Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[notliondown]

the contrary is believing currently unfounded accusations that in no way reflects anything public of Clarko and fagan anyone has ever seen, they must be fantastic actors if you believe them to be some sort of extreme racists

i dont get why any poster here would need to display loyalty to fagan. as far as im aware none of us personally know him with the possible exception of mighty lions.

at the end of the day the fagan we know is the projection of the man he puts forward in public. it is the same as any other public figure / influencer type. who they are when nobody is looking could be an entirely different character to this. to show loyalty to a figure in a position like this is imo rather silly regardless of their achievements

The issue that's arising is thinking that others should have the same beliefs that we do.

I suspect few if any here know Chris Fagan on such a personal level that they could accurately assess his demeanor away from the public role with 100% certainty. And believing the public projection of anyone in the mainstream/social media completely is a recipe for getting hurt. That's not to point any issue of blame, but it's a bit like the media raving about his love of vinyl and over the years it's proven that perhaps it wasn't as all encompassing as it was initially made out to be. We see what we want to see... and are more or less told to see by what it presented to us.

Similarly completely believing the accusers without them now having to prove those accusations and provide evidence of the claims is also troublesome.

This is not a black and white issue. It's OK for people to see this in all shades of grey and to fall either side of the middle ground because of who they are, and because of their own experiences and beliefs.

To be honest I think most here are simply asking that the accusations be taken seriously and let a process play out. That's not apportioning blame or guilt that's being open to every possibility regardless of how unimaginable it may seem.

I'm not sure that's something people deserve to be criticised or made feel bad for.

 

[Clarkythelion]

It's very difficult to see Clarkson and Fagan fronting up to anyone's place in the manner described and saying the things that are alleged. That's to anybody ,let alone a vulnerable indigenous player. Whatever their character and the moral issues involved I don't think they'd be that stupid.

Perhaps I'll end up being very disappointed and gutted actually if that's not the case. The Courts are full of people who recollect the same thing and have polar opposite versions of what occurred and was said so if that happens you wouldn't be surprised. But as I understand it Fagan has told people anecdotally none of it happened.

These are just opinions and speculation of mine which I'm prepared to be wrong about because like everyone else we just don't know. And it was relatively a fair while ago. Right now I'm confused and concerned for all involved on both sides if this becomes a real fight about the truth.

I agree with you it's difficult to see that being said in the way it has been published given what we know of Fagan at least. But time will tell, we all need to sit and let this play out.

I absolutely think the conversations happened in some context. To any young player distracted in any club. The players might have asked for hep and been given a list of options, and then chose one which later seemed at odds with their community or saving face with their ex-partners at an emotional time. The players most definitely would have been told to "shape up or ship out" that I believe it is a conversation had in clubs, businesses and corporations across Australia every day of the week. I know when I started work and took a sicky the day after our Grand final win I most definitely got sat down and read the riot act, not that dis-similar in threats.

 

[McIvor]

I agree in a commercial world that would happen, I've seen it happen with very senior executives sent off to the US to do a degree in something at UNI. In the AFL world, not so much as Fagan's salary is part of the 'soft' cap, anything they pay him means less the off field group gets paid in their salary cap. This whole situation doesn't end well for some people, the players, those that did the interviews or their coaches. It's a mess we will hear about most likely for years, the fight will not be short. Maybe the AFL will do something 'special' North Melbourne can't get stuck with Clarkson's contract for 5 years. You being in HR would know, it's unlikely they have a clause in his contract to be able to terminate it on something from his past like this.

James Hird being sent off to the prestigious INSEAD in France and having his entire MBA (USD $150K perhaps more) and you'd expect his accommodation / airfares / living expenses paid for when he was stood down from Essendon following there drugs scandal is one very similar example to the bolded I can think of. Similalry, I knew someone related to one of these AFL female staffers that had been having an affair with one of Gil's execs had a Masters program at Melbounre Uni paid for while they "investigated" the matter.

 

[Tom14]

Can I ask why? I'm sure there are a lot of things that go on at clubs that not all staff know about.

He was the director of coaching, and as I understand was responsible for overseeing the coaches (including the development coach/manager who seems to be at the centre of this) - if he didn't know, and it occurred, I don't think that looks good as someone with that kind of responsibility.

Would that be something that would preclude him from coaching us again? I'm not sure and it would be a very tough position.

 

[Section 5]

Hi western royboy and martinson I think I can frame a response a little better, having slept on it.

From my perspective, what has been alleged falls under human rights violations, not under the umbrella of “illegally trying to gain an advantage over the opposition”.

So I do not understand the calls for competition sanctions.

I do agree Hawthorn need to answer for these actions, but I don’t know in what manner their “punishment” or reparations should look like.

It is a mess and we are all guessing about certain things
In the Fages coach thread i replied to one of your posts 1747.
I indicated that the AFL should grant an exemption to our soft cap should we have to pay out or continue to pay Fagan
This amount could be recovered by the AFL via reducing the Hawthorn soft cap accordingly
The AFL may not do either.

EDIT: Could even come out of the AFL distribution monies handed out each year No one would even notice Ha Ha

But the Lions and North should not be punished for what occured at the Hawks

 

[Section 5]

Article with some quotes from Phil Egan the author of the Hawthorn Review
The first i think that we have heard from him

EDIT: I wish they would write these articals so it is an easier read
They have mixed up both of what Egan said and what has previously been mentioned in the ABC Article
How easy would it be to just do Egan first, then finish up with the other ABC report

Author of Hawthorn review says alleged mistreatment of Indigenous players ‘like a nightmare’

Phil Egan says he has not heard anything like those allegations before at a football club and there should now be an audit of all clubs

www.theguardian.com

 

[RoyBoy17]

My understanding is that Russell Jackson didn't leak/release the external report commissioned by Hawthorn, instead he got wind of the contents and sought out interviews from several past First Nations Hawthorn players, thus his published article is their personal accounts as relayed to him.

The Journalist in question specializes in cases regarding Sexual Abuse and Racial Injustice, he isn't some unethical ambulance chaser writing hit pieces for hire. I find it very ironic that many have asked for Fagan to be given the benefit of the doubt and to suspend judgement, yet there are those here who don't afford Russell Jackson the same, despite having a very credible resume.

Once again, I highly doubt there would be so much antagonism against Russell Jackson's reporting if the issue didn't involve the club.

I don’t know why we blow wind up this guys backside. He still didn’t get both sides of the story. Fact.

We profess that this guy is all about justice and equality, yet he hasn’t afford it to both sides. Respect all human beings equal and afford natural justice to all parties. He hasn’t done that.

We can spin it any which way we want. He made a half baked attempt to contact Fagan and even his justification for that is completely amateur and cringeworthy. I couldn’t care less what this guy has done in the past with this writing. He also has his own agenda.

 

[Section 5]

So going through the article this is what Egan said or was related to him. I could have missed something
Egan has not disclosed any further information apart from a personal view of what was discovered
.......
The author of a damaging review into Hawthorn Football Club that contained allegations of serious mistreatment of First Nations former players has described the findings as “like a nightmare”.

The club engaged consultant Phil Egan, a former Richmond player, to conduct an external review of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people’s experiences with the Hawks. The review will not be publicly released but the ABC has reported some of its findings.

Egan said hearing the allegations was “very distressing”.

“To hear and see the trauma as it was personally conveyed to me was like a nightmare,” he said.

“Find your grandkids and kids … hug them and tell them every day how important they are and how much you love them.”

Egan said he had not heard anything like those stories before at a football club, but pointed to the racism Aboriginal people experienced under the Aboriginal Protection Board, one of the bodies responsible for the stolen generations.

“I was born on Manatunga Reserve in Robinvale; Protection Board policies ruled and controlled our lives as a people,” he said.

Egan said there should now be an audit of all clubs.

 

[mighty_lions]

So going through the article this is what Egan said or was related to him. I could have missed something
Egan has not disclosed any further information apart from a personal view of what was discovered
.......
The author of a damaging review into Hawthorn Football Club that contained allegations of serious mistreatment of First Nations former players has described the findings as “like a nightmare”.

The club engaged consultant Phil Egan, a former Richmond player, to conduct an external review of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people’s experiences with the Hawks. The review will not be publicly released but the ABC has reported some of its findings.

Egan said hearing the allegations was “very distressing”.

“To hear and see the trauma as it was personally conveyed to me was like a nightmare,” he said.

“Find your grandkids and kids … hug them and tell them every day how important they are and how much you love them.”

Egan said he had not heard anything like those stories before at a football club, but pointed to the racism Aboriginal people experienced under the Aboriginal Protection Board, one of the bodies responsible for the stolen generations.

“I was born on Manatunga Reserve in Robinvale; Protection Board policies ruled and controlled our lives as a people,” he said.

Egan said there should now be an audit of all clubs.

what a way to sensationalise

 

[briztoon]

It’s a workplace issue - they (the employer) will be dealt with on that basis - Hawthorn will be sanctioned if proven

What might such sanctions look like?

 

[Hollow Knight]

What might such sanctions look like?

Predominantly financial I would assume.

 

[Stars align]

I'm with you, the man is innocent until proven guilty. My partner is a lawyer and she says, as is, it's just someone accusing him with no concrete details yet provided. The club have stood him aside on full pay just like a police person is stood aside on full pay until investigated. If the case falls over, is retracted, is not definitive then he has his job back even with a stain on his name. Do we, any of us really know him? I think even if he can't clear his name he will probably resign anyway rather than damage the club.

I can’t see Clarkson or Fagan seeking a retraction that usually is printed on pg 10

 

[Gadzorks]

That too is legally correct but if it were for instance communicated to a third party who was simply then aware of the contents there's not much of a case for damages.

With 2 reports going around , one published and the other 'harrowing' but with no accusers named and now fronting up to a full 'inquiry' the lawyers will be burning the midnight oil trying to sort out how the accused proceed both for their own personal sanity and for whatever legal action can be taken.

This will go on for years unless there's a gamebreaker that emerges from nowhere and I don't say that lightly.

One assistant coach and one player manager are supporting at least some of the things in the reports.

 

[Gadzorks]

I'm furious with the system that has allowed room for the

AFL has let a lot go because they think sport is different to other professions. It isn't.

If clubs AND THE AFL had done what every other industry did 20 years ago and set up policies and support networks for struggling employees, processes for handling conflicts, safe spaces for people to report their experiences we wouldn't be in this bloody mess.

But none of that helps the fact that in our window we are getting screwed over by the AFL entitled boys club that Kennett was a part of.

The AFL have to find a way to fix us and North, and it's going to take a lot of hard work and a lot of their money. And it needs to happen now.

 

[Zacs_Magic_Tooth]

Did one of the other assistant coaches already corroborate some of the accusations?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Supposedly. But like the rest of the reporting to date, no one knows what was corroborated or by who

 

[Quested]

Simple solution has to be bring Noble in on a 12 month contract, with a strong statement that he is keeping Fages seat warm and Fages is still the head coach. I think that much of our trade and draft activity is already squared away (some of it probably not announced yet), but this would provide stability across the board without painting Fages as guilty. Then if it transpires that he was in fact complicit, we extend Noble's contract or take our time finding someone else.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Simple solution has to be bring Noble in on a 12 month contract, with a strong statement that he is keeping Fages seat warm and Fages is still the head coach.

Not so simple if Noble doesn't want to do it. It's a pretty shit deal for him, especially when he seemingly has a new goal (being part of the 2032 Olympics organisation).

 

[Nuggo]

Simple solution has to be bring Noble in on a 12 month contract, with a strong statement that he is keeping Fages seat warm and Fages is still the head coach. I think that much of our trade and draft activity is already squared away (some of it probably not announced yet), but this would provide stability across the board without painting Fages as guilty. Then if it transpires that he was in fact complicit, we extend Noble's contract or take our time finding someone else.

I don't believe that will create a stable environment required. Plus why would Noble be happy being a fill in. I assume he is making plans for his own career. Also what has Noble achieved to suggest he is coaching material.

 

[Squizz89]

I’ve warmed to the idea of Brad Scott if we do make a clean break and are looking for a full time replacement. Took a pretty * list at North to a couple of prelims.

I think at this stage the most likely option is we just appoint one of the assistants on an interim basis. That obviously could change the longer this plays out.

 

[McIvor]

The AFL have to find a way to fix us and North, and it's going to take a lot of hard work and a lot of their money. And it needs to happen now.

Why would they; us and North would easily be in the bottom four clubs that the AFL actually gives a crap about?

 

[martinson]

It's hard to see Fagan being available inside 12 months at a bare minimum.

It's highly likely an interim will be appointed from within.

I wonder how the players are feeling. As a club it's our priority to get the best option available for them so that their careers aren't disrupted and we remain in contention near the top of the list.

What I would prefer to happen would sound too harsh at this juncture so let's see what plays out over the next couple of weeks and the trade period.

 

[western royboy]

What might such sanctions look like?

Up to the AFL Commission to decide, could have WorkSafe go through for a look as well

 

[Hollow Knight]

Up to the AFL Commission to decide, could have WorkSafe go through for a look as well

Not much faith in WorkSafe tbh. Didn't they give the Crows the all-clear after their camp?

 

[LionsMaw]

I'm furious with the system that has allowed room for the

AFL has let a lot go because they think sport is different to other professions. It isn't.

If clubs AND THE AFL had done what every other industry did 20 years ago and set up policies and support networks for struggling employees, processes for handling conflicts, safe spaces for people to report their experiences we wouldn't be in this bloody mess.

But none of that helps the fact that in our window we are getting screwed over by the AFL entitled boys club that Kennett was a part of.

The AFL have to find a way to fix us and North, and it's going to take a lot of hard work and a lot of their money. And it needs to happen now.

Why do the AFL need to fix us?? We aren't broken.

 

[Section 5]

what a way to sensationalise

Yes
Anyone late to the issue reading the article could easily think all that's mentioned came out of the review.