Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[martinson]

The Myall Creek Massacre is one of the depth studies we look at in modern history at the school I teach at.

It is stunning how many Australians are blissfully ignorant of this part of our history.

I’d like to say that is a failure of previous eras of our education but it was likely by design. A feature not a bug.

HK you're probably not aware but in Australian History at a Christian Brothers school in the '60's we we looked at the Myall creek massacre and others particularly in Tasmania. It's just my observation that Australians are overall ignorant about our history full stop. If you asked anyone who Blaxland ,Lawson and Wentworth were they couldn't tell you.

 

[Hollow Knight]

HK you're probably not aware but in Australian History at a Christian Brothers school in the '60's we we looked at the Myall creek massacre and others particularly in Tasmania. It's just my observation that Australians are overall ignorant about our history full stop. If you asked anyone who Blaxland ,Lawson and Wentworth were they couldn't tell you.

If I’m ever going to give the Catholic Church credit for anything, it is for embedding some semblance of social justice in aspects their education system.

 

[martinson]

If I’m ever going to give the Catholic Church credit for anything, it is for embedding some semblance of social justice in aspects their education system.

Most of the teachers who taught me had an incredible sense of social justice. I can remember writing essay after essay on the WAP. Got a n A in matric in Aus History and had no idea what I was talking about. Make of that what you will. Another area that we studied in depth was racism against the Chinese in the Gold Rush.

Sure there were sadists and pedos around but for the most part I was taught by good honest people who would be shocked if they knew of the full extent of what occurred. We all suffered in hindsight. It was an era where everything was covered up. Your parents or their friends never told you if they had cancer.

It's easy to look back and highlight the terrible things that did go on , that's what you do in hindsight. People trusted anyone in authority in those days. I know of shocking things that occurred through the trust parents took in the police, doctors, vets . The issue of child abuse ,racism ,whatever else was spread more across the community than people make out. One of my siblings has a practice that encompasses child protection and the things she tells me that go on under everyone's nose in the community now are still completely under reported and not understood.

But I digress. The '60's was an era of great social change and racism , social justice , the environment , were at the forefront.

To think everyone has just woken up now is nonsense but what it does show is how little we have progressed in many ways.

 

[Jivlain]

The Myall Creek Massacre is one of the depth studies we look at in modern history at the school I teach at.

It is stunning how many Australians are blissfully ignorant of this part of our history.

I’d like to say that is a failure of previous eras of our education but it was likely by design. A feature not a bug.

The complete history of the world:

1. Gallipoli
2. Medieval England
3. Gallipoli
4. Industrial revolution, causing
5. Gallipoli
6. European colonisation of Australia, leading to
7. Gallipoli
8. European exploration of Australia, and discovery of
9. Gallipoli
10. Gold rush
11. Gallipoli
12. Working class conditions in 19th C Australian cities; Mary McKillop
13. Gallipoli
14. The extremely well-organised retreat from Gallipoli
15. INTERFET operations in Gallipoli
16. Saddam Hussein stockpiles weapons of mass destruction in Gallipoli

Can't think of anything else of substance that may have ever occurred

 

[martinson]

The complete history of the world:

1. Gallipoli
2. Meieval England
3. Gallipoli
4. Industrial revolution, causing
5. Gallipoli
6. European colonisation of Australia, leading to
7. Gallipoli
8. European exploration of Australia, and discovery of
9. Gallipoli
10. Gold rush
11. Gallipoli
12. Working class conditions in 19th C Australian cities; Mary McKillop
13. Gallipoli
14. The extremely well-organised retreat from Gallipoli
15. INTERFET operations in Gallipoli
16. Saddam Hussein stockpiles weapons of mass destruction in Gallipoli

Can't think of anything else of substance that may have ever occurred

Gallipoli is embedded in the psyche of this country because of the hopelessness of being led to the slaughter by toffs from another country , and doing so gloriously. I can't ever remember studying it at school at all. But I do remember Mary McKillop.

I had a Granddad at Gallipoli. I had 3 uncles in Changi. Another on the Kokoda trail.

None of them thought it was anything good.

Satirising any of it is totally pathetic imo. Obviously you were never affected.

 

[Sausages]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/news/hawthorn-racism-review-afl-closing-in-on-appointing-the-fourperson-panel-to-investigate-allegations/news-story/3725d46ee3882f2b3fba3056a5bc878b

The AFL is finally closing in on appointing the four members of its panel to investigate allegations of wrongdoing to Hawthorn First Nations players nearly two weeks after the damaging story broke.
The league hopes to finalise the panel this week, but indigenous barrister Tim Goodwin and a senior lawyer already working on an ongoing AFL inquiry are likely to be involved.

Kings counsel Bernard Quinn is expected to lead the four-person panel, which will delve into accusations against Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan.


2 down then....

 

[Jivlain]

Gallipoli is embedded in the psyche of this country because of the hopelessness of being led to the slaughter by toffs from another country , and doing so gloriously. I can't ever remember studying it at school at all. But I do remember Mary McKillop.

I had a Granddad at Gallipoli. I had 3 uncles in Changi. Another on the Kokoda trail.

None of them thought it was anything good.

Satirising any of it is totally pathetic imo. Obviously you were never affected.

Going to be honest, it's pretty weird to regard this as satirising "Gallipoli" rather than "the Howard-era educational system's obsessive focus on this period to the absolute exclusion of every other topic in history"

 

[martinson]

Going to be honest, it's pretty weird to regard this as satirising "Gallipoli" rather than "the Howard-era educational system's obsessive focus on this period to the absolute exclusion of every other topic in history"

Mate you're just nuts . The 'Howard era' was over 15 years ago. My kids knew nothing of Gallipoli except a few family photos and they got a holiday where lots of people went over to Turkey for a dawn service.

You're completely off kilter on this.

 

[Jivlain]

Mate you're just nuts . The 'Howard era' was over 15 years ago. My kids knew nothing of Gallipoli except a few family photos and they got a holiday where lots of people went over to Turkey for a dawn service.

You're completely off kilter on this.

That was the period in which I went to school, and pretty representative of the coverage I got

(I thought ending on Powell's rationale for war was something of a giveaway)

It's good that this is different now.

Anyway, we're getting very off-topic.

 

[dlanod]

The complete history of the world:

1. Gallipoli
2. Meieval England
3. Gallipoli
4. Industrial revolution, causing
5. Gallipoli
6. European colonisation of Australia, leading to
7. Gallipoli
8. European exploration of Australia, and discovery of
9. Gallipoli
10. Gold rush
11. Gallipoli
12. Working class conditions in 19th C Australian cities; Mary McKillop
13. Gallipoli
14. The extremely well-organised retreat from Gallipoli
15. INTERFET operations in Gallipoli
16. Saddam Hussein stockpiles weapons of mass destruction in Gallipoli

Can't think of anything else of substance that may have ever occurred

Wow, you got Medieval England? Other than that it checks out.

 

[western royboy]

If I’m ever going to give the Catholic Church credit for anything, it is for embedding some semblance of social justice in aspects their education system.

And then burn it when it comes to dealing with victims of their priests and brothers, the only thing it taught me was the literal meaning of hypocrisy

 

[Hollow Knight]

And then burn it when it comes to dealing with victims of their priests and brothers, the only thing it taught me was the literal meaning of hypocrisy

I'm definitely not going to argue with you on that.

Hope you're doing okay.

 

[trikster]

"In a statement released on Tuesday, the league announced it had appointed senior lawyer Bernard Quinn KC to lead the independent investigation and will be joined by barristers Jacqualyn Turfrey, Tim Goodwin and Julie Buxton."

 

[lioninthesand]

Are the alleged victims involved? No one is speaking about that?

The panel and process is pointless without them.

 

[Saucery]

"In a statement released on Tuesday, the league announced it had appointed senior lawyer Bernard Quinn KC to lead the independent investigation and will be joined by barristers Jacqualyn Turfrey, Tim Goodwin and Julie Buxton."

"The panel will be assisted by law firm Gordon Legal, at which former Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon is a Senior Partner."

So much for independence from the AFL.

And:

"The AFL also revealed it “does not know the identities of the persons / families who have recalled their accounts within the Hawthorn Football Club review or with the journalist who published those accounts.”

“The AFL has repeatedly requested this information from their lawyers to assist in the good conduct of the investigation and related processes, which has been declined.”

Yes because it sooooo normal for journalists to just reveal their sources, but of course the AFL spin this as being obstructed in providing "good conduct of the instigation", an investigation which they claim on the other hand is independent of them.

AFL announces four-person panel for investigation into Hawks racism allegations

AFL announces four-person panel for investigation into Hawks racism allegations

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Cubs2Lions]

The complete history of the world:

1. Gallipoli
2. Medieval England
3. Gallipoli
4. Industrial revolution, causing
5. Gallipoli
6. European colonisation of Australia, leading to
7. Gallipoli
8. European exploration of Australia, and discovery of
9. Gallipoli
10. Gold rush
11. Gallipoli
12. Working class conditions in 19th C Australian cities; Mary McKillop
13. Gallipoli
14. The extremely well-organised retreat from Gallipoli
15. INTERFET operations in Gallipoli
16. Saddam Hussein stockpiles weapons of mass destruction in Gallipoli

Can't think of anything else of substance that may have ever occurred

I

 

[Squizz89]

 

[Sausages]

Look, I'm sympathetic to the First Nations' people making the claim.

But if to this point they are STILL refusing to identify themselves to the AFL, I confess to wondering exactly when they'll start dealing with this outcome reasonably?

I understand they fell isolated, abandoned, marginalised etc etc.....but, at some point, they have to stop sabotaging the process and put the fiery rhetoric to one side and knuckle down to grind out an outcome they are satisfied with.

To continue to demand things "on their terms" simply makes a mockery of the very justice they are seeking.

If they don't trust the HFC or the AFL....WHY PARTICIPATE IN THE GODDAMN REVIEW TO START WITH? Why not just go straight to the ABC and do the job from there?

Again, I state - I understand power imblance etc etc...but * me....none of their actions make any sene aside from trying to do the most harm possible at every opportunity.

 

[Saucery]

Look, I'm sympathetic to the First Nations' people making the claim.

But if to this point they are STILL refusing to identify themselves to the AFL, I confess to wondering exactly when they'll start dealing with this outcome reasonably?

I understand they fell isolated, abandoned, marginalised etc etc.....but, at some point, they have to stop sabotaging the process and put the fiery rhetoric to one side and knuckle down to grind out an outcome they are satisfied with.

To continue to demand things "on their terms" simply makes a mockery of the very justice they are seeking.

If they don't trust the HFC or the AFL....WHY PARTICIPATE IN THE GODDAMN REVIEW TO START WITH? Why not just go straight to the ABC and do the job from there?

Again, I state - I understand power imblance etc etc...but * me....none of their actions make any sene aside from trying to do the most harm possible at every opportunity.

We've been over this many times Saus, the people who are conducting the enquire will reasonably want to know who they are, if they are willing to come forward.

There is NO need for the AFL or HFC, bodies at risk of civil legal action or being dragged before the Australian Human Rights Commission to know right now. And when you see the AFL has already inserted people with AFL connections into the review:

"The panel will be assisted by law firm Gordon Legal, at which former Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon is a Senior Partner."

I think they are right to doubt the authentisity of the AFL's motives.

The Federal government has already told Gil they will step in if he doesn't achieve a visibly independent review, indeed the AFLPA said the same.

 

[ZoBlitz]

I don't think the AFL have ever set up an inquiry or review that they haven't rigged to get the required outcome, historically.

 

[Sausages]

We've been over this many times Saus, the people who are conducting the enquire will reasonably want to know who they are, if they are willing to come forward.

There is NO need for the AFL or HFC, bodies at risk of civil legal action or being dragged before the Australian Human Right Commission to know right now. And when you see the AFL has already inserted people with AFL connections into the review:

"The panel will be assisted by law firm Gordon Legal, at which former Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon is a Senior Partner."

I think they are right to doubt the authentisity of the AFL's motives.

The Federal government has already told Gil they will step in if he doesn't achieve a visibly independent review, indeed the AFLPA said the same.

I don't think the AFL have ever set up an inquiry or review that they haven't rigged.

I know dudes, I know - I am trying to look at this equitably, I really am.

But, what do you want more?

To wreck s**t?

Or to rectify s**t?

(That question is for the complainants, not you chaps )

Putting Gordon Legal on = BAD MOVE, for sure, totally agree.

If the goal, right now, is for a totally AFL-independent enquiry, then state that clearly and unequivocably. But to potter about for a few days, wait for the AFL to come forward with something, and then carry on like a pack of muppets, just makes you look infantile.

State your case, your facts, in whatever forum you feel is most suited.If you know what forum you wish that to be, then state it.

Continuing with this utterly tedious piecemeal approach to an outcome achieves nothing positive.

 

[Gadzorks]

Look, I'm sympathetic to the First Nations' people making the claim.

But if to this point they are STILL refusing to identify themselves to the AFL, I confess to wondering exactly when they'll start dealing with this outcome reasonably?

I understand they fell isolated, abandoned, marginalised etc etc.....but, at some point, they have to stop sabotaging the process and put the fiery rhetoric to one side and knuckle down to grind out an outcome they are satisfied with.

To continue to demand things "on their terms" simply makes a mockery of the very justice they are seeking.

If they don't trust the HFC or the AFL....WHY PARTICIPATE IN THE GODDAMN REVIEW TO START WITH? Why not just go straight to the ABC and do the job from there?

Again, I state - I understand power imblance etc etc...but * me....none of their actions make any sene aside from trying to do the most harm possible at every opportunity.

Angry people with wrecked lives lashing out?

 

[Sausages]

Angry people with wrecked lives lashing out?

I dunno Zorks, I really don't.

I'll be brutally honest here and say my biggest fear is that the representation given to the complainants might wreck everything.

I want both parties to be given full and equal rights at all times, and that this MUST be visible to public perspective.

The motives of the AFL etc (inc Fages) are obvious and reasonably clear.

But the motives of the complainants seems at times misguided.

If you have no faith in an AFL appointed panel BEFORE it is announced, as many of you allege would be wise, then submit your own panel. Don't dither about like muppets If you have the cannons, fire those *ers off.

 

[Nunez]

If not the AFL, who is paying for it?

 

[Saucery]

I know dudes, I know - I am trying to look at this equitably, I really am.

But, what do you want more?

To wreck s**t?

Or to rectify s**t?

(That question is for the complainants, not you chaps )

Putting Gordon Legal on = BAD MOVE, for sure, totally agree.

If the goal, right now, is for a totally AFL-independent enquiry, then state that clearly and unequivocably. But to potter about for a few days, wait for the AFL to come forward with something, and then carry on like a pack of muppets, just makes you look infantile.

State your case, your facts, in whatever forum you feel is most suited.If you know what forum you wish that to be, then state it.

Continuing with this utterly tedious piecemeal approach to an outcome achieves nothing positive.

Calling people infantile doesn't add anything to your argument, the need for a totally AFL independent enquiry has been advocated by several Federal Government Ministers and the AFLPA weeks ago so I don't know how you missed that.

I am not here to state facts, so far I have seen none and my only case is if the AFL has too much influence on the outcomes then they will be forever tainted, as will those involved.

Did you consider that having the AFL trying to spin what ever happened for it's own good, and Gil's reputation may not be in Fagan's best interest?