prosperity in the Western world but an incredible optimism for the future. 60 years on and a lot has happened but no one much on either side of politics has been vindicated and I expect the same 60 years hence.

 

[Viceregal]

I'm more conservative, I was saying that in response to whoever saying that some of the people that went to cpac were really racist. I meant that when dealing with those people, focus and patience is required because they are trying to provoke, not all conservatives. Instead of 'really conservative' I should have figured out a better way to call out that subset of the overall conservative group. I wrote it in the context of not trying to label.one group or another, I don't see it as political issue but human issue

People have views that they have formed. It could be due to prejudice, dumbness or experience ,whatever. But beware the person who sees things solely one way or the other because usually they can't or haven't applied any intellectual rigor to their viewpoints.

There are good and bad people and many in between on both sides of politics. When you engage with SM you see so many who are ready to jump down your throat if you have a contrary view or even a balanced view.

It seems to be you're either with us or against us these days . You get historical takes on targets/heroes from history from many who were never even around when it was happening. With no context.

I sort of look at it all without too much interest tbh. You can come back in 20 years and the same ones with some reinforcements will be saying the same things . I was still in Primary school before Kennedy was shot. It was a time of core conservative values , prosperity in the Western world but an incredible optimism for the future. 60 years on and a lot has happened but no one much on either side of politics has been vindicated and I expect the same 60 years hence.

Thank you for replying but I will not be able to engage/respond or even fully comprehend ... this morning I took my 'meds' (just vitamins) then went to give my wife her ones and realised that I had taken hers ... very powerful meds only prescribed by psychiatrists that my GP would not give to anyone in those doses ... suffice to say that I am feeling 'interesting' and my mental capacity seems to be drifting so hopefully what I just typed made sense but didn't want you to think that the time you took to reply was not appreciated.

 

[nup]

Thank you for replying but I will not be able to engage/respond or even fully comprehend ... this morning I took my 'meds' (just vitamins) then went to give my wife her ones and realised that I had taken hers ... very powerful meds only prescribed by psychiatrists that my GP would not give to anyone in those doses ... suffice to say that I am feeling 'interesting' and my mental capacity seems to be drifting so hopefully what I just typed made sense but didn't want you to think that the time you took to reply was not appreciated.

i just read this properly after work, hope youre feelin better

 

[Hollow Knight]

The Australian wars on ABC at the moment is the kind of content coming out which is presenting the history in a way that is impossible to ignore, and will be useful in engaging with people with really conservative views that just lack understanding and education on things. There will be content creators/influencers/social commentators making inflammatory remarks on all sides, focus and patience will be required.

The Myall Creek Massacre is one of the depth studies we look at in modern history at the school I teach at.

It is stunning how many Australians are blissfully ignorant of this part of our history.

I’d like to say that is a failure of previous eras of our education but it was likely by design. A feature not a bug.